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G2A Steam Key Reseller Drama Thread

Perkel

Arcane
Joined
Mar 28, 2014
Messages
15,803
Fuck indies crying about their shitware, almost nobody's buying it to begin with. If it really hurt sales AAA companies would just send hitmen.

One episode at the time.
 

Mustawd

Guest
So, you are saying that you are ok with a situation in which a creator of a game is scammed out of thousands of dollars simply because he is a dude you dont like, or he makes games you think are shit? I mean, come on, there is being edgy and cool and then there is being a retard.

Why are these devs mad at G2A? They need to complain to valve. Put another way, what if a CC thief bought the game directly from Steam? Isn't this the same situation? Key doesn't get paid for and/or gets canceled. This is simply a Steam issue.


In either case, you don't get paid. Want to get paid? How about you lobby valve instead. But they won't because they're powerless indies. So they lash out at G2A, who probably has considerably less power and clout than Valve. It's just a story of a weak group trying to leverage what they can. If you ask me it's pretty damn sleazy that these guys are dragging G2A's name through the mud just because they aren't making enough money on their games.
 

Spectacle

Arcane
Patron
Joined
May 25, 2006
Messages
8,363
So, you are saying that you are ok with a situation in which a creator of a game is scammed out of thousands of dollars simply because he is a dude you dont like, or he makes games you think are shit? I mean, come on, there is being edgy and cool and then there is being a retard.

Why are these devs mad at G2A? They need to complain to valve. Put another way, what if a CC thief bought the game directly from Steam? Isn't this the same situation? Key doesn't get paid for and/or gets canceled. This is simply a Steam issue.
Steam doesn't give you keys, so you can't easily resell it. You can buy a gift copy and sell it, but that's much more cumbersome and much easier for Steam to track down once the fraud chargeback comes.
 

Mustawd

Guest
Ok, I am cc thief. I buy it off a bundle. There. Same situation.
 

Zdzisiu

Arcane
Joined
Dec 3, 2009
Messages
3,489
So, you are saying that you are ok with a situation in which a creator of a game is scammed out of thousands of dollars simply because he is a dude you dont like, or he makes games you think are shit? I mean, come on, there is being edgy and cool and then there is being a retard.

Why are these devs mad at G2A? They need to complain to valve. Put another way, what if a CC thief bought the game directly from Steam? Isn't this the same situation? Key doesn't get paid for and/or gets canceled. This is simply a Steam issue.


In either case, you don't get paid. Want to get paid? How about you lobby valve instead. But they won't because they're powerless indies. So they lash out at G2A, who probably has considerably less power and clout than Valve. It's just a story of a weak group trying to leverage what they can. If you ask me it's pretty damn sleazy that these guys are dragging G2A's name through the mud just because they aren't making enough money on their games.
They whine about G2A because G2A is the outlet that let those stolen keys get transformed into real money and without G2A this process would be significantly more difficult and therefore less profitable and therefore less common. Yes, if there wasnt G2A there would be another site like it. The name of the site does not matter, its the practices. And the way it operates is that it gives no fucks about the origin of the key that is being sold. It is a bit like a pawn shop but without the legal obligations that pawn shops are under.

G2A even went as far as introducing the protection system for your purchases, that you can get for additional money because they are well aware that some of the stock they sell is illegal and some of it is going to get revoked so they offer the insurance.

Why they dont complain to steam? And what is the fault of steam? It sells legit keys for the amount of money the developed agreed too. The problem starts when a thief uses a stolen credit card to purchase game keys, then the bank issues charge back and the money must go back but the keys are not returned.

And as Spectacle said, Steam is not the source of most of the keys. Because as he said, they dont sell keys but gifts. And I believe it is done for this very reason as I remember there being similar problems with the past with steam and credit card frauds and chargebacks.
 

Zdzisiu

Arcane
Joined
Dec 3, 2009
Messages
3,489
Ok, I am cc thief. I buy it off a bundle. There. Same situation.
So your answer is to complain to the bundle host rather than to G2A that is knowingly allowing illegal merchandise to be sold on their site and that gets a cut (around 30%) of it?
 

Spectacle

Arcane
Patron
Joined
May 25, 2006
Messages
8,363
Ok, I am cc thief. I buy it off a bundle. There. Same situation.
Now you're stealing from the bundle store rather than directly from the developer. In both cases G2A or a similar shady store is needed for you to make actual money from your crime.
 

Mustawd

Guest
Yes, of course. This how the CC thieves are getting the keys, no? I mean they are entering into commerce with the bundler, are they not? So they can negotiate with them. And if not, then the last resort is to not bundle. It's not a hard concept really. It's your choice: Bundle as is and accept risks or lobby the bundler to help provide mechanisms for protection.
 

