My reviews of Fallout and Eschalon Book I

[belowmecoldhands]

These're not professional reviews by any means. They're just impressions I got after completing the games. They're on GoG, so if this is not allowable, please let me know and I'll go about this differently. For now, I'll use direct links to them.

Eschalon Book I:
http://af.gog.com/forum/eschalon_series/just_finished_eb1_my_conclusions_inside?as=1649904300

Fallout:
http://af.gog.com/forum/fallout_series/fallout_1_finished_my_impressions/page1?as=1649904300

So my interest was in seeing who agrees and what they disagree about. Since these reviews do a lot of the work of expressing my opinions, I'd rather let them talk for me right now before I start taking a dive.

To please those who think I should say something before launching into this thread, I'll try to appease you. Firstly, my reviews of both are mixed, but somewhat positive. There were many negatives associated with the games, but if I had to say which game faired worse, I'd say Fallout. Many will disagree. I should say Fallout 2 improved on many of the negatives I saw in Fallout, which were principally: more content, better hireling system. Yet since I have not played Fallout 2, I cannot be sure. Despite this, I still enjoyed parts of Fallout, some of which are probably unique to me.

I'd also like to add I want to explore the topic of how far RPG's should go with mechanics which produce surprising or unpredictable negative results. For example, if you enter a dungeon and are immediately assaulted by a powerful creature with only moments to decide what to do, how many moments are enough? What of traps? Should there be traps in a dungeon that'll nearly kill you or cause great harm or disease? Should they be easily visible, partially visible, or completely invisible? And there're a myriad of other negative mechanics I've encountered in varying games, with a range of unpredictability.

 

[valcik]

So, Fallout has disappointed you because you've died often when you've decided to ignore the main quest and went into grinding instead, am I right? That suck, dude. Have you tried making own character, or did you try the pre-made ones? Also, you don't need to be killing machine dressed in power armor to finish the game. I think it's much easier to infiltrate the Cathedral in disguise, dressed in purple robe; this way you could avoid all the fighting against supermutants.

Don't give up on this one and try again after the pain would fade away.

 

[ironyuri]

belowmecoldhands is beneath our cold fists. consign this manboon to retardo. torment him in the eternal fires of despair.

 

[MicoSelva]

The game designers for this didn't plan well for someone like me.

Of all the subjective statements from you review, this one is the most accurate, I think.

 

[jcd]

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[FeelTheRads]

'sup drog.

 

[Slow James]

The game was intended to make you feel like you were barely trying to survive in a desert world gone to hell. Grinding is not a good idea - it wastes resources. Avoiding combat and learning to fear fighting... that's exactly the feel the devs were going for.

I understand if that's not your cup of tea, but it wasn't a mistake or an oversight, but rather a conscious effort. Just like Dark Souls was designed to put your nutsack in a blender dealing with constant death and failure - it's not accidental.

 

[Grimwulf]

So, Fallout has disappointed you because you've died often when you've decided to ignore the main quest and went into grinding instead, am I right? That suck, dude. Have you tried making own character, or did you try the pre-made ones? Also, you don't need to be killing machine dressed in power armor to finish the game. I think it's much easier to infiltrate the Cathedral in disguise, dressed in purple robe; this way you could avoid all the fighting against supermutants.

Don't give up on this one and try again after the pain would fade away.

Good God, your avatar! What game is it from? A fucking VIKING creeping on me from ventilation shaft? This is EXACTLY what I wanted to see in Metal Gear Solid 1.

Fallout:
http://af.gog.com/forum/fallout_series/fallout_1_finished_my_impressions/page1?as=1649904300

As I understand, you liked S.P.E.C.I.A.L. system, but didn't like the rest of Fallout 1. If I were you, I would skip Fallout 2 then. Fallout: Tactics should suit you just fine: pure charbuilds, squad tactics with direct team control, and fancy graphics as a bonus.

 

[belowmecoldhands]

So, Fallout has disappointed you because you've died often when you've decided to ignore the main quest and went into grinding instead, am I right? That suck, dude. Have you tried making own character, or did you try the pre-made ones? Also, you don't need to be killing machine dressed in power armor to finish the game. I think it's much easier to infiltrate the Cathedral in disguise, dressed in purple robe; this way you could avoid all the fighting against supermutants.

Don't give up on this one and try again after the pain would fade away.

