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My collected criticism on Pillars of Eternity (very minor spoilers)

Pillars of Eternity is


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Self-Ejected

Lurker King

Self-Ejected
The Real Fanboy
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Does imprisonment of NPCs actually matter whatsoever?

I sold the drug dealer mage to an animancer (a guinea pig for his experiments) for 200 bucks. I also order the jailer to beat them regularly, but nothing happened. It is the boring button: when you press the button, nothing awesome has to happen.
:negative:
 

Shevek

Arcane
Joined
Sep 20, 2003
Messages
1,570
That fight is good. If you are sub level 7, it can be tough due to the alpha damage from all the crossbows and guns.

I think that encounter design is actually alright but there some issues due to xp gain being a little too fast and the critical path being a bit undertuned (creates a sort of weird difficulty curve where shit starts well difficulty wise, then gets easy, then gets ok again). My next playthrough, I will test that theory by using that reduced xp mod when doing a PotD run with a custom party.
 
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rezaf

Cipher
Joined
Jan 26, 2015
Messages
650
Sounds like I didn't miss much when it comes to imprisonment then. Thanks guys.
 

Mastermind

Cognito Elite Material
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Bethestard
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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Once in a blue moon a slaver will come and offer you to buy someone for a laughable price. Or perhaps not. I only had that drug dealer in my dungeon, perhaps more important people, like that Death Godlike can be sold for more. It's not lice cash matters in this game.

Why do people keep saying this, I've bought a ton of expensive items from vendors.
 

Kz3r0

Arcane
Joined
May 28, 2008
Messages
27,013
Players that are bashing this game fits in one the following categories:

(A) Players blinded by nostalgia that want to have that feeling they had in the first time they played their favorite IE game.

(B) Players infuriated by Sawyer dismissive remarks about grognards and BG2.

(C) Combat fags that perceive as a failure every cRPG that doesn’t have the same tactical depth of their favorite strategy game.

(D) Players that want to look knowledgeable bitching about everything and being edgy.
(H) Players that correctly consider the game utterly mediocre, dumbed down and streamlined for the casual market, not only dissappointing but worrisome, expecially considering that they used Kickstarter for this.
 
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Haba

Harbinger of Decline
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Codex 2012 MCA Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2
Once in a blue moon a slaver will come and offer you to buy someone for a laughable price. Or perhaps not. I only had that drug dealer in my dungeon, perhaps more important people, like that Death Godlike can be sold for more. It's not lice cash matters in this game.

Why do people keep saying this, I've bought a ton of expensive items from vendors.

You get a few thousand AT BEST per prisoner. You'll get more from selling a couple of fine swords.
 

Mastermind

Cognito Elite Material
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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Once in a blue moon a slaver will come and offer you to buy someone for a laughable price. Or perhaps not. I only had that drug dealer in my dungeon, perhaps more important people, like that Death Godlike can be sold for more. It's not lice cash matters in this game.

Why do people keep saying this, I've bought a ton of expensive items from vendors.

You get a few thousand AT BEST per prisoner. You'll get more from selling a couple of fine swords.

I meant the comment about cash not mattering.
 

rezaf

Cipher
Joined
Jan 26, 2015
Messages
650
I meant the comment about cash not mattering.

If you're collecting the obviously valuable stuff and aren't hoarding (i.e. you sell what isn't useful to you), you have more than enough cash to buy everything you want despite the outrageous price tags - I guess that's why people keep saying this?
 

Mastermind

Cognito Elite Material
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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Sure, eventually, but I've never thought I was swarming in so much money that it didn't matter.
 
Self-Ejected

Lurker King

Self-Ejected
The Real Fanboy
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Players that are bashing this game fits in one the following categories:

(A) Players blinded by nostalgia that want to have that feeling they had in the first time they played their favorite IE game.

(B) Players infuriated by Sawyer dismissive remarks about grognards and BG2.

(C) Combat fags that perceive as a failure every cRPG that doesn’t have the same tactical depth of their favorite strategy game.