Mustawd

Guest
Ok, I am cc thief. I buy it off a bundle. There. Same situation.
Now you're stealing from the bundle store rather than directly from the developer. In both cases G2A or a similar shady store is needed for you to make actual money from your crime.

I steal a bunch of clothes and sell it on ebay. So ebay is responsible for my theft? Give me a break guys.
 

Spectacle

Arcane
Patron
Joined
May 25, 2006
Messages
8,363
I steal a bunch of clothes and sell it on ebay. So ebay is responsible for my theft? Give me a break guys.
If ebay knowingly got a huge part of their business from stolen goods and did nothing to stop that, then damn straight they are responsible.
 

Zdzisiu

Arcane
Joined
Dec 3, 2009
Messages
3,489
Ok, I am cc thief. I buy it off a bundle. There. Same situation.
Now you're stealing from the bundle store rather than directly from the developer. In both cases G2A or a similar shady store is needed for you to make actual money from your crime.

I steal a bunch of clothes and sell it on ebay. So ebay is responsible for my theft? Give me a break guys.
What do you think would happen if you tried to sell the stolen clothes to a pawn shop and then after two days police would find out about it? The pawn shop would be required to give the stolen goods to the police and also give the police the details of the guy who brought the stolen clothes to the pawn shop. G2A does none of that.

Also, the problem with stolen keys is that once activated, in many cases, nothing can be done to revoke/reclaim the keys. Sure, big publishers like Steam or Origin can revoke keys if they found out they were bought on a fraud but smaller publisher, or the developers selling the game keys themselves often have no way of doing it. Do you then assume that it makes it ok to steal from them? Then it would also be ok to steal from somebody who just left his door unlocked, right?

I understand that some people love site like G2A because it allows them to buy the games cheaper than anywhere else, sometimes for like half the price and still feel right about it because they paid money, they didnt steal anything, right? Its the feeling of not doing anything bad, since you paid for the key.

But people wont take the minute and two to wonder why those guys are able to sell the key for 20$ when ever other shop is selling it for 40$+. Sure, some could say it isnt the buyers responsibility to think why something is cheap.

But try that excuse when you are stopped in a car you just bought from a dude, for like half the usuall price, and it just so happens that it was stolen a week ago. You would have a lot of explaining to do.
 
Last edited:

Angthoron

Arcane
Joined
Jul 13, 2007
Messages
13,056
I had this crazy idea, but I think it's just too crazy and can't possibly work.

It went something like

1) How about indie devs stop overpricing their shit
2) How about game dev stops overpricing their shit
3) How about indie devs stop dumping their shit to bundles
3.1) This is like that shit Titan Attacks! devs cried their ass off over and went into WE ARE CLOSING DOWN mode
4) Seriously stop overpricing your shit, it's not like this is indie scene from 2006 or something and also you're not Spiderfoot

But yeah no, I dunno guys, sounds too unrealistic, I mean there's no way another pixel art early access game can cost less than 20 dollars at launch and 1 dollar in a bundle 3 weeks later, let's shut down the internet instead.
 

Mustawd

Guest
Does someone know how the G2A shield thing works? Do they guarantee your key will continue to work? Will they replace it? Will they refund your money back?

I can't see how the first would work, but the second option means the devs get money somehow and some way. The third option no one wins except the thief and G2A's reputation slowly goes down the tubes.
 

pippin

Guest
Does someone know how the G2A shield thing works? Do they guarantee your key will continue to work? Will they replace it? Will they refund your money back?

Only if you buy keys from them, which are clearly marked as such when you browse the site.
If you buy from a third party through G2A you're on your own.
It's not that different from ebay actually.
 

Zdzisiu

Arcane
Joined
Dec 3, 2009
Messages
3,489
I had this crazy idea, but I think it's just too crazy and can't possibly work.

It went something like

1) How about indie devs stop overpricing their shit
2) How about game dev stops overpricing their shit
3) How about indie devs stop dumping their shit to bundles
3.1) This is like that shit Titan Attacks! devs cried their ass off over and went into WE ARE CLOSING DOWN mode
4) Seriously stop overpricing your shit, it's not like this is indie scene from 2006 or something and also you're not Spiderfoot

But yeah no, I dunno guys, sounds too unrealistic, I mean there's no way another pixel art early access game can cost less than 20 dollars at launch and 1 dollar in a bundle 3 weeks later, let's shut down the internet instead.
You do realize that somebody who is buying the game with stolen credit card to resell it would still do it if the game cost 5$, right? For them it is pure profit.

