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Mass Effect Mass Effect Series Retrospective by Shamus Young

Atomkilla

Arcane
Joined
Jul 26, 2011
Messages
715
...No, everything that Shamus' gone over still convinces me that the writers were just that incompetent. It's still a neat fan theory, and proof that a gang of fanboys can write this shit better in their free time than Bioware's team of paid professional writers ever could.


Pretty much this.

I very much admire the indoctrination theory and I would really, really like it to be truth, but this retrospective basically proves that isn't the case. No writer responsible for writing Kai Leng would be able to come up with something as complex and meta as IT.
 

KlauZ

Educated
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Jul 23, 2015
Messages
93
Indoctrination theory is shit and doesn`t explain anything. It`s not better than original writing in any way.
 

KlauZ

Educated
Joined
Jul 23, 2015
Messages
93
1) It`s not how indoctrination described to work
2) Why would reapers even do this at this point
3) "It`s a dream" copout.
4) Most "proofs" are lightyears farfetched
5) Doesn`t actually explain anything
 

Lhynn

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Joined
Aug 28, 2013
Messages
9,825
1) It`s not how indoctrination described to work
Yes it is actually. Its exactly how slow indoctrination works, word by word, directly from the ME1 codex.

2) Why would reapers even do this at this point
They did it against the protheans, having high ranking officials indoctrinated facilitates finding and eliminating the remaining enemies in hiding.

3) "It`s a dream" copout.
This would only cover the ending, which has all the signs of being a dream, from unlimited bullets to reality altering events that are never adressed. This is the first time in the series in which it happens. And after it if you chose right you can clearly see shepard waking up.

4) Most "proofs" are lightyears farfetched
Sure, but the most important ones are p. obvious.

5) Doesn`t actually explain anything
It explains the dreams, it explains the entire ending. Makes the game more interesting and gives the plot across 3 games thematic consistency. It doesnt delete kai leng, or cerverus or any of that retardation, but then again, no one expects it to. Bioware is full of hack writers, but indoctrination was the obvious intent. After the debacle they ran away from it tho, too many people had picked control or synthesis as their good endings for you them to tell them "you picked wrong, game over", and so the reworked endings got released.
 
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pippin

Guest
Bioware has never been good a creating major themes or plots. Just look at how dumb the stories are in their games. Their writing is focused on characters and their relationships, to the point when just one dialogue line can change the course of the whole game.
I'm not a fan of typical biowarian shit, but I do like the idea of character driven stories.
 

KlauZ

Educated
Joined
Jul 23, 2015
Messages
93
Its exactly how slow indoctrination works
No it doesn`t. "“ghostly” presences" as hallucinations are not the same thing as "fully fledged virtual reality with fictional persons who can be interacted with".

having high ranking officials indoctrinated facilitates finding
At THIS point. When he is going to blow up everyone any second.

from unlimited bullets to reality altering events that are never adressed.
Unlimited bullets in a scripted cinematic? Wow, I`ve never seen that before, nothing farfetched.

"reality altering events" such as changing everyones DNA in the galaxy? Yeah, it wasnt adressed. You know, where it also wasn`t adressed? In IT. IT doesnt explain this shit in any way.

clearly see shepard waking up.
Yeah, and that is proving that shepard never was on crucible? So... what DID happen? Reapers are still winning and everyone`s gonna die?

It explains the dreams
Yeah, it explains everything. Also, actually Shepard was fully indoctrinated in the first game, near the beacon, and everything else in the series is a dream. That explains every possible plothole there is.

the entire ending
Shepard is dead and everyone is happy and somehow shepard is also indoctrinated and helping reapers. Or he is just dead after indoctrination, but everyone still lives happily ever after.

indoctrination was the obvious intent
Yes, it was at one point. Just like Reapers were fighting the dark matter caused by overuse of EZero. But its not about what was intended, its about what we have. And IT doesnt make what we have any better.
 

InD_ImaginE

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5,367
Pathfinder: Wrath
Yeah, and that is proving that shepard never was on crucible? So... what DID happen? Reapers are still winning and everyone`s gonna die?

Yes. in IT the whole conversation is metaphorical presentation of fighting against indoctrination. A better question would be: if IT is true what the fuck does the crubicle does then?
 

