MY IMPRESSIONS OF GENEFORGE SERIES

[Correct_Carlo]

Dexterity is useless if you are not playing a ranged Guardian (which I've never done because ammo is limited, which sucks as it's one more thing you have to manage and worry about. Plus it's more expensive to have to split stats bewteen strength for armor and dexterity for ranged. Cheaper to go melee). Dexterity does affect dodge, but it's expensive to raise and the pay off isn't worth it just for dodge. Most main attributes are kind of overrated in Geneforge. Unless you are a shaper (who need enough intelligence to maintain creations), you should probably just raise enough strength to wear whatever armor you need and no more. It does affect to hit and damage, but it's really, really, expensive so if your main melee skills are cheaper up them first. A bit of endurance helps too, but especially in G2, if you're playing a guardian parry is way more important than endurance. Parry is super broken in G2. Raising it above 15 can make you an unhittable god. Enjoy it while it lasts, though, as it's nerfed in G3.

Also, I'd say don't waste points in intelligence or shaping skills if you are playing a guardian or agent. It pays off big to min/max these games and only up the skills relevant to your class, if you're into that sort of play style (I know some people find that tedious as it means you can pretty much only play one way, but it does pay off....especially on torment). Especially in G2, concentrate on parry. If you want to shape cannon fodder you will eventually find items that increase your shaping stats, but I made it through G2 as a gaurdian on torment without shaping once.

Gazers are the worst in Geneforge when you play solo because their mental effects are deadly on Guardians and they are super resistant to daze for agents. I'd say go level up and come back later. Everything is doable late game once you're strong enough.

Also, I can't remember what Student's belt does, but if it raises int or shaping skills, I wouldn't bother with it (although, items that raise int/shaping skills are usefull to keep around so you can wear them, shape something, then take them off). You need to maximize your strengths, so I say girdle of endurance.

 

[Gozma]

I feel like any build in these besides all-in magic/fire shaping with a shaper and all-in casting with an agent feels like butt. There's so much combat that wasting the first turn getting into melee ten thousand times isn't tolerable.

As far as philosophy... I get annoyed that the stock Shaper justification is "we created you therefore you must be obedient and thankful". You have to say this kind of shit to get +Shaper points most of the time. Real propaganda tries to justify with a whole army of rationalizations, often mutually conflicting, not just one meh idea.

 

[Gozma]

Bumping this again because I wanna talk about Geneforge on da Codex

Geneforge 4 sucks. It has the same shitty basic Bioware/KotOR structure as Geneforge 3 with the "two path" choice and semi-linear chapter construction except this time I can't kid myself that it's just a Vogel experiment, where Geneforge 1 is his Fallout/Dark Sun:SL structured GF, Gene 2 is his all faction-based game, and GF3 is his shot at Bioware. GF4 is the one where he's like yep the Bioware structure is the correct one.

He also blew his chance to follow the logic of the first three games where the Shapers are a sclerotic old hidebound empire like the last days of a Chinese dynasty and have the revolutionary Drakons blow through them like paper. He coulda set GF4 in an interesting post-revolutionary period instead of the safe and shitty path of putting Shapers right back on top and playing out a boring rag tag rebellion plot.

Somewhere in this time frame ~GF3/GF4 is where I postulate Vogel's give-a-fuck died.

 

[Azrael the cat]

Bumping this again because I wanna talk about Geneforge on da Codex

Geneforge 4 sucks. It has the same shitty basic Bioware/KotOR structure as Geneforge 3 with the "two path" choice and semi-linear chapter construction except this time I can't kid myself that it's just a Vogel experiment, where Geneforge 1 is his Fallout/Dark Sun:SL structured GF, Gene 2 is his all faction-based game, and GF3 is his shot at Bioware. GF4 is the one where he's like yep the Bioware structure is the correct one.

He also blew his chance to follow the logic of the first three games where the Shapers are a sclerotic old hidebound empire like the last days of a Chinese dynasty and have the revolutionary Drakons blow through them like paper. He coulda set GF4 in an interesting post-revolutionary period instead of the safe and shitty path of putting Shapers right back on top and playing out a boring rag tag rebellion plot.