Sure, we can discuss whether or not a game is worth 20-30-60$ dollars. But then when you decide that it is not worth it, the answer is not to buy it.

Also, tell that to Vault Dweller who has the balls to sell his indie game for 28 Euro on steam.
 

Mustawd

Guest
Yes, but his game is good. :M


So no one knows how this G2A shield thing works? I mean it makes a difference in terms of how much blame a dev can shift to G2A in the first place.
 

Angthoron

Arcane
Joined
Jul 13, 2007
Messages
13,056
I had this crazy idea, but I think it's just too crazy and can't possibly work.

It went something like

1) How about indie devs stop overpricing their shit
2) How about game dev stops overpricing their shit
3) How about indie devs stop dumping their shit to bundles
3.1) This is like that shit Titan Attacks! devs cried their ass off over and went into WE ARE CLOSING DOWN mode
4) Seriously stop overpricing your shit, it's not like this is indie scene from 2006 or something and also you're not Spiderfoot

But yeah no, I dunno guys, sounds too unrealistic, I mean there's no way another pixel art early access game can cost less than 20 dollars at launch and 1 dollar in a bundle 3 weeks later, let's shut down the internet instead.
You do realize that somebody who is buying the game with stolen credit card to resell it would still do it if the game cost 5$, right? For them it is pure profit.

Sure, we can discuss whether or not a game is worth 20-30-60$ dollars. But then when you decide that it is not worth it, the answer is not to buy it.

Also, tell that to Vault Dweller who has the balls to sell his indie game for 28 Euro on steam.

Did you read my post? The part about overpricing on generic indie shit? About consequently dumping it to indie bundles where you can legit-buy them for ONE FUCKING DOLLAR? Oh shit, they lost so much cash when someone resold their shit at a 500% profit! Except they already lost that money by dumping it into a bundle anyway, and anyone following the bundle market would've capitalized - not just the CC thieves. Furthermore, they lost that sale to begin with, by selling a generic product among a ton of other generic products and probably overpricing it by 100%

Furthermore, shock of shocks, when I see an actually worthy indie game, I buy it at full price, whatever the price may be. It may come at a shock to you, but my contributions to KS runs are usually pretty high, and it's not uncommon for me to buy extra copies of said games - especially if the devs aren't idiots that dump keys into bundles, as I said. Buying at a full price only to see the game for 1 dollar in a bundle is a fucking slap in my face, and if you do it once, you won't see my money at a full rate again. VD didn't do that, and I recall he posted a great post about why he's not going to go that route. Additionally, VD's game isn't generic pixel art schlock.

So yeah. Apples, oranges, shitcakes.

Yes, but his game is good. :M


So no one knows how this G2A shield thing works? I mean it makes a difference in terms of how much blame a dev can shift to G2A in the first place.
I don't know but I'd imagine it goes like so: you buy G2A shield when you're suspicious about the source, if the source ends up with key recalled, you go to G2A and it issues you a key either out of their own stock, or out of some other (reliable) vendor's stock, then initiate chargeback on the busted sale (as they are the sale mediator) and rank down the sale in their system, setting the vendor to appear less reliable on the listings.

At least that would be the sensible way to do this.
 

Zdzisiu

Arcane
Joined
Dec 3, 2009
Messages
3,489
I had this crazy idea, but I think it's just too crazy and can't possibly work.

It went something like

1) How about indie devs stop overpricing their shit
2) How about game dev stops overpricing their shit
3) How about indie devs stop dumping their shit to bundles
3.1) This is like that shit Titan Attacks! devs cried their ass off over and went into WE ARE CLOSING DOWN mode
4) Seriously stop overpricing your shit, it's not like this is indie scene from 2006 or something and also you're not Spiderfoot

But yeah no, I dunno guys, sounds too unrealistic, I mean there's no way another pixel art early access game can cost less than 20 dollars at launch and 1 dollar in a bundle 3 weeks later, let's shut down the internet instead.
You do realize that somebody who is buying the game with stolen credit card to resell it would still do it if the game cost 5$, right? For them it is pure profit.

Sure, we can discuss whether or not a game is worth 20-30-60$ dollars. But then when you decide that it is not worth it, the answer is not to buy it.

Also, tell that to Vault Dweller who has the balls to sell his indie game for 28 Euro on steam.

Did you read my post? The part about overpricing on generic indie shit? About consequently dumping it to indie bundles where you can legit-buy them for ONE FUCKING DOLLAR? Oh shit, they lost so much cash when someone resold their shit at a 500% profit! Except they already lost that money by dumping it into a bundle anyway, and anyone following the bundle market would've capitalized - not just the CC thieves. Furthermore, they lost that sale to begin with, by selling a generic product among a ton of other generic products.