Atomkilla

Arcane
Joined
Jul 26, 2011
Messages
715
The more "extreme" supporters of the IT argue that Bioware planned to make additional, free DLC which was to be released a few weeks after game's release or so, which would present the actual ending of the game - that is, if you as Shepard picked the Destroy "ending" and woke up on planet's surface.

Again, I call bullshit on that one since it sounds really too far fetched to be true (as if IT isn't stretching it enough), but like IT, it really puts things in a new perspective and shows Bioware's incompetence.

Would be cool if it were true, though.
 

Lhynn

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Joined
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Messages
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No it doesn`t. "“ghostly” presences" as hallucinations are not the same thing as "fully fledged virtual reality with fictional persons who can be interacted with".
Meant the oily shadows that are around shepard on the forest. Not the kid that represents the alien presence in your mind. The kid that no one else can see, ever, while right in front of them. And that when he is around strange voices and noises can be heard.

At THIS point. When he is going to blow up everyone any second.
Everyone? what the fuck are you talking about, thats a dream. Shepard is still on london, got hit by a laser. Also yeah, a huge number of intelligent life form on the galaxy remains hidden. It would take decades to track everyone down. If you have someone with connections its a lot faster.

Unlimited bullets in a scripted cinematic? Wow, I`ve never seen that before, nothing farfetched.
Except that it isnt a cinematic.

"reality altering events" such as changing everyones DNA in the galaxy? Yeah, it wasnt adressed. You know, where it also wasn`t adressed? In IT. IT doesnt explain this shit in any way.
Yes it does. it files it in the "didnt happen" category.

Yeah, and that is proving that shepard never was on crucible?
So if you pick the other two options, related to the two dudes that were indoctrinated in the trilogy you never wake up.

So... what DID happen? Reapers are still winning and everyone`s gonna die?
Yes sir, exactly that.

Yeah, it explains everything. Also, actually Shepard was fully indoctrinated in the first game, near the beacon, and everything else in the series is a dream. That explains every possible plothole there is.
Nope, the beacon wasnt a reaper artifact, it was prothean in origin and a warning about reapers. Reaper got indoctrinated in Arrival DLC, where he got captured and exposed to a reaper artifact for several days.


Shepard is dead and everyone is happy and somehow shepard is also indoctrinated and helping reapers. Or he is just dead after indoctrination, but everyone still lives happily ever after.
All that happens there is just a figment of shepards imagination, he wants that to happen. In the whole series you never see anything outside of shepards point of view. Why start with that for 5 minutes as it ends?

Yes, it was at one point. Just like Reapers were fighting the dark matter caused by overuse of EZero. But its not about what was intended, its about what we have. And IT doesnt make what we have any better.
Naw, indoctrination was the answer to the question "what the fuck are we going to do with the third game". What IT does is give context to the kid at the start, the dreams, and the final part of the game. That is it.
You still have rampant retardation in a lot of places on the main quest, but nothing bending reality in your face stupid. Absolutely nothing is as nonsensical as the last 20 minutes, and IT fits in perfectly. Including magical symbolical wounds that appear on your own body after anderson gets shot in that place and dies. It is too deliberate on its execution not to have a reason.
 

pippin

Guest
The more "extreme" supporters of the IT argue that Bioware planned to make additional, free DLC which was to be released a few weeks after game's release or so, which would present the actual ending of the game - that is, if you as Shepard picked the Destroy "ending" and woke up on planet's surface.

Again, I call bullshit on that one since it sounds really too far fetched to be true (as if IT isn't stretching it enough), but like IT, it really puts things in a new perspective and shows Bioware's incompetence.

Would be cool if it were true, though.

But there was a free DLC released a few weeks after the game release with the "true" ending. Shepard does not wake up though, you see him/her breathing in the middle of a mountain of rubble.
 

KlauZ

Educated
Joined
Jul 23, 2015
Messages
93
The kid that no one else can see
Except they do...

strange voices and noises can be heard.
"strange voices" in dreams are of his dead teammates

"Strange noises" are frigging reaper invasion happening around.

Shepard is still on london
Ok. Why do we see the world after his indoctrination? What does that mean and how does that work? And what is even the point if the story is still unfinished?