(D) Players that want to look knowledgeable bitching about everything and being edgy.

(H) Players that correctly consider the game utterly mediocre, dumbed down and streamlined for the casual market, not only dissappointing but worrisome, expecially considering that they used Kickstarter for this.

The only players that can lie to themselves to the point they can believe in (H) fall into the categories (B) or (D). The game have some streamlined bullshit? Yes, it has. It is utterly mediocre? In comparison to what, exactly? Shadowrun? Don’t be dishonest. The Kickstarter method is the only way we have to fund real cRPGs right know, but is far from perfect. If you believe that developers can deliver the classic of your dreams in less than three years, asking for far less money they need and promising a lot of stuff for backers that delay the development, you are completely delusional. Obsidian had to make a new system from scratch using a new engine in less than three years. If anything, I was impressed, actually. I thought the game would be much worse.
 

prodigydancer

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Feb 16, 2015
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utterly mediocre, dumbed down and streamlined for the casual market
"Mediocre" is your opinion and you're certainly entitled to it. But accusation like "dumbed down" and "streamlined" you need to back up with something substantial. If you simply hate helper features, welcome to Expert Mode.

I don't consider PoE very challenging even on PotD but I've been playing isometric CRPGs for nearly two decades. Even so, combat is still about tons of micro, making a good build is still about planning ahead, attributes are still meaningful. Yes, Mgt governs all damage and healing and it's a bit weird but is the end result that different? In the IE games, if we exclude classes with huge stat requirements across the board like Paladins, ideal single-class stats were MAX(Dex, Con, <class_primary_stat>) / MIN(<everything_else>). OK, you couldn't really dump Str because max carry weight was a thing to consider.

Like I said, there's some valid criticism - not only ITT. But there's much more of burnout-caused frustration: "hey, I can't enjoy games as much as I used to so I'll just complain about everything and maybe it'll make me feel better."
 
Self-Ejected

Lurker King

Self-Ejected
The Real Fanboy
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Like I said, there's some valid criticism - not only ITT. But there's much more of burnout-caused frustration: "hey, I can't enjoy games as much as I used to so I'll just complain about everything and maybe it'll make me feel better."

This.
 

Brancaleone

Liturgist
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Apr 28, 2015
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PoE is a true heir to Dragon Age Origins, more than because of its features, because of the approach to the first title of the new franchises.

I guess backers were under the impression that being without Evil Publisher Overlords would allow Obsidian to give free reins to their creativity, and my sensation is that Obsidian themselves very carefully created that expectation without ever saying explicitly (although I am probably missing some pieces of information).

But it seems evident that the main priority for this game was:

1) create a new, proprietary IP
2) playing it as safe as possible (hence the Forgotten Realms knockoff)
3) with as little effort as possible (hence the Forgotten Realms copypaste, with a sprinkle of Dark Souls and guns/Reinassance estetics)

Which is why the omnipresent, annoying, hamfisted loredump is what it is: because it is meant to nail IP copyright down to its smallest details, in the quickest possible way. Success.

And the second priority was, of course, pretty graphics, art direction, and GFX, which would guarantee a respectable level of sales (and reviews). Success.

All the rest, plot, quests, companions, NPC's, combat, items, are just cobbled up in whatever leftovers of time, energy and funds remained from the first two priorities, which is why they have huge problems while, for example, graphics are almost perfect. So we have a series of loosely connected plotholes as main story, no player motivation, utterly forgettable main antagonist, see-through companions, excel spreadsheet itemization, copypasted encounters, etc. Even the combat design reeks of having to get it over with as quickly as possible: nail positioning with engagement so you don't have to waste time programming any AI to speak of, make everything work against everything else, and so on. The vaunted need to 'balance' everything actually consists in making everything as similar and levelled as possible from the very start (and gated as well), so you don't have to waste time balancing encounters/levels/abilities/spells. An example of this is character attributes: had they any meaningful impact, the swings they went through during the last Beta versions could have been called huge, but since they were designed to have little impact, Obsidian could just quickfire different versions to see what stuck in a very short time without really having to spend much time balancing.