Furthermore, shock of shocks, when I see an actually worthy indie game, I buy it at full price, whatever the price may be. It may come at a shock to you, but my contributions to KS runs are usually pretty high, and it's not uncommon for me to buy extra copies of said games - especially if the devs aren't idiots that dump keys into bundles, as I said. Buying at a full price only to see the game for 1 dollar in a bundle is a fucking slap in my face, and if you do it once, you won't see my money at a full rate again. VD didn't do that, and I recall he posted a great post about why he's not going to go that route. Additionally, VD's game isn't generic pixel art schlock.

So yeah. Apples, oranges, shitcakes.

Yes, but his game is good. :M


So no one knows how this G2A shield thing works? I mean it makes a difference in terms of how much blame a dev can shift to G2A in the first place.
I don't know but I'd imagine it goes like so: you buy G2A shield when you're suspicious about the source, if the source ends up with key recalled, you go to G2A and it issues you a key either out of their own stock, or out of some other (reliable) vendor's stock, then initiate chargeback on the busted sale (as they are the sale mediator) and rank down the sale in their system, setting the vendor to appear less reliable on the listings.

At least that would be the sensible way to do this.

I am not sure if we are discussing the same problems here. I agree that indie devs often put a price that seems to high for the game for me, so I dont buy those game. And I agree that those indie devs would probably make more money selling more copies for lower prices.

Another thing I agree with you on is that if indie dev cries that people should buy his game for full price instead of the bundle he himself decided to be a part of, then fuck him and his stupid decisions.

What I have a problem with is only the situation when a thief buys a shitload of keys from a developer directly or from any other place, and does that with a stolen credit card which is then hit with charge back so the developer/store has to give the money back. In this situation the developer/store has already given the keys, they had to give the money they earned back. So they earned zero dollars of it, and even lost some money due to those already used keys. Meanwhile, the thief gets the money he managed to get on G2A for the keys, and G2A gets its share. Thats what I have a problem with.
 

Mustawd

Guest
and G2A gets its share

1. If G2A is refunding money for canceled keys due to the G2A shield, then they are losers as much as the devs.
2. If they are replacing a canceled key with a legit key, then the dev comes ahead.

If a key gets canceled how exactly is that helping G2A out?
 

Angthoron

Arcane
Joined
Jul 13, 2007
Messages
13,056
What I have a problem with is only the situation when a thief buys a shitload of keys from a developer directly or from any other place, and does that with a stolen credit card which is then hit with charge back so the developer/store has to give the money back. In this situation the developer/store has already given the keys, they had to give the money they earned back. So they earned zero dollars of it, and even lost some money due to those already used keys. Meanwhile, the thief gets the money he managed to get on G2A for the keys, and G2A gets its share. Thats what I have a problem with.
Ah, fair enough then, yeah, that is a problem. I wonder if they really don't block bad vendors, though, or if it takes a "critical mass" of reports of bad keys/chargebacks/etc until they do anything - which can sadly take a long time, as you won't really expect bundle keys to ever be recalled, for example. Guess I'll have to read all those way-too-long articles and see if there's anything about that :)

and G2A gets its share

1. If G2A is refunding money for canceled keys due to the G2A shield, then they are losers as much as the devs.
2. If they are replacing a canceled key with a legit key, then the dev comes ahead.

If a key gets canceled how exactly is that helping G2A out?
Well, if the buyer doesn't buy the "protection", then G2A isn't "obligated" to do anything, though in reality they probably will anyway. So yeah, good point there.
 

Zdzisiu

Arcane
Joined
Dec 3, 2009
Messages
3,489
Btw, for those interested in how G2A Shield works, from their T&S:

5.12 Every User may purchase access to the security program for buyers („G2A Shield”). The fee for G2A Shield is displayed for each given product and is exclusive for individual products, in connection to which the User bought the G2A Shield. Every User may remove the G2A Shield option during the purchase, simply by unchecking the G2A Shield box. In the said case the fee for G2A Shield shall not be added. Subject to the provisions of point 5.15, G2A Shield allows the User to receive the replacement product in case the purchased product was faulty or different from the description. If such a replacement cannot be granted (and subject to the provisions of point 5.15,) the User who bought the G2A Shield shall receive a full refund for the said purchase.