Somewhere in this time frame ~GF3/GF4 is where I postulate Vogel's give-a-fuck died.

I actually really liked the G4/G5 transition where it starts appearing that maybe taking the hardline Shaper stance and killing all rebels wasn't so unreasonable an option given how fucked the world is by 5 (the Trakovites slowly growing from 'crazy cult' into 'fuck those guys actually have a point' being probably my favourite factional transition).

Depending on ending, the revolutionary Drakons might blow through the Shapers like paper. But as early as G2 it's obvious that both the Shapers and the Rebels are going to fracture - and that this is probably going to hit the rebels a lot harder than the shapers (the Shapers are only differing in terms of whether to grant the serviles more autonomy, treat them better but maintain absolute rule, or to go hardline - the Drayks are pretty open about annihilating fucking everyone if they could do so without needing the rebel alliance...and if 'Drayks have influence over the Drakkons' is a spoiler then you need to pay a lot more attention in G2/3...).

G5 is arguably the most factionally diverse in the series, if only in that you've got the interplay WITHIN each faction (different shades of moderates/hardliners amongst the Shapers, 'free serviles', servile+human alliance and drayk subfactions within the rebels). Plus the Trakovytes and other 'non-shaper/rebels win' endings.

Also keep in mind that G1-2 is just 1 island, 3 is the rebels getting established on the mainland. You aren't really playing for the 'full world' until 4 and 5.

 

[Pope Amole II]

Geneforge 4 sucks. It has the same shitty basic Bioware/KotOR structure as Geneforge 3 with the "two path" choice and semi-linear chapter construction

Edgy buzzwords. Sure, open-world structure of the first games was much superior to the segmented world structure of the latter ones, but, pray tell me, what's inherently wrong with the chapter construction (apart from Bioware using it)? Nothing. Sure, you may prefer one to another, but it's a matter of different design approaches and of taste - yeah, open world has all that exploration/free roaming stuff, but if you want to have decent combat in your game, chapter structure is vastly superior for that.

And the "two path" choice is much more complex than it seems - it's beauty is that, once you know what to do, you can easily serve as a double agent, reaping rewards from both factions. Any game that you can play yojimbo-style is a good game in my book. Not to mention that there's a stealth path available and where in hell have you seen bioware game with a full-pledged stealth path available?

He also blew his chance to follow the logic of the first three games where the Shapers are a sclerotic old hidebound empire

And that's your problem - actually, I don't think many people have seen this logic in the first three games, so that's mostly your personal expectations. And now you bash the game for failing to meet them.

 

[Gozma]

Geneforge 4 sucks. It has the same shitty basic Bioware/KotOR structure as Geneforge 3 with the "two path" choice and semi-linear chapter construction

Edgy buzzwords. Sure, open-world structure of the first games was much superior to the segmented world structure of the latter ones, but, pray tell me, what's inherently wrong with the chapter construction (apart from Bioware using it)? Nothing. Sure, you may prefer one to another, but it's a matter of different design approaches and of taste - yeah, open world has all that exploration/free roaming stuff, but if you want to have decent combat in your game, chapter structure is vastly superior for that.

He did it twice in a row. I just said it didn't even bother me in GF3 because I saw it as a progression of experiments. Then it is repeated almost the same way in 4, implying it was a destination. Haven't played 5, sounds like he changed some at that point. I'll revisit this thread when I do.

He also blew his chance to follow the logic of the first three games where the Shapers are a sclerotic old hidebound empire

And that's your problem - actually, I don't think many people have seen this logic in the first three games, so that's mostly your personal expectations. And now you bash the game for failing to meet them.

I formed the thought in GF1 mostly I guess, the idea of a monolithic ruling class that could shove a gigantic technological advance down the memory hole for centuries (the Sucia stuff) because it threatened the status quo makes your imagination go a bit. The Drakon technological edge they show with the giant endgame technodungeons around a geneforge and the "OH GOD THIS MAGIC MICROSCOPE, THE SCROLLS" at the end of all the games and the fact that they have done so much in a generation or two of existence just makes them look an order of magnitude in knowledge and power beyond Shapers, a multi-century old hierarchy with no known relevant competitors that is built for internal stability. The Drakons are kind of a stand-in for transhuman stuff with the "every Drakon makes a better Drakon" thing so they should either win with ease or burn out and die.

