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New Shadow Warrior from Hard Reset devs - out now

chestburster

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So from the comments here I take it that necrovision is a good game ? Or should I keep playing Doom wads and forget about it ?

So from the comments here I take it that necrovision is a good game ? Or should I keep playing Doom wads and forget about it ?
Personally never found Necrovision likeable, starting with the arsenal and finishing with art style/graphics (hint: you use brown thingies to shoot at brown thingies that move around brown surroundings. I get it, it's WW1 WITH DEMONS but come on).

It all comes down to personal taste. I LOVE the arsenal (the crazy WWI stuff) and the art style (demons in WWI ! I always imagine there were unspeakable things lurking in those trenches).

And you get to ride a dragon and drive a WWI mech.
 

Darth Roxor

Royal Dongsmith
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Just a shame that the dragon-riding level dragged like shit and was actually one of the game's lower points :M

Mecha suit was majestic, however.
 

Heresiarch

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The worst thing of Necrovision for me was how the final boss fight sucks (mechanism related spoiler):

The iconic weapon of the game, the demon hand, is completely useless in the final boss battle, because only ranged attacks are effective against the boss, but your demon hand's ranged attack is extremely limited in ammo and effectiveness. So the final battle comes down onto running around firing your hi-tech uzi, and round after round of WWI RPG to whittle down the boss while your best weapon & friend in the game, the demon hand, is useless the whole time.
 

chestburster

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The worst thing of Necrovision for me was how the final boss fight sucks (mechanism related spoiler):

The iconic weapon of the game, the demon hand, is completely useless in the final boss battle, because only ranged attacks are effective against the boss, but your demon hand's ranged attack is extremely limited in ammo and effectiveness. So the final battle comes down onto running around firing your hi-tech uzi, and round after round of WWI RPG to whittle down the boss while your best weapon & friend in the game, the demon hand, is useless the whole time.


The same thing happened with Shadow Warrior 2013. Your sword is useless against the giant bosses. In fact, most of your arsenal are useless against the bosses. The only viable weapons are the bow and the rocket launcher.
 

ZagorTeNej

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Dec 10, 2012
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If I had to point to one thing that was deeply wrong with SW2, it would be the secrets. In the earlier Build engine games, finding a secret required a certain amount of lateral thinking, ingenious jumping, creative use of pyrotechnics or just dumb luck. Finding a secret here felt rewarding. In SW2, finding a secret involves such complicated feats as "looking up", "looking in the corner of a room" or most fiendishly "heading left when the corridor-like level design had intended you to head right." Finding these secrets gives you no sense of accomplishment at all, which should be what secrets are all about. Granted, I only find like half the secrets in each level, so some of them could be better hidden, but most of them by far are just insulting.

Not to mention that there's a secret behind like every waterfall in the game (though they stop appearing in the 2nd half of the game due to a change in scenery).

Still some of them are hidden better, also due it being a modern game (with modern graphics) there's so much shit on the screen at all time so it's hard to differentiate between clutter and useful stuff sometimes (even though it glows periodically), you had a much clearer view in Build engine games.
 

DefJam101

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oh hey I forgot all about this game

I haven't finished it yet; I lost interest around chapter 7/8. Haven't even found the rocket launcher yet. Overall it's not as bad as I thought it would be but it's not very good, either. It's a much more functional game than the new Rise of the Triad but unlike that game it's not even trying to be a remake, so eh.

I dunno here's some thoughts and shit. I cba to write paragraphs:

- Movement is slow but unlike other shooters with slow movement this one doesn't annoy the shit out of me, perhaps because the player character has at least some inertia and also because you can dash everywhere like you're playing Unreal.

- Holding shift to sprint is completely useless. This is a very good thing.

- Swordplay feels solid but is trivially easy.

- The starting weapons are all almost completely overshadowed by the sword until you upgrade them. Starting around chapter seven you need to start using guns but before that you can probably manage fine using nothing but the sword.

- Even post-chapter seven the guns are only needed during big battles. This is yet another shooter (Serious Sam, Painkiller, Hard Reset...) where you're never, ever, in any danger outside the parts of the game where you're locked in a big room full of dudes.

