MGS2: SoL- Biggest gaming conjob/Visionary/arguably first postmodern vidya/Indocrination theory

[dnf]

Just wanted to share this long list of articles trying to make some sense of the clusterfuck that metal gear solid 2: substance is:

http://metagearsolid.org/2012/04/mgs2-review-chapter-1/

There is some nice things in there, the reading is worth it, tough it is as long as an MG cut scene. Some highlights.

Chapter 1 of article:
So called "Ribicky maneuver"(praise on release, shit on it when old) happened: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GK84MRbeWm8
"Metal Gear Solid 2 went from being called a masterpiece to being called, well, masturbatory."

MGS2 con job(the Big Shell chapter) was created to be some kind of face lifted version of 1998 Metal Gear(also explained by the plot) yet, a much worse version of it, here is the examples provided:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LxjHx4Nnkz4
"Solid Snake is a ladies man. Whether he's dealing with mentally conditioned man-haters or openly hostile psychopaths out for his blood, he always ends up with them on his side."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ygYXTDOwlbw
"Raiden can't seem to get into those same flattering situations."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CRDK6SdqgFU
"Who needs friends when you have enemies like this? Snake gets flattered by every foe he comes across, creating a sense that he's a true badass among badasses."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w9Z7GARiPO8
"Raiden doesn't get treated like much of a hero."

He also rants about Big Shell not being a cool setting like Shadow Moses.

Chapter 2 of article goes in detail about the story, plot twists and plot holes.

Chapter 3 of article explain a little bit about Kojima, how he is this highly intelligent jap who gets butthurt easily because people don't give much of a fuck about his anti-war messages. When he was asked about Roger Erbert "games are not art" critique, he partially agrees with him, saying that games must be postmodern in order to be art. He gives the example of a boss who you can't be defeated, subverting expectations and such. Turns out he was talking about MGS2

Chapter 4 delves into the "VR theory" which seems to be another "squall is dead" theory. The last resort to explain the plot holes as intentional.

Chapter 5 tries to show some evidence that VR theory is true and Chapter 7 is a review of the game. forgot to read Chapter 6

If this sounds too tl:dr, here is some interesting tl:dw video of Superbunnyhoopz about the postmodern nature of MGS2:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T-2YuPGYabw

MGS2 attempts at Nostradamus: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b_W4EV-ikJY and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NS9sWYop2UE

Also, japs are fucking peverts: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NAUDFch-2UI

i dedicate this thread to @major blackheart

 

[Tehdagah]

MGS2's controls sucked.

 

[Jick Magger]

Controls were fine and suited the 'dodge the cone' gameplay, it's just that the gameplay itself was pretty boring and repetitive, mostly consisting of running through the same grey corridors and orange catwalks on inane fetch quests and escort missions. Whenever you hear people praising the game (beyond parroting SuperBunnyHop and Matthewmatosis' analysis of the game), it's mostly due to the plot twists that're established in the final third of the story.

That's why I like MGS3 more; it's actually a fun game to play on top of having a pretty good story.

 

[J_C]

The MGS series is one of the best thing in vidia gaming ever. Period. Including MGS2.

 

[dunno lah]

Hnnnggh...must play MGS3...

 

[Peter]

That's why I like MGS3 more; it's actually a fun game to play on top of having a pretty good story.

On the one hand you're completely right, but on the other, idk, MGS2 just engrossed me so much more. Finished it in a weekend, whereas MGS3 I've not played for months and should really force myself to go back to and finish it (I think I'd gotten a few areas past the tree-hopping invisible dude when I last played).

The main strength of MGS2 is, as you said of course, the "postmodernism!!1" stuff. It pulls that off better and more entertainingly than all the Bioshocks and Spec Ops in the world. It is just Pacman gameplay-wise, but it's still very, very good for what it is, imo. The game is a ton of fun to play despite the very simple mechanics, in large part thanks to just how polished it is. The animation is incredible and the controls, while a tad convoluted, worked beautifully once you got the hang of them. And I love how filled with detail it is. There was rarely a moment when I wasn't laughing out loud at another silly easter egg or neat little feature or ridiculous codec conversation, which is something that never happens to me. MGS3 retains some of this, but to a much lesser and, I'd argue, less entertaining degree.

Plus, the look of MGS2 is absolutely fantastic. MGS3 looks great for a PS2 game as well, but MGS2 really uses the system's limitations to its favou, what with the low-poly, geometric, crisp look of the environments. Reminded me of Mirror's Edge or something.