5.13 The User may choose to purchase G2A Shield subscription (the “subscription”). The subscription is free of charge for one month from the purchase (“initial term”) and shall last for undefined period of time unless earlier terminated by User. After the initial term is lapsed the User shall pay to Company the remuneration in the amount of 1 EUR (+VAT and fees due to payment services providers) per each month. If the User does not want to continue the subscription after the initial term he/she needs to unselect subscription in his/hers account panel which can be done only during the last two days of the initial term. After the initial term the subscription can be terminated at any time. If the User deactivates the subscription and after that he/she decides to purchase the subscription again then the remuneration due to the Company amounts to 2 EUR (+VAT and fees due to payment services providers) per each month and shall be paid each time he/she purchases the subscription. The aforesaid remuneration for the subscription will be automatically deducted from Users credit card or G2A Wallet or any other available funds and the User accept on this.

5.14 Subject to the provisions of point 5.15, each User who purchases the subscription shall receive a full refund or the replacement product in case the purchased product was faulty or different from the description, regardless the product was purchased on the Site or from the Merchant integrated within G2A.COM ecosystem. However, to benefit from the subscription the product shall be purchased with G2APay solution. For the avoidance of doubt the “Merchant integrated within G2A.COM ecosystem” shall mean a third party (business entity) operating an online shop who has integrated G2APay solution within this online shop. To get the refund the User has to contact with G2A Shield specialist via Livechat communicator. The refund or replacement product shall not be granted if the User’s account was blocked or deleted or the User’s access to the Site was blocked due to violation of this Terms and Conditions.

5.15 In the case of a product having the form of an in-game item (excluding DLC keys and gift-links) costing EUR 100 or less the User shall be entitled to return such product pursuant to the G2A Shield or G2A Shield subscription services within 30 days from the initial purchase date. Upon successful product return, User will receive reimbursement of 60% of the product purchase price paid by the User. Product(s) referenced in this section costing more than EUR 100.00 shall not be covered by the G2A Shield or G2A Shield subscription services and sales of those products are final. G2A reserves the right to refuse to issue a replacement or refund if in G2A’s sole discretion G2A detects that a User has engaged in fraud, deception or abuse of the G2A Shield. Moreover, in the event that G2A detects a User has engaged in fraud, deceit or abuse after the issuance of a refund G2A reserves the right to reverse any refund already issued including withdrawal of any funds in said User’s G2A Wallet.

5.16 The time to process User’s refund request depends on the User’s rating and his buying history in G2A.COM ecosystem. The said rating is created by Users. For each transaction, Users can choose to rate each other by leaving a comment. Buyers can leave a positive, negative, or a neutral rating, negative or neutral rating plus a short comment. Sellers/Selling Users can leave a positive rating and a short comment.
 

Zdzisiu

Arcane
Joined
Dec 3, 2009
Messages
3,489
and G2A gets its share

1. If G2A is refunding money for canceled keys due to the G2A shield, then they are losers as much as the devs.
2. If they are replacing a canceled key with a legit key, then the dev comes ahead.

If a key gets canceled how exactly is that helping G2A out?
The question then is, how many of the keys are getting cancelled, and how many of them are not, because the dev has no way of doing it? I believe that was the case with the Punch Club developer, they were not able to connect the keys to the transactions that were done with stolen cc, so they had no way of telling which key they should recall. Yes, that is an oversight on their part. But it is also no excuse to exploit it for fraud.
 

Mustawd

Guest
G2A Shield allows the User to receive the replacement product in case the purchased product was faulty or different from the description. If such a replacement cannot be granted (and subject to the provisions of point 5.15,) the User who bought the G2A Shield shall receive a full refund for the said purchase.

2A reserves the right to refuse to issue a replacement or refund if in G2A’s sole discretion G2A detects that a User has engaged in fraud, deception or abuse of the G2A Shield. Moreover, in the event that G2A detects a User has engaged in fraud, deceit or abuse after the issuance of a refund G2A reserves the right to reverse any refund already issued including withdrawal of any funds in said User’s G2A Wallet.

So in the case a key gets cancelled G2A's shield either replaces the game or refunds it. In which case it's not in G2A's interest that a lot of these keys get canceled due to stolen CC's. So my point is not that G2A is being shady here. If anything it seems like they stand to lose if canceled keys are a prevalent thing.

In addition, how is a dev affected if a key gets cancelled? To me there's two scenarios:

1. G2A must buy a new key at the same or lower price. In this case the dev gets some money back. It's not great, but it's not nothing either. In G2A's case they lose money because they had to purchase an extra key.
2. The bundle sale is over and G2A decides to refund the money rather than replace a key that is probably now at full price. In this case the dev loses the money from having to pay the bank fee. G2A loses a commission or however they get their money, and their reputation for having reliable resales takes a hit.

I admit, it's not an awesome situation for a dev, but I'd hardly say that it's in G2A's best interest for cancellations to continue.
 

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