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My collected criticism on Pillars of Eternity (very minor spoilers)

Pillars of Eternity is


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ZagorTeNej

Arcane
Joined
Dec 10, 2012
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1,980
While that is hyperbole, IWD1+2 itemization and spells were a clear step down from BG2 and closer to PoE in feel. (items more than spells)
Spells were in fact ok, just nothing special. But nothing close to PoE borefest. But itemization was shit in IWDs as well. Slightly better than PoE's, but that's not a high bar to clear

IWD had a couple of items that stood out, Mesenger of Sseth, Valiant (Long sword of Action is much better though), Pale Justice, Singing Blade of Aihonen, Vexed armor etc. Mind you, I last played the game probably 6-7 years ago (if not longer than that). On the other hand, I can barely remember any item from PoE and I beat that game very recently.
 

Rake

Arcane
Joined
Oct 11, 2012
Messages
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While that is hyperbole, IWD1+2 itemization and spells were a clear step down from BG2 and closer to PoE in feel. (items more than spells)
Spells were in fact ok, just nothing special. But nothing close to PoE borefest. But itemization was shit in IWDs as well. Slightly better than PoE's, but that's not a high bar to clear

IWD had a couple of items that stood out, Mesenger of Sseth, Valiant (Long sword of Action is much better though), Pale Justice, Singing Blade of Aihonen, Vexed armor etc. Mind you, I last played the game probably 6-7 years ago (if not longer than that). On the other hand, I can barely remember any item from PoE and I beat that game very recently.
5 items from 200 in a 40 hour game aren't much though. That PoE is lacking even those 5 items is tellling
 

Rake

Arcane
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Oct 11, 2012
Messages
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IWD1 itemization was decent, it didnt have a lot of variety due to being low-mid level, but it wasnt boring.
It wasn't interesting either.
Fact is, there shouldn't be systemic,standard magic bonuses in items besides the generic +X [and even there PoE's fine/exceptional/superb (even though the originaly planned material-based skein/.../.../dugan steel/... was even better) was superior].
Besides that, every additional magic property should be handcrafted, in a per case way, and explaned in the item's description/ history as well. BG trilogy did this better than any RPG out there.And ffs no persentages. Anything else feels like action-like shit, like Diablo.
 

Lhynn

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IWD1 itemization was decent, it didnt have a lot of variety due to being low-mid level, but it wasnt boring.
It wasn't interesting either.
Fact is, there shouldn't be systemic,standard magic bonuses in items besides the generic +X [and even there PoE's fine/exceptional/superb (even though the originaly planned material-based skein/.../.../dugan steel/... was even better) was superior].
Besides that, every additional magic property should be handcrafted, in a per case way, and explaned in the item's description/ history as well. BG trilogy did this better than any RPG out there.And ffs no persentages. Anything else feels like action-like shit, like Diablo.
Wasnt that different from BGII, just less of it.

You had bathed in blood, havent played IWD in like 12 years and i still remember where and how i got it. Gauntlets of the elven might, which were kind of odd, The mages dagger, all versions. Remember there were tons of sweet axes i never got to use because i never bothered with an axe user on my team, i remember regreting that p. often. The incinerator reminded me of celestial fury, and pale justice i guess, p. sure there are other gud items.

200 items in a game is not a LOT of items. It did have a masterwork version of every weapon, but those were only useful at the start, and ive always liked that, saving up some money to get one of your warriors a slightly better nonmagical weapon.

IWD1 is really underrated around here.

IWD2 was the real stinker of the old IE games.
 

ArchAngel

Arcane
Joined
Mar 16, 2015
Messages
19,886
While that is hyperbole, IWD1+2 itemization and spells were a clear step down from BG2 and closer to PoE in feel. (items more than spells)
Spells were in fact ok, just nothing special. But nothing close to PoE borefest. But itemization was shit in IWDs as well. Slightly better than PoE's, but that's not a high bar to clear

IWD had a couple of items that stood out, Mesenger of Sseth, Valiant (Long sword of Action is much better though), Pale Justice, Singing Blade of Aihonen, Vexed armor etc. Mind you, I last played the game probably 6-7 years ago (if not longer than that). On the other hand, I can barely remember any item from PoE and I beat that game very recently.
5 items from 200 in a 40 hour game aren't much though. That PoE is lacking even those 5 items is tellling
Not true, PoE has 3 unique shields and some items with a spell that can be cast from them.
 