"didnt happen" category.
And if it was true, it would be an example of a much worse writing than the actual game has.

just a figment of shepards imagination, he wants that to happen.
Just a figment of a wild fan`s imagination, it doesn`t serve any point, its not how indoctrination works and just plainly even more stupid than original endings.

kid at the start
Is seen by other people and just there to raise the stakes.

the dreams
Or maybe, just maybe, Shepard is under a huge emotional stress from killing the whole race, having his homeplanet dying, his friends dying, world around crumbling, so he sees a dreams about dying and burning world full of people he couldnt save, hearing their voices?

final part of the game
Is explained by "its a dream" copout on every plothole, and has even less point and closure to it than original. Great work.

magical symbolical wounds that appear on your own body
Another proof that IT fans are delusional. Shep`s wounded right after the beam and holding her stomach long before the meeting.
 
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Tom Selleck

Arcane
Joined
May 6, 2013
Messages
1,206
ITT: shit is either greasy, chunky diarrhea or a spiky, bloody log. Which is better and why?
 

Atomkilla

Arcane
Joined
Jul 26, 2011
Messages
715
The more "extreme" supporters of the IT argue that Bioware planned to make additional, free DLC which was to be released a few weeks after game's release or so, which would present the actual ending of the game - that is, if you as Shepard picked the Destroy "ending" and woke up on planet's surface.

Again, I call bullshit on that one since it sounds really too far fetched to be true (as if IT isn't stretching it enough), but like IT, it really puts things in a new perspective and shows Bioware's incompetence.

Would be cool if it were true, though.

But there was a free DLC released a few weeks after the game release with the "true" ending. Shepard does not wake up though, you see him/her breathing in the middle of a mountain of rubble.


I'm not sure if I follow... I know about the Extended Cut as the free DLC which changed some stuff, I don't know about any other DLC... ?

"The Truth" DLC or whatever it was to be called, IIRC, supposed to be a real ending, a final battle with Harbinger or something once Shepard's struggle with indoctrination was over. Again, I call bullshit on that one and think it was completely fan-made.
 

pippin

Guest
The more "extreme" supporters of the IT argue that Bioware planned to make additional, free DLC which was to be released a few weeks after game's release or so, which would present the actual ending of the game - that is, if you as Shepard picked the Destroy "ending" and woke up on planet's surface.

Again, I call bullshit on that one since it sounds really too far fetched to be true (as if IT isn't stretching it enough), but like IT, it really puts things in a new perspective and shows Bioware's incompetence.

Would be cool if it were true, though.

But there was a free DLC released a few weeks after the game release with the "true" ending. Shepard does not wake up though, you see him/her breathing in the middle of a mountain of rubble.


I'm not sure if I follow... I know about the Extended Cut as the free DLC which changed some stuff, I don't know about any other DLC... ?

"The Truth" DLC or whatever it was to be called, IIRC, supposed to be a real ending, a final battle with Harbinger or something once Shepard's struggle with indoctrination was over. Again, I call bullshit on that one and think it was completely fan-made.

Oh yeah, I thin I heard about that, but iirc it was just a fanmade thing.
 

Xor

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Codex 2014 PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire Divinity: Original Sin Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Divinity: Original Sin 2
It's pointless to argue with a dedicated ITer. They have conspiracy nut levels of denial about anything that doesn't support their theory.
 

Lhynn

Arcane
Joined
Aug 28, 2013
Messages
9,825
Except they do...
Nope, anderson denies ever having seen him, and the kid was right in front of him at one point, the soldier never even looks in his general direction.

"strange voices" in dreams are of his dead teammates
Nope, im talking in general, when you first meet the kid you hear loud noises like the ones the reaper makes.

"Strange noises" are frigging reaper invasion happening around.
Its different, sounds like its right beside you, close. The reaper invasion is happening, but no reaper is close enough for you to listen to it so clearly from inside a vent in a building.

Ok. Why do we see the world after his indoctrination? What does that mean and how does that work? And what is even the point if the story is still unfinished?
We see what shepard wants or expects to see. It means nothing, only that you either got indoctrinated or you fought back. and im guessing the point was adding the real ending as shepard right there. either he gets indoctrinated or he doesnt, regardless the trilogy was done, but the war was just starting.

And if it was true, it would be an example of a much worse writing than the actual game has.
Dreams filled with symbolism arent bad writing bro, they usually arent stellar either, but they have been biowares style since baldurs gate.

