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Mask of the Betrayer '15

Joined
Dec 17, 2013
Messages
5,110
Holy shit, I started playing MotB yesterday, and I don't know if I can do it. The camera and world layout are so annoying...

Considering how many good camera options there are in RPGs (first person, third person over the shoulder, isometric), why the fuck would anyone think that doing the NWN/NWN2 thing with rotating camera would be a good idea? Did their play-testers tell them that fighting with the camera for 90% of the time makes it great? And the best part is, for MotB, they added like 2 extra camera modes, each with its own annoying bullshit... It's like they went, hey if something is shit, we will fix it by making more of it!
 

Nano

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Mar 6, 2016
Messages
4,648
Grab the Codex by the pussy Strap Yourselves In
Holy shit, I started playing MotB yesterday, and I don't know if I can do it. The camera and world layout are so annoying...

Considering how many good camera options there are in RPGs (first person, third person over the shoulder, isometric), why the fuck would anyone think that doing the NWN/NWN2 thing with rotating camera would be a good idea? Did their play-testers tell them that fighting with the camera for 90% of the time makes it great? And the best part is, for MotB, they added like 2 extra camera modes, each with its own annoying bullshit... It's like they went, hey if something is shit, we will fix it by making more of it!

tbh I thought it was pretty easy to play. Just takes a bit of getting used to. What I did find annoying is that I couldn't use third person mode because of Okku obstructing my view. Not sure if that was a bug or whatever.
 

Rivmusique

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Mar 14, 2011
Messages
3,489
Location
Kangarooland
Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire
Is there something wrong with NWN2 camera? This hasn't come up before, can you elaborate on what you're bothered by that everyone else missed back then?
 
Joined
Dec 17, 2013
Messages
5,110
So, been playing Mask of the Betrayer for the last few days. I originally started with it, hoping to spare myself the pain of NWN2's camera, but there were some references to the original game's lore, and it just didn't feel right starting with an expansion pack. So I went ahead and played through the entire NWN2 first, and now well into MotB.

I am loving it. The camera and the controls still suck ass, but at least unlike NWN2, they actually designed decently sized and somewhat open ended maps for this (90% of maps in NWN2 felt like small corridors). Combat is pretty shit as it usually tends to be on the wrong side of epic levels in D&D, but holy shit, the writing is so good. This expansion definitely feels like Planescape: Torment's younger brother, not quite as big, and not quite as good, but definitely in the same vein. Very cool Forgotten Realms mythology hooks and mature themes, with the only issue being, the main plot is a bit too telegraphed. I haven't finished it yet, so maybe there are some plot twists later on, but so far, you can sort of tell how things will unfurl very early on, whereas PS:T was much more mysterious. Still, really enjoying this, a real masterpiece of story-faggotry.
 

Turjan

Arcane
Joined
Mar 31, 2008
Messages
5,047
Now that I had finished NWN2 OC a few days ago, I finally felt ready to play this. This is so much better. Some parts were really great. I finally understand why this is so highly regarded here, despite the wrangling with camera and pathfinding.
 
Joined
Mar 27, 2013
Messages
3,914
Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire
Umm, I just tried to enchant a weapon with some Energy Essence, however the weapon stats became worse after that.
That didn't happen with Water Essence before.
What am I missing here?
 

Orobis

Arcane
Sychophantic Noob
Joined
Aug 8, 2015
Messages
1,066
Pity such a great expansion is shackled to one of the worst game engines of all time. Would kill to see a remake of MotB on a better engine.
 
Self-Ejected

Lilura

RPG Codex Dragon Lady
Joined
Feb 13, 2013
Messages
5,274
And the best part is, for MotB, they added like 2 extra camera modes, each with its own annoying bullshit... It's like they went, hey if something is shit, we will fix it by making more of it!

Most of the cam issues were fixed if you use Strategy cam in free cam mode with ceilings off and marquee select on. It's not perfect, but it's as good cam n control gets (short of modding).
 
Joined
Dec 17, 2013
Messages
5,110
Most of the cam issues were fixed if you use Strategy cam in free cam mode with ceilings off and marquee select on. It's not perfect, but it's as good cam n control gets (short of modding).

Thanks, but too late now. I finished it a while back. I played it with the exploration mode. Dragon Age: Origins does such a better job with a similar engine/gameplay with its default exploration mode which is like a 3rd person over the shoulder view, that you can scroll into an overhead view for party combat if needed.
 
Self-Ejected

Lilura

RPG Codex Dragon Lady
Joined
Feb 13, 2013
Messages
5,274
Time to finally continue my aspie recounting of this campaign. It's been over a year since I wrote that, and I still have my saves.
Motivational pics:

priest.jpg


exorcize%2Bfurnace.jpg
 
Self-Ejected

Lilura

RPG Codex Dragon Lady
Joined
Feb 13, 2013
Messages
5,274
Storyfaggotry, C&C and spirit-eater mechanics aside, it's quite impressive how they managed to optimize this campaign over all others, with regard to framerate and loadtimes. It's just a pity a few quirks still have to rear their ugly heads, on occasion: f.e, two NPCs occupying the same position...