tdphys

Learned
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Jan 30, 2015
Messages
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the event horizon
IWD1 itemization was decent, it didnt have a lot of variety due to being low-mid level, but it wasnt boring.
It wasn't interesting either.
Fact is, there shouldn't be systemic,standard magic bonuses in items besides the generic +X [and even there PoE's fine/exceptional/superb (even though the originaly planned material-based skein/.../.../dugan steel/... was even better) was superior].
Besides that, every additional magic property should be handcrafted, in a per case way, and explaned in the item's description/ history as well. BG trilogy did this better than any RPG out there.And ffs no persentages. Anything else feels like action-like shit, like Diablo.
Wasnt that different from BGII, just less of it.

You had bathed in blood, havent played IWD in like 12 years and i still remember where and how i got it. Gauntlets of the elven might, which were kind of odd, The mages dagger, all versions. Remember there were tons of sweet axes i never got to use because i never bothered with an axe user on my team, i remember regreting that p. often. The incinerator reminded me of celestial fury, and pale justice i guess, p. sure there are other gud items.

200 items in a game is not a LOT of items. It did have a masterwork version of every weapon, but those were only useful at the start, and ive always liked that, saving up some money to get one of your warriors a slightly better nonmagical weapon.

IWD1 is really underrated around here.

IWD2 was the real stinker of the old IE games.


IWD1 I enjoyed and finished, plus the expansions. IWD2, I have yet to finish, couldn't get past the dragon's eye reruns... totally agree with this statement
 

Brancaleone

Liturgist
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Apr 28, 2015
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Location
Norcia
IWD had spreadsheet spells? Wut
While that is hyperbole, IWD1+2 itemization and spells were a clear step down from BG2 and closer to PoE in feel. (items more than spells)
Spells were in fact ok, just nothing special. But nothing close to PoE borefest. But itemization was shit in IWDs as well. Slightly better than PoE's, but that's not a high bar to clear
Yes, mine was quite an (excessive, to be honest) hyperbole. It would have been better had I said that PoE brings to an extreme the tendencies of IWD and IWD 2 regarding spells and items.
The spell selection in the IWD and IWD2 was not too bad, although I don't know how much it depended on the fact that they had to draw from D&D spells, and they couldn't leave too many staples out of the list, hence the relative variety. But their spell selections show a distinct preference for stuff like: damage spell, element x, low impact; damage spell, element x, medium impact; damage spell, element x, high impact; damage spell, element y, low impact etc.; prayer level 1; prayer level 2 with different name; prayer level 3 with different name (and all stackable). Again, I'm exaggerating, but that was the overall feeling I got from them.
With the items, where there was more free rein, paradoxically the tendency is more pronounced, and it gets a step closer to excel spreadsheet. Again, not bad itemization overall, but rather dull.

That said, I understand having that kind of approach in IWD and IWD2, which the producer saw as little more than cash grabs to be churned out in little time (and considering that they turned out remarkably well, especially the first): but to find an extreme version of this approach in PoE, without the Evil Producer Overlords dictating their will, reinforces my impression that most of the efforts and resources were intentionally spent on nailing down the IP and giving the game a pretty shine.
 
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Athelas

Arcane
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Jun 24, 2013
Messages
4,502
That said, I understand having that kind of approach in IWD and IWD2, which the producer saw as little more than cash grabs to be churned out in little time (and considering that they turned out remarkably well, especially the first): but to find an extreme version of this approach in PoE, without the Evil Producer Overlords dictating their will, reinforces my impression that most of the efforts and resources were intentionally spent on nailing down the IP and giving the game a pretty shine.
Again, this is some very weird reasoning. Giving equipment a bunch of underwhelming effect takes as much effort/resources as giving equipment a bunch of powerful effects. It's not a question of resource allocation, but a question of design goal, unlike say encounter design or quest structure, which do require simply more man hours to some extent to reach better results.

And speaking about the (self-imposed) Kickstarter constraints just shows even more how loredumping and IP copyrighting took priority even over promises made in the Kickstarter pitch and stretch goals.