This turned into a very long and rambly post, sorry. Point is, while I'm glad MGS2 does nowadays get praise for its main strength - the subversive storytelling - I still feel like overall the game is not given enough credit. It's obviously a labour of love, extremely charming and polished, and an absolute blast to play through. MGS3 is probably the better game, but some of 'the magic' is lost.

 

[WhiteGuts]

Well MGS2 directly mocks the player for playing the game, for doing what he's told all the time, just like Raiden during the Big Shell. It's an interesting analogy, for sure. And it probably deserves the praise it gets.
But the storytelling could be a lot better. Kojima basically drops info dumps on you constantly, takes away control of the game from you for long period of times...etc. It's kinda what makes the charm of the MGS series, true, but it's not really good.

There is literally no reason to play the MGS games for the plot. It's a convulted, over-swollen mess of stereotypes and action movies clichés.

 

[Jick Magger]

Don't get me wrong, I still think MGS2 was a good game, and that the series as a whole would be diminished without it. No other developer's been able to pull off a meta-commentary on video gaming, the nature of sequels, the relationship between player and player character, and the subjectivity of 'reality' anywhere near as well as Kojima did with that game. It helps alot that much of what he was discussing: meme theory, global surveillance, and the oversaturation of 'junk' information threatening to destroy western culture, really didn't become truly relevant to modern culture until fairly recently.

But the problem for me is that, as much as I appreciate the messages it conveys and the amount of love Kojima and his team put into it, it's still hard for me to enjoy it as a game. MGS3 never quite reaches the zenith that MGS2 did, but it makes up for it with a 'safe' storyline (that still manages to subvert some expectations, like the mysticism behind Big Boss), that is competently told, sets a brilliant tone, and for the most part is just a wacky spy story. along with gameplay which freely encourages experimentation and variety in how you handle situations. It's essentially, if you forgive me borrowing SuperBunnyHop's observation; a perfect example of an 'actionized' sequel which ditches alot of the cerebral-ness and risk-taking that it's predecessor had, but is nevertheless still a fun experience which has a lot of love put in to it.

 

[J_C]

There is literally no reason to play the MGS games for the plot..

You are wrong! While the story could use editing, the different themes they touch are very interesting, and there are lots of cool moments in it.

 

[WhiteGuts]

I think MGS3 is a better game than MGS2, hands down. If only for that survival aspect (camouflage, hunting, healing). MGS2 hits its peak during those last 30-45 minutes. Other than that it's a game that's very similar to its predecessor (yeah I know it's the point of the whole thing, but it's nevertheless true).

But like I said, and although I like the message Kojima tried to convey in MGS2, it could've been done in a much better way, other than "Hey asshole I'm the developper here's my opinion on things". Just imagine the same thing in PS:T for example.

You are wrong! While the story could use editing, the differnen themes they touch are very interesting, and there are lots of cool moments in it.

Lots of cool moments, a bunch of interesting characters. But it's still bad, as far as storytelling goes.

 

[dnf]

The tanker chapter is a work of art. The attention to detail is really impressing, even by today graphic standards. Besides the linear nature of the game, it still offers a lot of Deus ex style reactivity to your actions( and the action of others) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NAUDFch-2UI . Games like Biocock infinite don't hold a candle compared to MGS2: yes, you can kill every civilian in the game, but there is no in game reaction to your actions. The stealth is good, not as good as pure stealth games, but MGS is a hybrid action game. I liked the game tasks and boss fights off course.

 

[WalmartJesus]

I was one of those people who was intitially butthurt for not being able to Play as Snake the entire game. So, I turned my nose up at MGS2 for the longest time ..but, i've learned to appreciate the game and enjoy the "postmodernism" and "social commentary". I even learned to appreciate Raiden's character arc of being "the Naive and Dorky Rookie just blindly following orders"

Still, MGS3 is the best in the series. ...like others have already stated

 

[Farage]

the only thing i can remember about MSG is meryl's low polygon ass

Spoiler

http://37.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m8vyj8rnB81qzqt8do2_500.gif

 

[dunno lah]

Fapworthy. Looks better than I remembered it.

 

[Trotsky]

Sons of Liberty was my introduction to the series and I was hooked by the depth, characters, graphics, atmosphere, voice acting, and story. Despite the sudden character switch I've come to appreciate Raiden as well since he represented a new player like myself. Then the apex of the series MGS3 was announced and I was hyped beyond belief. Lucky for me the Twin Snakes remake also hit shelves soon afterward allowing me to enjoy the original classic with updated gameplay and graphics. It's a shame to see what Metal Gear Solid has degenerated into nowadays compared to the first three games but I'll never forget the tanker, big shell, patriots, fission mailed, etc.