Just a figment of a wild fan`s imagination, it doesn`t serve any point, its not how indoctrination works and just plainly even more stupid than original endings.
Actually its p. much how long term indoctrination works. Its been described and been a big theme in the game since the start of the series.

Is seen by other people and just there to raise the stakes.
No one actually sees him.

Or maybe, just maybe, Shepard is under a huge emotional stress from killing the whole race
Maybe, but you are suposed to be playing him and his demeanor or emotional state never shows it, so its p. stupid to even bring it up. If you dont know how your character is feeling tru his actions then its not your character.

having his homeplanet dying, his friends dying, world around crumbling, so he sees a dreams about dying and burning world full of people he couldnt save, hearing their voices?
As i said, this cannot be the case because the player is never informed of this being the case. If it was an NPC we were talking about then ok, i may buy it, but its the player character we are talking about, and he has as much info as we do.

Is explained by "its a dream" copout on every plothole, and has even less point and closure to it than original. Great work.
"Its a dream" isnt inherently bad writing, especially if thanks to it theres character development and it actually has an impact on what happens in the future. The problem with "Its a dream" usually comes from the fact that its meaningless, if theres meaning behind it, then theres no problem.

Another proof that IT fans are delusional. Shep`s wounded right after the beam and holding her stomach long before the meeting.
Wounded by a bullet/beam on the exact same place anderson was? and you accuse me of going for a far fetched irrational explanation?
 

Lhynn

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Messages
9,825
It's pointless to argue with a dedicated ITer. They have conspiracy nut levels of denial about anything that doesn't support their theory.
The reason is hard to argue against the whole thing is that its perfectly set up for it. Denying this means implying levels of incompetence from the part of bioware that werve never seen before. And it would be alright if that was the case, id be willing to believe any 5yo kid could do a better job than these trained profesionals if thats what it took. but then you have a huge list of "coincidences" that perfectly fit into it.
If anything it takes extreme shortsightedness coupled with an insane amount of denial to believe that wasnt the authorial intent. While for the indoctrination to be real all you need to believe is that they meant to do it.
 

Jick Magger

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PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Serpent in the Staglands Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 Bubbles In Memoria
As I said before, there is plenty of evidence that's been discussed before and gone over by Shamus (dedicating the entire second game to what's essentially a side-story, constant contradictions in exactly what Cerberus is as an organization, what their goals are, and where they stand morally, completely disregarding everything the series has established by having the Reapers successfully invade, only being beatable because their invasion is completely unlike what it was as described by a first-hand source and instead incredibly incompetent, nonsensical, creator's pet villains, so on and so forth), that yes, the writers were just that bad at their jobs. If anything, Indoctrination Theory is reliant on the assumption that the writers were stunningly incompetent in almost every way in regards to the Reapers and disregarded almost all pre-established lore in regards to their characterization and their methods of invasion, save for one very specific part. In that part, they dedicated almost Hideo Kojima-tier meticulous research, writing, and planning in order to please fans of the original game (whom they've treated with nothing but scorn and derision in almost every single other aspect of their writing, I must add) with their dedication to lore .

The 'evidence' makes Indoctrination Theory obvious in the same way that 'evidence' in Final Fantasy VIII makes it obvious that Squall actually died at the end of Act I, or that Rinoa is actually Ultimecia, or the 'evidence' in the Silent Hill series makes it obvious that the first four games were actually a giant commentary against how evil circumcision is. It's just the fanbase seeing what they want to see and writing around it in order to accommodate it.
 
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Xbalanque

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It's pointless to argue with a dedicated ITer. They have conspiracy nut levels of denial about anything that doesn't support their theory.
The reason is hard to argue against the whole thing is that its perfectly set up for it. Denying this means implying levels of incompetence from the part of bioware that werve never seen before. And it would be alright if that was the case, id be willing to believe any 5yo kid could do a better job than these trained profesionals if thats what it took. but then you have a huge list of "coincidences" that perfectly fit into it.
If anything it takes extreme shortsightedness coupled with an insane amount of denial to believe that wasnt the authorial intent. While for the indoctrination to be real all you need to believe is that they meant to do it.

IT doesn't make any sense. The whole game would be pointless if it was true.

Nobody however explains that endings differ slightly depending on the level of assets you had throughout the game. How would the Crucible Child count and change the endings in Shepard's head?
 

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