What do 'loredumping' and 'IP copyrighting' even mean in this context? How would registering the Pillars trademark cut into the game's budget?

Maybe they ended up consuming more resources with the engagement than it spared, but that only shows that they planned badly and failed the execution, not that their aim was not to cut corners with combat thanks to engagement.
You have yet to explain how it was supposed to cut corners. Implementing a system on top of something costs more resources than not implementing that system. This is common sense. People have to design, program and test all that stuff.
 
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Lord Andre

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I see a lot of people bringing up the short development cycle as a defense for the game's mediocrity. "Considering it was made in x time it's actually amazing how...etc."

On the subject I would like to make 2 points:

1. Encounter design and story are the last 2 things a veteran rpg developer skimps on. You cut graphics, voice over, you cut length (leave some for the expansion), basically you cut anything BUT the encounter design, the story and the character system. Obsdian focused on engine and graphics and spent a ton of time reiterating the char system - the last only with passable results. Decades have passed by now since the gaming industry was born and it's common knowledge that a tight quality game is better that a drawn out filler infested 100h behemoth. Apparently Obsidian is not aware of this rule of thumb. And before you jump in with "kickstarter goals...megadungeon...11 classes...bullshit", the megadungeon and stronghold should have been made part of the main plot. It's a no brainer. If you're forced to include content and you're strapped for time you integrate it into main plot and take out some other less fleshed out plot - that way the workload remains the same and everyone gets their features + quality. As for the classes, if you can't come up with 11 classes while ripping of D&D without wasting a large amount of time than you must be a special kind of stupid.

2. Sawyer has stated on many occasions, mostly interviews I think, that without publishers they can keep the game in pre-production for as long as necessary and keep reiterating until they got everything down. Then it's just a matter of implementing it into the engine. Easy as pie. That's all well and good, but how about the empty wilderness areas infested with copy-paste trash mobs, the dungeons with the same 2 encounters copy-pasted every 5 steps and one quest item/exposition at the end, the crafting system that is just there as some sort of cheat-console, the stronghold with it's nonsensical spirit butler, the revolt that closes the city for exactly 5 minutes, the bounty quests that are basically "go back to middle of map x for 1 tough fight", the reputation system that does jack-shit, the companions that follow you without any reason what-so-ever, the skill system which amounts to 1 dude with high mechanics and the rest who gives a fuck, the fact that fights give little to no xp or worthwhile items even though the game is bloated with combat and so on. Can someone explain to me what exactly did they get down in pre-production considered the previously mentioned fuck-ups ?

In my opinion it's not an issue of time, it's an issue of a missing dude that was supposed to go: "You've got a map with a fire lake in the middle and a drakes+xaurips encounter copy-pasted 9 times around it. You've put in no secrets, no puzzles, no quest, no dialogue, no reward items, no flavor or lore related events, nothing except 9 god-damned copy pasted encounters around a damn lake and that's the whole map. Clean out your desk, gather your shit and get the fuck out. You're fired."
 

Brancaleone

Liturgist
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Messages
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That said, I understand having that kind of approach in IWD and IWD2, which the producer saw as little more than cash grabs to be churned out in little time (and considering that they turned out remarkably well, especially the first): but to find an extreme version of this approach in PoE, without the Evil Producer Overlords dictating their will, reinforces my impression that most of the efforts and resources were intentionally spent on nailing down the IP and giving the game a pretty shine.
Again, this is some very weird reasoning. Giving equipment a bunch of underwhelming effect takes as much effort/resources as giving equipment a bunch of powerful effects. It's not a question of resource allocation, but a question of design goal, unlike say encounter design or quest structure, which do require simply more man hours to some extent to reach better results.

And speaking about the (self-imposed) Kickstarter constraints just shows even more how loredumping and IP copyrighting took priority even over promises made in the Kickstarter pitch and stretch goals.

What do 'loredumping' and 'IP copyrighting' even mean in this context? How would registering the Pillars trademark cut into the game's budget?