The "war on the mainland" was supposed to be going on all during GF3, it was plenty of time to have an offscreen fictional war.

 

[Nim]

I formed the thought in GF1 mostly I guess, the idea of a monolithic ruling class that could shove a gigantic technological advance down the memory hole for centuries (the Sucia stuff) because it threatened the status quo makes your imagination go a bit.

Threatening the status quo is a funny way to put it. They discontinued the research because it was fucking dangerous which you could already see in GF1 when talking to all those canister souped up Sholai if you were allied to the Takers. You also seem to be under the impression that it was some difficult feat to suppress the knowledge. It really wasn't what with Sucia being remote and there being a relatively small number of researchers. They weren't happy about the stuff being shutdown and while a few talked about rebellion nothing came of it, in the end they all were loyal and followed orders (source: some journal in GF1).

The Drakon technological edge they show with the giant endgame technodungeons around a geneforge and the "OH GOD THIS MAGIC MICROSCOPE, THE SCROLLS" at the end of all the games and the fact that they have done so much in a generation or two of existence just makes them look an order of magnitude in knowledge and power beyond Shapers, a multi-century old hierarchy with no known relevant competitors that is built for internal stability.

The Shapers had a crazy powerful geneforge and magic microscopes two-hundred years earlier in their giant endgame technodungeon, what drakon tech edge are you talking about ? And the drakons themselves certainly are not an order of magnitude stronger than the shapers, where does that idea come from ? They are just using every means at their disposal without regard for the consequences, something which the shapers are quite capable of but don't do (unless pushed to the max as in the rebel ending in GF4).

 

[Gozma]

beh

Has anyone ever written a patch or figured out how to manually fix the bug where in the first four Geneforge games all the items that give a bonus to the strength of creations don't actually work?

 

[Nim]

beh

Has anyone ever written a patch or figured out how to manually fix the bug where in the first four Geneforge games all the items that give a bonus to the strength of creations don't actually work?

Not that I know of. You could cheat yourself a bit more essence and put the points into the creations strength manually ?

 

[Gozma]

Is there any explanation for why Vogel decided to rebalance Geneforge 5 to give all enemies like 6 times the hitpoints used in other games in the series? In the older games about 2-3 hits from a Shaper's party would put a level-appropriate enemy down, now it takes like two full turns of the entire team whacking away at something to kill it. You have to squirt out Daze spells to mez enemies like an MMO so you can slowly chip one enemy to death at a time. There is a point in the game where you can repair some dormant 800+ HP golems to go fight a group of enemy 800+ HP golems, and if I didn't turn off the game in disgust to go complain on the Codex it would take like 5 minutes real time for one side to win.

 

[subotaiy]

Yeah, that's why I gave up on the 5th; is much easier to screw TB combat than real-time if you don't know how to design it.

 

[SCO]

I dunno, i never fought lol

 

[Gozma]

I think maybe it was that in the older games the "boss" encounters tended to make it really hard for you to hit, like you might have a 35% hitrate on some tough enemy. In G5 that pretty much never happens since he switched high enemy evasion to HP bloat. Fair enough I guess, makes the game slightly less about reloading until you get +1 sigma dice luck. But the bigass HP is on the shittiest map filler enemies, not just bosses.

 

[Nim]

Hit rate was not a problem in G4 though (and possibly G3) and those had no HP bloat. So no, the massive hit points in G5 are a conscious decision. It is also the first Geneforge where hit points scale with difficulty.

If you want to have some real fun try the big Perikalia Orchard battle (once you get permission to go south from Alwan it will trigger).

 

[Gozma]

^^ I handled said battle by running out the south exit on turn 2 or so instead of painstakingly playing that map for the 7 hours it would take to fight through even if I turned it down to casual difficulty.

 

[Grape_You_In_the_Mouth]

I just finished Geneforge 1, and the story and factions are so damned good that it's easily one of the best games ever made.