- Boring level design consisting primarily of wide corridors and big, flat rooms.

- There is technically key hunting but it's not used in an interesting way.

- Secrets are more inventive than in Hard Reset, but still almost never rely on exploring actual map geometry. Every single rooftop and ledge I tried to climb, for instance, was blocked by an invisible wall.

- What little I heard of the writing — I skipped almost all the cutscenes — was terrible and unfunny. The best lines in the game are actually the ones where Lo Wang sounds sort of like a normal human being saying normal human being shit. ("Dude, you made armor for the demon invasion. Shut the fuck up.") I wish his whole personality was normal. It wouldn't be funny, but it'd be more likable than his actual personality, which feels like that Asian dude from The Hangover pretending to be Duke Nukem.

- You can skip all the cutscenes and be perfectly fine.

- Acceptable enemy design, but too few enemy types. The game doesn't understand that simply fighting MORE MORE MORE of the same four bad guys is boring.

- The "greater demons" are all giant HP sponges. Imagine Doom, but everything bigger than an imp is a baron. That's this.

- The game looks good, but not as good as Hard Reset. Rather than design enemies with distinctive silhouettes and color schemes the developers literally highlight monsters in red, which looks pretty dumb. On the plus side, it's always clear what's happening on the screen, even when things get hectic (though there is an annoying post-process effect that mutes all colors when your health drops below 25).

- The levels are visually uninteresting.

- Excellent sound design overall, with the notable exception of...

- ...the guns, which mostly sound like crap.

- Soundtrack is completely forgettable.


So yeah. Mixed feelings. Definitely not worth thirty bucks. There is an unlockable "EX Mode" which I suspect disables Lo Wang's overpowered magic abilities (and perhaps nerfs the sword?), but I've slogged through eight levels now and the game simply refuses to pick up the pace.
 
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DefJam101

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I'm really mad that Necrovision wasn't the best game ever.

I mean, I liked it, but fuck. WW1 with vampires. WW1 with fucking vampires.

A game with this premise should logically be the greatest game ever made. If it's not, you fucked up.
 

DalekFlay

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There are good secrets hidden well and requiring some crazy jumps. There are also boring secrets behind a hidden turn or barrel or something. This is no different from older games, which also had lame and interesting secrets both.
 

baturinsky

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There are good secrets hidden well and requiring some crazy jumps. There are also boring secrets behind a hidden turn or barrel or something. This is no different from older games, which also had lame and interesting secrets both.
Slow movement, invisible walls and instakills when you jump down where you are not supposed to (even if it is just three or so meters) discourage exploration.
 

DalekFlay

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Slow movement, invisible walls and instakills when you jump down where you are not supposed to (even if it is just three or so meters) discourage exploration.

And in the original Shadow Warrior I was annoyed I couldn't drive the cars or enter all the buildings. Must be a shitty game.

Do you move as fast as in the original Shadow Warrior? No, but you move pretty fucking fast. Does it have more invisible walls than the original Shadow Warrior? Maybe, if you don't count unusable doors as such, and discount the fact invisible walls weren't necessary with the original's level of graphical fidelity. Is it annoying deep water kills you? Sure, but no game has everything.

I could rip Deus Ex, Fallout and Morrowind apart for their flaws if I wanted to, and they're my three favorite games.
 

DalekFlay

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I'll be the last person to hate on Doom 3, but bullshit needs to be called out where it's due. The moment you start Knee-deep in the Dead you run through spacey rooms with shooty zombie guys that take a few pistol hits/1 shotgun blast to take down, then proceed through a track surrounded by acid while dodging pimp fireballs, and that's only the first level, later on you come across larger groups of larger stuff, often mixed. Meanwhile, Doom 3 serves you corridors with slow melee zombies that you whack with a flashlight, then it serves you singular imps that just teleport somewhere around you, after which you start meeting meaty zombie security dudes that hide behind crates and shoot you with SMGs/shotguns and you barely ever face more than 2-3 dudes at a time. How is that in any way similar.

Yay an actual argument.