Dragon Age did the same thing: nail down the IP, playing it safe (A Song of Ice and Fire knockoff with Lord of the Rings baddies), with pretty graphics and animations. Everything else (plot, combat, itemization, quests, encounter variety, etc.), with little exceptions, took a back seat. At least they ripped off (mostly) good stuff like G. Martin's, instead of boring crap like Forgotten Realms, although the final result is bland and derivative as hell just the same.


Which leads to what I think is the main problem for many of the disappointed crowd: that the Kickstarter pitch give them the illusion that Obsidian with no Evil Publishing Overlords would be free to create some amazing and original setting, story, companions and quests, but such freedom was used by Obsidian in order to secure as much of the IP as possible, play it safe with derivative stuff and thinly disguised FR knockoffs, and give everything a nice shine, at the (relative) expenses of the actual game. Which is not bad, but a far cry from what the Kickstarter atmosphere suggested.
 
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Athelas

Arcane
Joined
Jun 24, 2013
Messages
4,502
PoE is a true heir to Dragon Age Origins, more than because of its features, because of the approach to the first title of the new franchises.
[...}
Dragon Age did the same thing: nail down the IP, playing it safe (A Song of Ice and Fire knockoff with Lord of the Rings baddies), with pretty graphics and animations. Everything else (plot, combat, itemization, quests, encounter variety, etc.), with little exceptions, took a back seat. At least they ripped off (mostly) good stuff like G. Martin's, instead of boring crap like Forgotten Realms, although the final result is bland and derivative as hell just the same.
What a weird analogy. You know Dragon Age: Origins was in development for more than half a decade, right? More than twice of PoE's development time. Low-effort and quick cash-in it was not. It most certainly wasn't praised for its graphics (which looked worse than comparable games released at the time) and its plot/writing is obviously something the writers poured a ton of effort in and were very much proud of. Basically, all your arguments can be debunked simply by googling the development history of the game.

Ultimately, many issues that PoE (and other Kickstarter games) suffers from come ironically from too many constraints being placed on the designers and writers. Not by publishers, but by the promises made in the pitch and in the stretch goals. Eleven unique classes, two cities, a stronghold, a mega-dungeon, a story and setting in the mold of Baldur's Gate. These things have to be realized on a limited budget and by a dev team that may not necessarily feel very passionate about them, which can lead to simplified quest structures and lacking encounter design. Apparently Obsidian had very low expectations and were only expecting to make like 100k on the first day (rather than the million they got), so they went for something more conservative than many of their previous publisher-funded games.

Though in hindsight it also has to be said that it obviously wasn't a very good idea to assign as lead developer of an IE successor someone who seems to have fiercely disliked the IE games.

:0-13:

Even the combat design reeks of having to get it over with as quickly as possible: nail positioning with engagement so you don't have to waste time programming any AI to speak of
This is a baffling statement. Designing the engagement system with its accompanying A.I. clauses, UI and engagement-related abilities obviously took away more resources than it spared. Simply having free movement would've freed up a ton of resources.
The same goes for your other claims of laziness: i.e. spellcasters in PoE actually don't share any spells, unlike their D&D counterparts.

Though I guess you're actually being more charitable than me towards the developers by believing they were lazy rather than falling short.
 
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Athelas

Arcane
Joined
Jun 24, 2013
Messages
4,502
Don't forget "Torment style writing" either :smug:

"What if we can only be assured of nothing?" :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:
I did point this out in one of my other critiques. The story suffers from being a pastiche of BG and PS:T.

(Although it's not nearly as bad as it's being made out as.)

Did you actually finish the game? That's the second-last conversation you're quoting from, right?
 