Good God, your avatar! What game is it from? A fucking VIKING creeping on me from ventilation shaft? This is EXACTLY what I wanted to see in Metal Gear Solid 1.

Fallout:
http://af.gog.com/forum/fallout_series/fallout_1_finished_my_impressions/page1?as=1649904300

As I understand, you liked S.P.E.C.I.A.L. system, but didn't like the rest of Fallout 1. If I were you, I would skip Fallout 2 then. Fallout: Tactics should suit you just fine: pure charbuilds, squad tactics with direct team control, and fancy graphics as a bonus.

That guy is wrong. I never stopped the main quest. What happened is I was kicked out of hte Brotherhood of Steel because I asked about rumors twice. That means I didn't get Power Armor. I had ot make do with the Tesla Armor and Combat armor. I played through it. Because I was getting killed so frequently by critical hits from the Mutants, I wanted to gain more levels. At that point in time, I had done most of the content I could find, so I just did repeatable caravan missions and random encounters in the wilderness. Later on, around lvl 14, somehow I gained access to Brother of Steel again. I then got the Power Armor. Despite gaining level 15 and having the Power Armor, I still died a lot to critcals anyway.

I liked Fallout 1 (aside from some annoyances I mentioned) up until I felt like I had to grind repeatables to survive the criticals. Yet grinding some levels didn't stop the criticals, so I guess my real problem was the criticals. I don't like that style of gameplay where you die randomly. Even kiting didn't stop it completely.

 

[Grimwulf]

That guy is wrong. I never stopped the main quest.

Whaddya mean "That guy"? Err, I actually read your review, not just random user comment. And you know, statements like

In the last game I played, Eschalon Book I, I think I died 4 or 5 times completing it. In this game it was more than 3 times that. Yes, it got very frustrating.

However, there was just not enough content to enjoy it. I ended up getting most of my experience by roaming around in the wilderness to invoke the random encounters. It was slow and repetitive.

Here're a few other flaws I did not like:
* The inventory system was clunky and cumbersome
* The text display was similarly clunky and slow to use
* HIrelings not much use because they're too dumb and uncontrollable
* Skills/items which are almost useless
* Not enough exit points leading to the overhead map - leads to repetitive travel

The underlying flaw with this game is a flaw common to most of the classic games. They almost all encourage you to save scum

And also:

One more thing... In terms of tactics, I'd say Jagged Alliance 2 is a far better game.

I didn't mention it, but I liked the large number of perks you can get. Made building a character interesting.

made me suggest playing Fallout: Tactics in Iron Man and aviod Fallout 2.

As for Fallout 1, it is historical icon. A game to worship, a revolution in the whole genre. I find it hard to critisize it, really. Not because I think it's perfect, which I don't, but because of major impact it had on the gaming industry. It's just... Fallout 1. You know?

 

[belowmecoldhands]

So, Fallout has disappointed you because you've died often when you've decided to ignore the main quest and went into grinding instead, am I right? That suck, dude. Have you tried making own character, or did you try the pre-made ones? Also, you don't need to be killing machine dressed in power armor to finish the game. I think it's much easier to infiltrate the Cathedral in disguise, dressed in purple robe; this way you could avoid all the fighting against supermutants.

Don't give up on this one and try again after the pain would fade away.

I finished Fallout (bolded text). I also did try using hte robes for a while. At some point one of htem identified me, so it was guns. Keep in mind my character was a prebuilt. My speech was low-ish. I don't think he was the most charming or intelligent guy.

I guess it just boils down to a few things:
1) I hated hte inventory system
2) I hated the fatal random (unpredictable) criticals from the super mutants
(I did try to kite them and trained kiting traits and switched armors, but all it did is slightly reduce them.)
3) I hated the great mantis swarms in the caravan mission
4) I hated the hireling system
5) I hated the lack of preparation for The Glow - no prior missions to introduce how radiation works

Lots of players complain about how you can mess up your faction or lose access to quests if you make a "mistake" when you're talking or kill the wrong person or so on. While I don't necessarily like it, depending on if it feels artificial to me, I will play through those things anyway.

I do state in my impression about Eschalon Book I that open world games will always have these problems of hte player suffering a mishap as a result of missing knowledge. Games with rails, by contrast, don't allow players to go off the main road or to plunge off cliffs. The only way to eliminate players ever suffering mishaps is not to allow them to make serious mistakes or to just reduce consequences until they're trivial.