 

[Watser]

Finished Geneforge 3 here a month ago, gonna start G4 here soon. Looking forward to it, had a blast with specially #1-2!

 

[T. Reich]

Finished all five of them back-to-back two weeks ago, because I'm crazy just like that.

 

[railway]

I just finished Geneforge 5 after playing them all back to back. It's a good game series I really enjoyed playing. There are no huge flaws but not much areas where the games really shine either.

The biggest problem I had were technical issues with the first four games: Whenever text appeared on the screen the game would slow down to a crawl. On the Spiderweb forums I found a fix involving an application compatibility manager. This improved the issue for me but didn't remove it completely; after a seemingly random time the issue would surface again, forcing me to restart the game - sometimes already after playing for five minutes, other times I could play for an hour.
GF5 is made on a newer engine and worked fine out of the box.

Combat is turn-based and somewhat simplistic. A bit too simplistic for my taste, especially considering the sheer amount of combat in the games. If you throw so many trash mobs at me, make it interesting to fight them. At least combat is usually over fast that way; even more so as there's at least one spell or shaped creature that completely breaks the balance in each game (I don't mind but might want to play with house rules).
Combat isn't actually bad but it turned into a slog halfway into each GF.

Geneforge 1 is my favourite out of the series. The faction mechanics, probably the biggest strongpoint of the GF games, are especially well done here. You can join any faction and then double-cross them or stay loyal to the cause. Even staying neutral gives you options for different degrees of neutrality, ranging from "true neutral" over aligning towards a faction without actually joining to "kill them all".
I don't know any other game where it is done this well.

Another strongpoint is the game world. The lore is interesting and original take on the fantasy genre. The mash-up of science and shaper magic is nicely done, I think.
Having actual magic in addition to the pseudo-scientific shaping felt a bit out of place, though. But maybe that's just me. Backgrounds and mechanics of shaping are explored thoroughly and are the core of the plot, while "normal" magic is simply there, period. Magic would fit in better as a form of shaping, as another form of shaped weapons like the thorn guns for example (just using essence instead of ammunition). Again, maybe that's just me and it's nitpicking either way.

There were complaints about the writing around here but I thought it's good. It's not the best wrting ever and if you're looking for deep dialogue trees and extensive C&C than you have to look elsewhere; it's serviceable.

GF1's plot is presented in a very open way similiar to Fallout, as in you get a task (escape the island and investigate its secrets) and it's up to you how to do this. With the "instanced open world" almost every location is available to the player at the start (as long as you get past the monsters); the majority of content could be skipped if you're so inclined. Usually there are at least two ways to reach an area, one involving fighting (alternatively a speech check sometimes), the other involving sneaking & disarming traps.
Exploring the island and slowly unravelling its secrets, in combination with the fluid faction mechanics, is what made GF1 so fun for me.

Someone described Geneforge 2 as "practically a remake of GF1" to me once and it's not completely wrong. The plot is very similiar at least. One of the biggest differences is the presence of actual human/shaper villages resulting in more varied interactions. I actually enjoined the isolated setting of GF1 more but your mileage may vary.
The focus on exploring and investigating the colony's secrets is again well done but there's not much new to learn if you played the first game.

Geneforge 3 is my least favourite. You start hopping from one small island to the next until the gameworld opens a bit more towards the end, making it more linear than other GF games. Travelling back and forth between islands is a pain in the ass as well.
The faction options are severly limited compared to other GF games, basically rendered to a binary choice. This is somewhat justified by the plot though.

Spoiler

GF3 marks the beginning of a war that's the driving force of the next two games. In the real world, too, it's not uncommon for ideological differences to blur in times of conflict. The blocs' unity breaking apart again after the frontlines are settled and the rebels consolidated their territory in GF4+5 was implemented well, I think.

This is the only GF where you can get actual companions to follow you around but I can't say much about that. I didn't need them and didn't know they weren't just your typical NPC mercenaries until I met them again in GF4+5.

Geneforge 4+5 give you a whole continent to explore and with the war raging on they are considerably more epic than their predecessors.
The factions choices open again and, while not as fluid as they were in GF1+2, they are one of the strongpoints in the games.