"A lot like" does not mean exactly like. You hit the main differences: larger rooms, more intense music, more shots to kill. Dodging fireballs is bullshit, you dodge fireballs all god damn day in Doom 3. Later levels having more enemies mixed and at greater frequency? Doom 3 did that too, the hell levels and beyond were more hectic.

Doom 3 cannot match pace with any of the later episodes or Doom 2, but Knee Deep in the Dead starts much slower, has dark areas with monster closets, has large empty spaces of just building tension, etc. It's a lot more similar to Doom 3 than people realize, is all I am saying. Should it have been more shooty-mcshooterson? Sure, probably. I'm not really into horror. When I replay Doom though the first episode reminds me a lot of Doom 3.

But here we are, SW2013 and me, and neither of us are having any fun. That's just how the story goes.

You mean entertainment is subjective? Crazy!
 

UserNamer

Cipher
Joined
Nov 6, 2010
Messages
692
-did you play knee deep in the dead on "I'm too young to die"? It's the only explanation I can find for your posts.

-DefJam, nice list.

-Quake 1 was cool as a single player game, why some of you are comparing it to doom 3? Also I think doom 64 was nice too, nothing compared to d3
 

DalekFlay

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-did you play knee deep in the dead on "I'm too young to die"? It's the only explanation I can find for your posts.

Adding more enemies changes nothing about the comparisons I made. Doom 3 has a ton of enemy spam later in the game as well. The comparison is in tone, darkness, monster closets, etc. They're not the same fucking game, never said they were, I said the original episode and Doom 3 are more alike than people realize, period.
 
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- Katana is ridiculous beyond belief. At the beginning things are fine. Then you get life leach, +50% damage, area attacks galore. Literally the only way to die is: 1. Hit an exploding object (just about everything explodes, I think the only thing that doesn't are the bicycles), 2. Fall off the map.

- Guns are pathetic. Again, at the beginning things feel alright and balanced. Then the game decides that you need to fight 10x as many enemies in a battle and any hope of shooting them down is gone. Even if you were patient enough to do so, you'd simply not have the ammo to do it. The upgrades are a joke and do jack shit, except in the case of the crossbow that can charge up for 4x damage (which is still useless for all but boss enemies). They sound weak too. You'll have a hard time just hearing them, which is ridiculous.

- Powers are kind of lame. You have a heal (Did we really need another way to heal ourselves? And with no drawback?), 2 stuns (1 long range that takes forever to cast, one short range which is fast to cast), and a damage reduction spell (lol have fun moving slowly in a game where moving slowly means death, btw you can't use special attack so you'll have to spam LMB guns or weak sword attacks).

- Enemy design boils down to: Weak melee enemies that rush you, weak ranged enemies that fire shit at you, weak flying enemies, and boss monsters who are HP sponges. Unfortunately 90% of the variety is in the boss monsters, so even if their powers are neat and well designed you'll just be annoyed because they are a fucking pain to take down every time you see one. There's human enemies with guns but by the 2nd level they are always a joke with the abilities you have.

It feels like the game was designed well in the beginning, but at some point the player was given all the overpowered sword shit and so the devs simply decided that the way to re-balance the game was to spam more and bigger monsters everywhere. These minibosses should be the fucking major bosses, not shit you fight multiple times a level. Ironically, the fights with the most monsters tend to be easier thanks to all the life leaching you can do with AoE sword attacks.

- Level design is generally quite linear. The environments themselves are OK, at times impressive visually. Player movement is... annoying and floaty. You can't even sprint and jump. And there are invisible walls fucking everywhere. I see 10 or 15 things that should be "obvious" secret areas, then when I go to jump I hit my face on an invisible wall. It gets to the point where I don't even give a shit about trying to find the secrets. It extends to other things too, you'll find "puzzles" that would easily be bypassable, and in fact look to be designed to be bypassable, yet when you try to obvious jump you'll smack your face into an invisible wall.