But I liked most of the rest of the game. I know I'm not going to be liked for saying these things. What bugs me is I consider myself a very hardcore player. I love JA2 and that game has a few places where you'll randomly die. I've played merciless games and enjoyed it. Yet I find as I grow older I hate the random uncontrollabe deaths more than I did when I was younger. It's not a harsh environment I'm against, it's just when the harshness becomes too unpredictable or occurs too soon. I like games where you they prepare you somewhat for future challenges. Shouldn't be easy though.

 

[belowmecoldhands]

(...)
made me suggest playing Fallout: Tactics in Iron Man and aviod Fallout 2.

As for Fallout 1, it is historical icon. A game to worship, a revolution in the whole genre. I find it hard to critisize it, really. Not because I think it's perfect, which I don't, but because of major impact it had on the gaming industry. It's just... Fallout 1. You know?

Calm down. I thought that was a copy/paste from GoG. Didn't notice it was from this thread.

I downloaded Fallout 2 for free on GoG and there's no way I'll never play it. There were things I liked about Fallout. I think the extra content helps a lot for times when you don't know what to do and just need some experience to get around something. The better hireling system (and more of them) is another plus. There're other things Fallout 2 might not have improved on, but there's no such thing as a perfect game.

I also don't have Fallout: Tactics. I'd much rather get a game like Hammer and Sickle than Fallout: Tactics.

Point is I got Fallout 2 for free and I'll eventually get around to playing it. Also keep in mind I tend to like combat-heavy games more and the first two fallouts invovle some chatting. I can handle some chatting, but too much pushes me away. This may affect my satisfaction. Planescape: Torment is lauded as the most polished well made RPG ever, but I could not play it because of all the dialogues. The game felt ... restrictive. Hard to explain. Maybe you're right and tactical/strategical combat games are more up my alleyway. Yet I like to try different games too, even ones wiht dialogue.

I'll also add I was prepared to eventually buy Fallout 1 and Fallout 2. They were on my list of must buy. Problem is this list is big and I can't play everything in the short life I have, you know? I have to pick and choose.

 

[Whiran]

I do state in my impression about Eschalon Book I that open world games will always have these problems of hte player suffering a mishap as a result of missing knowledge. Games with rails, by contrast, don't allow players to go off the main road or to plunge off cliffs. The only way to eliminate players ever suffering mishaps is not to allow them to make serious mistakes or to just reduce consequences until they're trivial.

Why do you keep writing about Eschalon Book I in your review of Fallout? You wrote about Eschalon Book I five times in your review. As a comparison you wrote a total of 8 formed paragraphs. You should have mentioned Eschalon Book I three more times - once per paragraph.

How is that even relevant? I'll give you a hint for my view on this answer: it is NOT. The one game has nothing to do with the other although I am happy for you that you played Eschalon Book I. Well done.

That'd be like me doing a review of Wasteland 2 and then writing about Eye of the Beholder.

As to your review itself - I came away with the impression that you didn't like Fallout because you died a lot and couldn't figure out how not to die. As an aside, you did give Fallout an arbitrary value of 6.75 (averaging out your two scores) but you didn't present what your scale even means. Is it out of 10? 100? 13? What would be needed to get a top score? What is needed to get a bottom score? Why did you even assign an arbitrary value that doesn't appear to match with what you wrote in the body of your review? I don't get it.

Your review reads more of a self-congratulatory pat on the back for having played Fallout and Eschalon I as opposed to an actual review.

 

[belowmecoldhands]

Whiran, I used Eschalon Book I as a measuring stick to compare my enjoyment I had with it to Fallout. I also compared them because they're both RPGs and I played them almost back to back. It was helpful to compare the experiences because I like to think about how games are made.

Ignore the scoring mostly. It was definitely arbitrary.

My real intent with this thread is to discuss exactly what you quoted there. The Fallout and Eschalon Book I games are just a way that I got to thinking about it. I also played Anachronox. The more I play games, the more I think about this isue.

I also wrote a review of Anachronox here:
http://af.gog.com/forum/anachronox/my_review_of_this_game?as=1649904300

 

[almondblight]

My guess is you burned yourself out trying to grind in Fallout. Grinding in Fallout sucks and (as you pointed out) is unnecessary.