Maybe they ended up consuming more resources with the engagement than it spared, but that only shows that they planned badly and failed the execution, not that their aim was not to cut corners with combat thanks to engagement.
You have yet to explain how it was supposed to cut corners. Implementing a system on top of something costs more resources than not implementing that system. This is common sense. People have to design, program and test all that stuff.

a) Nobody ever talken about underwhelming vs powerful effects. This is some very weird reading on your behalf.

b) spending a lot of time defining all the details of lore/history/facts and cramming them all in the first game, whether they fit or not (they didn't, most of the time). Two examples. They managed to shoehorn at least by mention all the possible soul-related circumstances (soul-hijacking, soul-renting, soul-franchising, soul-popamoling, etc.) they could think of, and for most of them it feels really uncalled for. And they played the most epic revelation (the gods were created by mortals) already in the first game (and with a low level party). This is what I referred to, and is it especially a priority when the 'new' setting is particularly original, which increases by much the risk of having part of it leaked or mirrored by some other production or 'indipendently created' by someone else before you have the chance to use it.
Mind you, Dragon Age: Origins went more or less the same route, and already with Awakening they had to go against the basics of the established lore in order to conjure up something new (the Architect and the darkspawns with free will or something like that, I don't even remember).

c) engagement: no real AI required, much more defined roles for at least a few classes (tanks especially, of course), much less need to come up with crowd control abilities/spells, no need to try to imagine unpredictable occurrences or scenarios due to positioning and therefore even less balancing efforts required, part of the itemization that practically writes itself...do I have to go on? Though I admit that the plan backfired at least in part, that's true.
 

Athelas

Arcane
Joined
Jun 24, 2013
Messages
4,502
b) spending a lot of time defining all the details of lore/history/facts and cramming them all in the first game, whether they fit or not (they didn't, most of the time). Two examples. They managed to shoehorn at least by mention all the possible soul-related circumstances (soul-hijacking, soul-renting, soul-franchising, soul-popamoling, etc.) they could think of, and for most of them it feels really uncalled for. And they played the most epic revelation (the gods were created by mortals) already in the first game (and with a low level party). This is what I referred to, and is it especially a priority when the 'new' setting is particularly original, which increases by much the risk of having part of it leaked or mirrored by some other production or 'indipendently created' by someone else before you have the chance to use it.
You still haven't addressed my question of how this took away resources from the rest of the budget (ditto for the IP copyrighting). It's a story-driven RPG, the game would have to have a plot regardless even if we assume some ulterior agenda to dump as much lore into the game as possible. The game doesn't even seem to have that many total words compared to many other comparable RPG's.

c) engagement: no real AI required
Okay, do you understand how video game A.I. works? It has to be developed regardless - the engagement system adds more factors, like A.I. having to check whether a character is already engaged or not.

In my opinion it's not an issue of time, it's an issue of a missing dude that was supposed to go: "You've got a map with a fire lake in the middle and a drakes+xaurips encounter copy-pasted 9 times around it. You've put in no secrets, no puzzles, no quest, no dialogue, no reward items, no flavor or lore related events, nothing except 9 god-damned copy pasted encounters around a damn lake and that's the whole map. Clean out your desk, gather your shit and get the fuck out. You're fired."
http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/gaming/...e-optional-says-obsidian.html#~pbifklricV3EKL
The original Baldur's Gate had 110 maps which was "extremely open" with a ton of wilderness maps but the "content density wasn't very high". Its sequel was the opposite, Sawyer said, with a high density of content but "exploration was de-emphasised".

"So we've tried to strike a nice middle ground [in Pillars of Eternity], where it didn't feel like we had maps for the sake of having them," Sawyer explained.

"We have a lot of cool exploration in there, but there's a good content density so you don't feel like, 'I spent 10 minutes wandering all of this map and I didn't mind s**t'."
:balance:
 
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Brancaleone

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b) spending a lot of time defining all the details of lore/history/facts and cramming them all in the first game, whether they fit or not (they didn't, most of the time). Two examples. They managed to shoehorn at least by mention all the possible soul-related circumstances (soul-hijacking, soul-renting, soul-franchising, soul-popamoling, etc.) they could think of, and for most of them it feels really uncalled for. And they played the most epic revelation (the gods were created by mortals) already in the first game (and with a low level party). This is what I referred to, and is it especially a priority when the 'new' setting is particularly original, which increases by much the risk of having part of it leaked or mirrored by some other production or 'indipendently created' by someone else before you have the chance to use it.
You still haven't addressed my question of how this took away resources from the rest of the budget (ditto for the IP copyrighting). It's a story-driven RPG, the game would have to have a plot regardless even if we assume some ulterior agenda to dump as much lore into the game as possible. The game doesn't even seem to have that many total words compared to many other comparable RPG's.

c) engagement: no real AI required
Okay, do you understand how video game A.I. works? It has to be developed regardless - the engagement system adds more factors, like A.I. having to check whether a character is already engaged or not.