 
Self-Ejected

Lilura

RPG Codex Dragon Lady
Joined
Feb 13, 2013
Messages
5,274
I love SoZ, but it certainly has major weaknesses. Its framerates and loadtimes are comparatively atrocious, too.

I have written EZ to digest pro-tips for SoZ. If you ever return to the campaign, it's a good read to get the ball rolling.
 

Lacrymas

Arcane
Joined
Sep 23, 2015
Messages
17,949
Pathfinder: Wrath
I like SoZ, too. Which is a weird realization now that I think about it. I like the gameplay and the overland map, it's actually fun to explore rather than annoying. I don't get the point of cohorts though, I don't remember if they have some "story" attached to them? Maybe it gets a bit weird when you go to Crossroad Keep and you have to manage trade routs or something to that effect. It's extraneous and bizarre.
 

Black

Arcane
Joined
May 8, 2007
Messages
1,872,592
I appreciate SoZ for the many improvements it brought (overland travel and overland skills, party dialogue). Too bad Obsidian ditched those ideas immediately after SoZ.
 
Joined
Mar 27, 2013
Messages
3,914
Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire
Except for party dialogue (which really is incline) I didn't really like SoZ that much.
Not that it outright sucks, but I didn't manage to really have a "emotional relationship" with the game.
Now MotB is a wholly different thing. I finished it today, and boy is it top 5 material! Jesus Christ! Even competing for my third place with both KotoRs (inb4 :gd:).
 
Joined
Dec 17, 2013
Messages
5,110
Dude... If MotB is in your top 5, you need to play MOAR RPGs. :) Don't get me wrong, it's a hell of an expansion, but it is an expansion (pretty short and suffering from the many issues of NWN2 as well as some of its own), and not as good as PS:T in various ways.

Lacrymas Love your profile pic, cause Kaelyn was my favorite companion. That's actually one of my issues with MotB, that you can't really unwind that path all the way, the noble path of working with Kaelyn to break down the wall not to save yourself or Akachi, but because it's such a cruelty that needs to go. At some point that new god of death dude-man just goes fuck off, you aint doing this today. I would've preferred something really epic where you tear it down and then unleash some kind of a cataclysm with all kinds of unexpected consequences.
 
Joined
Mar 27, 2013
Messages
3,914
Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire
Dude... If MotB is in your top 5, you need to play MOAR RPGs. :) Don't get me wrong, it's a hell of an expansion, but it is an expansion (pretty short and suffering from the many issues of NWN2 as well as some of its own), and not as good as PS:T in various ways.
Well, I think I've played my fair share, at least the "newer" (meaning since Infinity engine) ones.
It's just that I love certain games the Codex doesn't seem to approve of; I even kinda liked the NWN2 OC. :codexisfor:
But yeah, if only PC games count PS:T is actually my #2, so there's that.

Lacrymas Love your profile pic, cause Kaelyn was my favorite companion. That's actually one of my issues with MotB, that you can't really unwind that path all the way, the noble path of working with Kaelyn to break down the wall not to save yourself or Akachi, but because it's such a cruelty that needs to go. At some point that new god of death dude-man just goes fuck off, you aint doing this today. I would've preferred something really epic where you tear it down and then unleash some kind of a cataclysm with all kinds of unexpected consequences.
Oh, so you can't pull it off then?
I was totally defending dat wall so I wouldn't know. But that's indeed a bit suboptimal if you can't do it.
 
Self-Ejected

Lilura

RPG Codex Dragon Lady
Joined
Feb 13, 2013
Messages
5,274
Dude... If MotB is in your top 5, you need to play MOAR RPGs.

No. MotB is arguably a top 5 RPG.

Don't get me wrong, it's a hell of an expansion, but it is an expansion (pretty short and suffering from the many issues of NWN2 as well as some of its own), and not as good as PS:T in various ways.

MotB is arguably superior to PS:T.

PS:T drops off after the Weeping Stone Catacombs, whereas MotB only drops off after Thay.
PS:T uses the clunkiest engine with the stickiest pathfinding, cutscenes for spell-casting, and its UI includes an awful portable pop-up (IOW, don't think that only MotB has UI issues).

MotB has superior dialogue, C&C, companions, dungeon design, puzzles and ruleset (build opportunities).
 
Joined
Dec 17, 2013
Messages
5,110
MotB is arguably superior to PS:T.

:edgy:

PS:T drops off after the Weeping Stone Catacombs, whereas MotB only drops off after Thay.

If PS:T dropped off after the intro movie, it's good parts would still be almost as long as MotB. :lol:

PS:T uses the clunkiest engine with the stickiest pathfinding, cutscenes for spell-casting, and its UI includes an awful portable pop-up (IOW, don't think that only MotB has UI issues).

So you are arguing that the abomination that is the NWN2 engine is better than IE? :M

MotB has superior dialogue, C&C, companions, dungeon design, puzzles and ruleset (build opportunities).

No, maybe, no, no, no, and no. And build opportunities in post level 20 DnD? All I remember is Vampire Feast, collect loot, Vampire Feast, collect loot.
 

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