Random crits suck in Fallout, but you shouldn't be running into them too often. Mostly with mutants. If you want to avoid them around the military base, up your outdoorsman. Inside I wouldn't try taking on every group of super mutants with your SMG. Most can be avoided if you're not prepared to take them out quickly (or prepared to reload because of what you're walking into).

You get warned about radiation in the glow, and by that point should have encountered anti-rad meds a number of times. You also have enough time to run and get more pills if you really need them (and there are pills there as well, IIRC).

I think you got the thrown out of the brotherhood stuff mixed up. If I recall correctly, the only way you get thrown out is if you break into Rhombus' room, get caught by him, and then break in again and get caught by him again. Asking about war rumors should get you the mission to scout the military base.

Fallout skills and perks are pretty unbalanced, and it sounds like you had a weaker set up and then died a number of times trying to rambo the game.

 

[Tigranes]

Why did dying 16 times throughout the entire game frustrate you? I probably died at least 5 times that in my first playthrough. I think I die more than that in just about any RPG I play, though that's usually on harder difficulties.

I mean, nobody bats an eyelid when you die 160 times in Mario, right? It's part of the game, its' part of the fun to die hialriously, fuck up, overcome challenges.

You don't have to grind to beat F1, but sometimes you might feel you need to do a couple of caravan missions to get some loot and get up to speed, which is realistic enough. As for inventory and exit zones - yeah, they suck.

 

[valcik]

Random crits suck in Fallout, but you shouldn't be running into them too often.

Characters with STR 6 + END 6 dressed in power armor could survive rocket launcher crit without any troubles at levels 14 and above, anyway. The burst weapons at point-blank range are most dangerous, because chance for critical hit is multiplied by number of shots in burst. The supermutant lieutenant is quite deadly indeed!

 

[Awor Szurkrarz]

Fallout's combat system is a result of losing GURPS license and having to design a new system in literally TWO WEEKS.

If Fallout wouldn't have lost GURPS there would be nice stuff like aiming for brain, vitals and eyes and having GUARANTEED damage multipliers, which DRASTICALLY decreases the CRAZY randomness.

As for Fallout 1, it is historical icon. A game to worship, a revolution in the whole genre. I find it hard to critisize it, really. Not because I think it's perfect, which I don't, but because of major impact it had on the gaming industry. It's just... Fallout 1. You know?

 

[Ninjerk]

Why did dying 16 times throughout the entire game frustrate you? I probably died at least 5 times that in my first playthrough. I think I die more than that in just about any RPG I play, though that's usually on harder difficulties.

I mean, nobody bats an eyelid when you die 160 times in Mario, right? It's part of the game, its' part of the fun to die hialriously, fuck up, overcome challenges.

You don't have to grind to beat F1, but sometimes you might feel you need to do a couple of caravan missions to get some loot and get up to speed, which is realistic enough. As for inventory and exit zones - yeah, they suck.

16 times seems low if you try to keep burst SMG Ian with you.

 

[Mastermind]

The game was intended to make you feel like you were barely trying to survive in a desert world gone to hell. Grinding is not a good idea - it wastes resources. Avoiding combat and learning to fear fighting... that's exactly the feel the devs were going for.

Or you could grab some anti-rad medicine/rope and loot the glow (no need to go into heavy combat area) then pew pew your way through the rest of the piss easy game.

 

[laclongquan]

How the hell can you play a game with Ian on SMG? Only a masochist do so.

 

[I'm Big Into Anal]

I downloaded Fallout 2 for free on GoG and there's no way I'll never play it.....

a few lines later...

Point is I got Fallout 2 for free and I'll eventually get around to playing it.

 

[I'm Big Into Anal]

btw im playing fallout 2 right now

it rules

 

[jagged-jimmy]

As for Fallout 1, it is historical icon. A game to worship, a revolution in the whole genre. I find it hard to critisize it, really. Not because I think it's perfect, which I don't, but because of major impact it had on the gaming industry. It's just... Fallout 1. You know?

But this is true. Not sure how you could like RPGs but don't get into Fallout or dislike it.

Behead those who insult Fallout

 

[Awor Szurkrarz]

As for Fallout 1, it is historical icon. A game to worship, a revolution in the whole genre. I find it hard to critisize it, really. Not because I think it's perfect, which I don't, but because of major impact it had on the gaming industry. It's just... Fallout 1. You know?

But this is true. Not sure how you could like RPGs but don't get into Fallout or dislike it.

Behead those who insult Fallout

That's why we can't have good things.