In my opinion it's not an issue of time, it's an issue of a missing dude that was supposed to go: "You've got a map with a fire lake in the middle and a drakes+xaurips encounter copy-pasted 9 times around it. You've put in no secrets, no puzzles, no quest, no dialogue, no reward items, no flavor or lore related events, nothing except 9 god-damned copy pasted encounters around a damn lake and that's the whole map. Clean out your desk, gather your shit and get the fuck out. You're fired."
http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/gaming/...e-optional-says-obsidian.html#~pbifklricV3EKL
The original Baldur's Gate had 110 maps which was "extremely open" with a ton of wilderness maps but the "content density wasn't very high". Its sequel was the opposite, Sawyer said, with a high density of content but "exploration was de-emphasised".

"So we've tried to strike a nice middle ground [in Pillars of Eternity], where it didn't feel like we had maps for the sake of having them," Sawyer explained.

"We have a lot of cool exploration in there, but there's a good content density so you don't feel like, 'I spent 10 minutes wandering all of this map and I didn't mind s**t'."
:balance:
Ok, more examples. It's getting tedious though.
For example: you waste time putting into the game all the creature you had thought of, but leaving them really shallow, instead of doing just a part, fleshing them out properly, and leaving the rest to a concept level and saving them for expansions, sequels. PoE has in it a much greater number of creatures that it gives you the impression of having, and that's a result of that philosophy.
For example: instead of spending time tightening the plot, rewriting it, or throwing it away and start anew with a decent one, you waste your time writing and 'integrating' into the plot and the game all the loredump you have in your notes, regardless of whether it fits, and the result is this sort of encyclopedy of loosely connected bits and (many time) huge fragments of history, lore, soul-philosophy, most of the time without actual examples in the gameworld. So instead of less loredump but more actual instances of it they went for full loredump (which takes time) but little evidence of it in the gameworld.
I was going to write about the soul 'metaphisics' and 'the gods were made', but I just get the feeling you'll copypaste ad libitum the "you haven't explained bla bla bla", and I'm getting fed up.

Ha ha ha ha about the AI: are you talking about an ideal AI, or about the actual PoE 'AI'?

You keep replying by quoting Sawyer's PR instead of the game itself (and I couldn't give a flying fuck about Obsidian's PR, really). That as if you told me that, for example, the Kia is shit, and I kept countering it by quoting the Kia's commercials.
 

Copper

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Shame they have tons of maps for the sake of having them - there's what, 3 NPCs in Dunryd Row to interact with, and bugger all else? (Did not rob, maybe awesome loot?) Anyway, for what you get out of it, the whole place could just be a scripted interaction (and arguably would be better for it - just ring Lady Webb on the cypher-phone when you need to report in.) Plenty of other quest-giver npcs hiding behind loading screens you have little reason to go through if you're actually roleplaying, not hoovering XP.
 

DeepOcean

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We have a lot of cool exploration in there, but there's a good content density so you don't feel like, 'I spent 10 minutes wandering all of this map and I didn't mind s**t'."
PoE really ressucitate the spirit of BG 1... I almost gave up on Gnoll Stronghold on BG 1, almost did the same on Searing Falls. Yeah... PoE has more content density, I just question if copy pasting xaurips everywhere counts as content for Sawyer.
 

Athelas

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I thought content density referred to stuff like encountering NPC's and (mini-)quests in the wilderness. PoE's wilderness areas make BG's look like a veritable embarrassment of riches. Either they ran out of the budget/resources to implement that stuff, or they consider mobs of wildlife to be 'content density'.
 

Metal Hurlant

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Codex USB, 2014 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign
I felt the C&C in the game was just an illusion, more so at the end of Act 2. I was just clicking though the dialogue options and trying to get all the same numbers in my personal reputation.