 

[Untermensch]

Eh..... After playing watching MGS1, I've decided to steer clear of the series.

What a painfull experience that was.

 

[Indranys]

It's a shame to see what Metal Gear Solid has degenerated into nowadays compared to the first three games but I'll never forget the tanker, big shell, patriots, fission mailed, etc.

What? The new MGS is shit now??
Explain bro, explain.
Snake Eater is my last MGS and I never follow the series again.

And yes the deep and convoluted stories and wacky theories could make people love or hate the game, but to be honest I never really put too much attention to them.
I want to be a Rambo and kick the enemy's elite team of badasses, and the nice story is just a bonus.
I'm just a sucker for one man army vs the whole enemies trope.

I'd love to play a decent Rambo/one man army stealth action game with MGS-esque gameplay even without all the complex stories and dramas.
I wonder why no one pitch that kind of game on the kickstarter...
PS2 graphix, low poly background textures, limited but dense game world, cool bosses, rudimentary AI patrols with MGS core mechanics, simple but tight story without all the MGS dramas, homo and porn shit.
Damn, I'll definitely back that one.

 

[dunno lah]

Metal Gear 1 would be the best candidate for that. Low emphasis on plot, extreme emphasis on gameplay. They can even go full blown, "open-world" stealth sim with Outer Heaven.

 

[34scell]

MG2>MGS. Much better storytelling and adventure mechanics. MGS3 was the second decline when the developers no longer cared about the player feeling like they're in an actual location, the level design literally regressing to the nintendo version of MG1. Fortunately, the new MGS is shifting to a more open level design, but now they've added a CoD health system.

 

[Trotsky]

It's a shame to see what Metal Gear Solid has degenerated into nowadays compared to the first three games but I'll never forget the tanker, big shell, patriots, fission mailed, etc.

What? The new MGS is shit now??
Explain bro, explain.
Snake Eater is my last MGS and I never follow the series again.

And yes the deep and convoluted stories and wacky theories could make people love or hate the game, but to be honest I never really put too much attention to them.
I want to be a Rambo and kick the enemy's elite team of badasses, and the nice story is just a bonus.
I'm just a sucker for one man army vs the whole enemies trope.

I'd love to play a decent Rambo/one man army stealth action game with MGS-esque gameplay even without all the complex stories and dramas.
I wonder why no one pitch that kind of game on the kickstarter...
PS2 graphix, low poly background textures, limited but dense game world, cool bosses, rudimentary AI patrols with MGS core mechanics, simple but tight story without all the MGS dramas, homo and porn shit.
Damn, I'll definitely back that one.

Everything cool about Metal Gear Solid was trashed by the newer games from the tight narrative, stealth mechanics, story themes, supernatural elements, etc. Instead we got asspulls, retcons, dumb fan service, little to no stealth, forgettable bosses, extremely boring and melodramatic cut scenes even by Metal Gear standards. If you stopped playing at MGS3 then you did yourself a favor because that's when the series should have ended on a high note.

What made Metal Gear Solid unique was it's combination of tactical espionage action, political thriller atmosphere, occasional humorous moments, complex character motivations, and Rambo/Plissken style hero with a strong anti-government bent. In other words MGS was a summer blockbuster but with Indy film and academy award material thrown in. The newer games just don't compare in quality at all more like they were made simply to collect a paycheck. Even David Hayter's voice acting has declined over the years and my guess is he doesn't believe in the material anymore.

That's not to say the newer games don't have anything positive about them but not enough to offset the overall decline. The radically darker shift taken by MGS5 was likely driven by Kojima realizing the series was rapidly going downhill. MGS5 looks promising and has the potential to get the series back on track again. I'm cautiously optimistic.

 

[J_C]

No.

 

[Trotsky]

No.

Did you mean nanomachines?

 

[J_C]

Yes.

 

[oddech_wymarlych_swiatow]

Offtop: I'm having a blast with Peace Walker but skipped Portable Ops, is the latter worth playing?

 

[J_C]

Offtop: I'm having a blast with Peace Walker but skipped Portable Ops, is the latter worth playing?

It has a few nice story moments, but you can skip it. Gameplay is similar to PW, but not as good.