Geneforge 5 starts with an amnesia plot as its driving force but it gets dropped midway through in a strange anti-climatic way.

Spoiler

"Hey fortuneteller, who am I?"
"Is that really important?"
"Hm, I guess not...."
"'k. That's $10. Bye."
"..."

It's still a good and satisfying finale to the series overall, even though some of the possible endings are more believable than others.

Spoiler

F.ex. the Drakons deciding to voluntarily stop shaping themselves in one of the moderate shaper endings is a bit hard to believe, I think.

One thing that would have been great is an option to import savegames from earlier games to get more continuity when a playthrough differs from the official canon (the beginning of the 4th game was pretty much the opposite of how the 3rd ended for me). But that would certainly be way out of scale for an already ambitious indie RPG made by one man.
With every game being mostly self-contained (GF4+5 a bit less so) it's not that important anyway.

 

[Monstrous Bat]

Just finished G2, so I'll post my impressions here to prove to Metro mediocrepoet that I did in fact play the game.

I've finished G1 some years ago with a fire shaper, so I figured I'd go with an agent this time. Put a point in battle shaping very early on and made a pair of thahds, whom I kept alive the entire game. Never regretted the investment. They hit almost as hard as myself until I got the shaped blade, and even in the late game they could dish out some serious damage when they manage to hit (they have around 45% accuracy against the T4 creations). The game practically rains essence pods on you, so about 100 maximum essence should be enough for spells.

The early-midgame was actually pretty damned hard - way harder than I remembered G1 was. I actually turned the difficulty down to tricky at some point because I was tired of getting one-shotted by those fucking 12AP clawbugs (I finished G1 on torment). I actually had so much trouble in the midgame that I started to seriously considering joining the Barzahlites, but on my way to Rising I ran into some agent in Loyalist Camping who taught me Strong Daze and Mass Energize, which solved all my problems and bascially trivialized the rest of the game. Speaking of which, mental magic (esp. Terror and Strong Daze) is absurdly overpowered in this one, and I found myself abusing the fuck out of these spells in the endgame (and to be honest, I can't imagine how could I have dealt with multiple rotdhizons without them).

Remained unaltered and unaligned till the very end and got the True Shaper™ ending for my trouble. Gotta say, though, I'm starting to get tired of babysitting the lazy, arrogant bums in the Shaper Council. I'll probably go with some rebel faction in G3.

I've heard horror stories about HP-bloated trash mobs in G5. Well, I certainly hope these stories are mere hyperbole, because for all I know G2 has enough HP-bloated trash mobs already. Inner Gazak-Uss was hell, not just because the monsters there are tough but also because it takes forever to kill even one of them. In the end I just killed the three leaders and bailed. Also, "augmented" Easss was way too wimpy. Could have at least given him 12AP per round. Actually, drakons in general are very underwhelming in G2. Rotghroths and gazers gave me much more trouble than drakons ever did.

G2 added a lot of new spells, which is good. What isn't so good is that many of the new spells are rather banal and/or poorly balanced. The idea of recruitable companions sounded interesting on paper, but in practice I never kept any of them around for more than 5 minutes (no direct control over my minions? fuck off). The UI also got some much-needed tweaks (the one in G1 was terrible).

The artwork declined horribly from G1 though. I mean, in G1 we had this:

And in G2 we have this:

Which is better and why?? Discuss!!

Fortunately, the story and writing are still quite solid. I don't know why Codexians keep shitting on Vogel's writing, the two Geneforges I've played so far had top-notch writing by CRPG standards. G2's story felt a bit less "epic" than G1's, but I liked how there's more (pseudo-)science shit. Vogel apparently wanted to antagonize the Shapers more though, going as far as retconning the Obeyer ending in G1. Though to be fair, the Awakened and especially the Takers were also somewhat antagonized in G2. Actually, I found G2 to be darker than G1 in general.

My favorite moment in G2:

Spoiler

Hearing the Awakened babbling about how kind Tuldaric is, then meeting him in person and find out that all the self-shaping has turned him into an arrogant, apathetic man not unlike the Barzahlites.