Trying to get all 3's by meta-gaming the dialogue options but ended with a 4 and a 2. I fucked up. :negative:

kSov2It.jpg

And when I think about it, when I'm trying to get all 3's in my reputation with meta-gaming the dialogue by selecting reputation options to get all those 3's, there's not much consequence at all. The whole personal/party reputation feels so superfluous and meaningless to me.
 

Ellef

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Everyone seems to be shitting on BG1 wilderness density, but unique encounters with people with unique items which fundamentally change how they perform > 5 packs of functionally identical troll + pwgra groups with lots of flavour text.
 

Sensuki

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Codex 2014 Serpent in the Staglands Shadorwun: Hong Kong A Beautifully Desolate Campaign
And when I think about it, when I'm trying to get all 3's in my reputation with meta-gaming the dialogue by selecting reputation options to get all those 3's, there's not much consequence at all. The whole personal/party reputation feels so superfluous and meaningless to me.

I agree. I think I prefer scripted reputation to systematic reputation. And yes, the game has choice, but often lacks consequence.
 

SausageInYourFace

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Divinity: Original Sin 2 BattleTech Bubbles In Memoria A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. My team has the sexiest and deadliest waifus you can recruit. Pathfinder: Wrath
I felt the C&C in the game was just an illusion, more so at the end of Act 2. I was just clicking though the dialogue options and trying to get all the same numbers in my personal reputation.

Trying to get all 3's by meta-gaming the dialogue options but ended with a 4 and a 2. I fucked up. :negative:

kSov2It.jpg

And when I think about it, when I'm trying to get all 3's in my reputation with meta-gaming the dialogue by selecting reputation options to get all those 3's, there's not much consequence at all. The whole personal/party reputation feels so superfluous and meaningless to me.


The game gives you the ability to roleplay, just pick what dialogue option you like best or what you think is most appropriate to your character. You can even turn off the meta-info in the options. If you try to game the system for whatever reason its hardly the games fault but your own.
 

DeepOcean

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Everyone seems to be shitting on BG1 wilderness density, but unique encounters with people with unique items which fundamentally change how they perform > 5 packs of functionally identical troll + pwgra groups with lots of flavour text.
Yep, after killing Brage, the insane captain of the guard that was killing everyone he met, here what I found:
2015-04-29%2020_26_28-Greenshot_zpsulug6og4.jpg

Pretty handy sword if you give it to a good fighter, just have a remove curse spell when you don't want to use it anymore. On PoE you would find a sword with +4 accuracy to go on the pile of sword +4 accuracy you have on your inventory.
 

mediocrepoet

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Codex 2012 Codex+ Now Streaming! MCA Project: Eternity Divinity: Original Sin 2
I think the itemization thing gets overplayed a bit. Most of the items are fairly generic, but there are a few standouts with unique features and names that are good to have. That I can't remember names offhand is more related (I think) to some of the language choices for naming than anything. The fact is, having a massive pile of "fine swords" is no different than the games where you have a massive number of [weapon/armour] +1 that you sell off. But yeah, 2E D&D had fairly interesting itemization right from the get go and the BG designers were good at working a number of them in, even the Deck of Many Things. That being said, POE doesn't have reams of source material to build from. It was all being created for the game, from items and effects to the system itself. The two types of work are quite different - BG only really had to worry about implementing existing ideas rather than coming up with the ideas in the first place.

Even though I liked the game, there were a few things that bugged me. One of the bigger ones was in the last playthrough I did (on PotD difficulty), on the second Raedric fight, the fampyrs swarmed my party and focus-fire killed everyone except tanky Eder. They then proceeded to literally run in circles around him, attacking now and again, but mostly just running with no engagement lines going either way. As I recall, most of the mobs were blown up by Raedric's fireballs rather than anything I ended up doing. It was quite possibly the most retarded thing I've seen in any RPG ever. I'd considered reloading to try for a cleaner win, but after seeing that display of "unique" AI, I couldn't be bothered.
 

ArchAngel

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We have a lot of cool exploration in there, but there's a good content density so you don't feel like, 'I spent 10 minutes wandering all of this map and I didn't mind s**t'."
PoE really ressucitate the spirit of BG 1... I almost gave up on Gnoll Stronghold on BG 1, almost did the same on Searing Falls. Yeah... PoE has more content density, I just question if copy pasting xaurips everywhere counts as content for Sawyer.
Loser
 

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