Brancaleone

Liturgist
Joined
Apr 28, 2015
Messages
1,004
Location
Norcia
PoE is a true heir to Dragon Age Origins, more than because of its features, because of the approach to the first title of the new franchises.
[...}
Dragon Age did the same thing: nail down the IP, playing it safe (A Song of Ice and Fire knockoff with Lord of the Rings baddies), with pretty graphics and animations. Everything else (plot, combat, itemization, quests, encounter variety, etc.), with little exceptions, took a back seat. At least they ripped off (mostly) good stuff like G. Martin's, instead of boring crap like Forgotten Realms, although the final result is bland and derivative as hell just the same.
What a weird analogy. You know Dragon Age: Origins was in development for more than half a decade, right? More than twice of PoE's development time. Low-effort and quick cash-in it was not. It most certainly wasn't praised for its graphics (which looked worse than comparable games released at the same time) and its plot/writing is obviously something the writers poured a ton of effort in and were very much proud of. Basically, all your arguments can be debunked simply by googling the development history of the game.

Ultimately, many issues that PoE (and perhaps other Kickstarter RPG's) suffers from come ironically from too many constraints being placed on the designers and writers. Not by publishers, but by the promises made in the pitch and in the stretch goals. Eleven unique classes, two cities, a stronghold, a mega-dungeon, a story and setting in the mold of Baldur's Gate. These things have to be realized on a limited budget and by a dev team that may not necessarily feel very passionate about them.

Though in hindsight it also has to be said that it obviously wasn't a very good idea to assign as lead developer of an IE successor someone who seems to have fiercely disliked the IE games.

:0-13:

Even the combat design reeks of having to get it over with as quickly as possible: nail positioning with engagement so you don't have to waste time programming any AI to speak of
This is a baffling statement. Designing the engagement system with its accompanying A.I. clauses, UI and engagement-related abilities obviously took away more resources than it spared. Simply having free movement would've freed up a ton of resources.
The same goes for your other claims of laziness: i.e. spellcasters in PoE actually don't share any spells, unlike their D&D counterparts.

Though I guess you're actually being more charitable than me towards the developers by believing they were lazy rather than falling short.
You are looking at Dragon Age: Origins' developement as if nothing about it changed or shifted or was scrapped or turned upside down when they passed under EA in October 2007: feel free to google it as well. But I'm not calling Dragon Age a low effort/quick cash in, that's true. Because quite a bit of the three years of pre-EA work was salvaged, one way or the other. Still, the finished version of Dragon Age shows a lot of priority given to defining the IP copyright down to the fine details. And I'll agree that the graphics weren't that good for the time, but certainly not because they did not spend a lot of resources on it: the truckload of combat animations alone (which nobady could say were really necessary) show what kind of priority graphics were.

And speaking about the (self-imposed) Kickstarter constraints just shows even more how loredumping and IP copyrighting took priority even over promises made in the Kickstarter pitch and stretch goals. While the Stronghold, the Megadungeon, itemization, AI, city content, etc., etc. (and most of the game overall) operate with a 'skeleton crew', so to speak.

Maybe they ended up consuming more resources with the engagement than it spared, but that only shows that they planned badly and failed the execution, not that their aim was not to cut corners with combat thanks to engagement.

Spells are similar the kind of excel spreadsheet stuff we had in IWD and IWD2, and the same goes for items. Yes, they are very lazy, although of course same goes with IWD and IWD2 (although they had to draw from D&D, but as Baldur's Gate 2 shows, it could be done in a different way).

But I'm not being leninent towards the developers: I think (despite their claims) that they were mainly concerned with the IP and visual polish (which they achieved) AND they fell short as well with the rest of the game.
 

Rake

Arcane
Joined
Oct 11, 2012
Messages
2,969
IWD had spreadsheet spells? Wut
While that is hyperbole, IWD1+2 itemization and spells were a clear step down from BG2 and closer to PoE in feel. (items more than spells)
Spells were in fact ok, just nothing special. But nothing close to PoE borefest. But itemization was shit in IWDs as well. Slightly better than PoE's, but that's not a high bar to clear
 

Lhynn

Arcane
Joined
Aug 28, 2013
Messages
9,824
IWD1 itemization was decent, it didnt have a lot of variety due to being low-mid level, but it wasnt boring.
 

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