Though this is not my first Geneforge, the setting still haven't lost its magic on me. Maybe it's because I'd forgotten much of G1 or maybe the lore is just that awesome. The factions are very interesting too, with the exception of the Barzahlites, who are bascially your typical amoral power-hungry villains. Rather dull compared to the other factions.

I have heard many people claiming that G2 is the best game in the series. Though I don't necessarily agree with them, I can see their point. Geneforge 2 was a game that far exceeded my expectations. I did not think Jeff Vogel would be able to create a sequel to G1 that matched, much less surpassed, the greatness of its predecessor. I was proven wrong. Bravo, Jeff Vogel. Bravo.

 

[Dayyālu]

Fortunately, the story and writing are still quite solid. I don't know why Codexians keep shitting on Vogel's writing, the two Geneforges I've played so far had top-notch writing by CRPG standards. G2's story felt a bit less "epic" than G1's, but I liked how there's more (pseudo-)science shit. Vogel apparently wanted to antagonize the Shapers more though, going as far as retconning the Obeyer ending in G1. Though to be fair, the Awakened and especially the Takers were also somewhat antagonized in G2. Actually, I found G2 to be darker than G1 in general.

I have heard many people claiming that G2 is the best game in the series. Though I don't necessarily agree with them, I can see their point. Geneforge 2 was a game that far exceeded my expectations. I did not think Jeff Vogel would be able to create a sequel to G1 that matched, much less surpassed, the greatness of its predecessor. I was proven wrong. Bravo, Jeff Vogel. Bravo.

I agree with pretty much everything. I consider GF 2 one of the best in the series mainly because the incredible amount of choice you have in factions - we're up to 5 or 6, right? Counting also the Shaper Loyalists. I do not dislike Vogel's writing, but GF is his peak, and he has failed to evolve since then. A pity and a waste. I am somewhat disgruntled with Vogel, as he has proven to be capable of writing decent stuff, and thanks to his low bar for assets he could have tried something even more complex instead of aping Bioware and finding a cheap way to gain money in Steam. Lowest common denominator and all. And of course, flaming the 'dex with curious blog posts was ... of poor taste. I understand he's old and "he has to defend and sell his work", but remakes after remakes after remakes.... what a waste. Maybe he will remake GF with romance options for Vlishes, who knows.

About art, you took a bad example, admit it.

GF 2 art is serviceable, and better than the CG abomination of GF 5 in any case. GF3 has some nice ideas, some cool characters but the island structure is kind of a chore.

 

[Awor Szurkrarz]

About art, you took a bad example, admit it.

GF 2 art is serviceable, and better than the CG abomination of GF 5 in any case. GF3 has some nice ideas, some cool characters but the island structure is kind of a chore.

Speaking of art, I really despised his character arts in Avernum with these slutty female characters. What the fuck, it's not a hentai game? Fucking tease.

 

[Gozma]

G5 on whatever the highest difficulty is will teach you that there is more HP bloat in heaven and earth than is dreamed of by your philosophy

 

[Dayyālu]

Speaking of art, I really despised his character arts in Avernum with these slutty female characters. What the fuck, it's not a hentai game? Fucking tease.

..........what?...... for....for...example?

I find this ... outlandish. Character art is stock fantasy. Static screens in the remake are kinda nice, the stuff you can buy from competent illustrators in our age.

If you mean the art of Phil Foglio that he used in the first remakes and also in the last one for stats and abilites.... what?!. Phil Foglio did "erotica", but his style is terrible, in my opinion. Vogel appreciated Katawa Shoujo ( http://jeff-vogel.blogspot.co.at/2013/12/katawa-shoujo-sex-stuff-in-games-and.html ) though. Write him a mail and expose your predicament, I bet he will be more than willing to write creepy sex scenes for his audience. Pecunia non olet is his philosophy, after all.

 

[Awor Szurkrarz]

Speaking of art, I really despised his character arts in Avernum with these slutty female characters. What the fuck, it's not a hentai game? Fucking tease.

..........what?...... for....for...example?

I find this ... outlandish. Character art is stock fantasy. Static screens in the remake are kinda nice, the stuff you can buy from competent illustrators in our age.

I'm talking about the original Avernum. Maybe the new one is less obscene.