The major problem I have with the level is the enemy layout. Unlike a proper oldschool FPS, rather than enemies being part of the environment the enemies are part of "encounters". In other words, you enter an area, enemies rush you, you kill them then you get to explore. There's no continual overlap in exploration and finding enemies, it's just two separate parts of the game, and the exploration might as well not exist if it's just to go around pressing buttons and picking up loot. Fuck developers who think picking up loot is fun. I feel insulted when there are entire areas made with nothing for me to do but walk around the corners pressing "e" on loot piles.

- Humor is... not there? I mean, at most the humor is on the level of a buddy cop movie with Lo Wang and his buttbuddy bitching at each other all game. Story is the definition of BSB, waste of time.

Overall, disappointing. 5/10


- The "greater demons" are all giant HP sponges. Imagine Doom, but everything bigger than an imp is a baron. That's this.

This is the understatement of the year. For the record, Barons of Hell required ~15 shotgun shots and even the Cyberdemon only requires ~55. The Greater Demon's with axes? Took me ~70 shotgun blasts to take down. In chapter 7 and 8 I'm running across these fuckers in every other major battle, often in pairs (or worse). If you want to try the Uzi on them, expect to use about 750 of your 800 bullet capacity, and that's assuming you are aiming for the head.

Imagine doom, where every imp and below is a baron, everything bigger is a cyberdemon, and you are given a BFG with infinite ammo that fires at your feet and leeches enemy health.
 
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DalekFlay

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- Guns are pathetic. Again, at the beginning things feel alright and balanced. Then the game decides that you need to fight 10x as many enemies in a battle and any hope of shooting them down is gone. Even if you were patient enough to do so, you'd simply not have the ammo to do it. The upgrades are a joke and do jack shit, except in the case of the crossbow that can charge up for 4x damage (which is still useless for all but boss enemies). They sound weak too. You'll have a hard time just hearing them, which is ridiculous.

The game was obviously designed to make you switch from melee to ranged and back again repeatedly, adding to the frantic pace of combat. I do think they dropped the ball a bit, as guns feel very weak against cannon fodder enemies, which is kind of the opposite of what you would expect. I use ranged on pretty much every larger enemy though, and of course the little bastards who explode if they get near you. I feel like I have a reason to use ranged quite often and that's a good thing.

The feel is just thrown off by the sword being so much better for the average enemy.
 
Joined
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Even for Ranged the sword dominates. The long-ranged sword attack fires a decently large arc that also penetrates enemies and does damage comparable to the charged-up, 4x damage crossbow attack. And it's still leeching life. There's no reason to use the Crossbow unless against a large boss monster that you can headshot, and all the other weapons are just a joke.

Also the time to switch weapons is annoyingly long. Not long by FPS standards, but for a game that is trying to get you to use guns it basically takes forever to get one in your hand.
 
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baturinsky

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While I agree with most of what Manatee says, I really enjoyed the game. And plot. One of the very, very rare cases where ending did not disappoint (me).
 

UserNamer

Cipher
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692
I think "the step into the right direction" comments are totally useless. We have plenty of firmly placed in the exact right coordinate this direction should supposedly point games. Stuff like doom and quake are perfectly playable even today thanks to ports and high quality wad. Serious Sam 3 was a well designed action fps and it was released just in 2011 (if you disagree with this statement and you appreciated the new sw, don't bother commenting, just give me a time and a place and I'm going to bring a baseball bat), and the hd remakes are still recent and good to look at. So who the fuck cares if it is a "step in the right direction". It's shit, lazily designed shit. They just developed the graphics and then half-assed the rest. They didn't bother to design a fun hp\damage balance that made sense, to design levels that didn't reuse endlessly that piece of shit bamboo forest or cramped corridors full of crates'n'sploding cars and invisible walls. It's a piece of shit, there is no reason to play something that is a "step in the right direction" unless you have a video game addiction and anything will do. I would prefer doing nothing, replaying a firmly right directioned old game, or doing something productive, or simply wait for the next game doing it right that playing this just because it shows good intentions or some crap.

(note that this is directed to people who used the "step in the right direction" argument, if you enjoyed the game on its own merits: ok, whatever)
 
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Heresiarch

Prophet
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Mar 8, 2008
Messages
1,451
Even for Ranged the sword dominates (...)
Is this a problem?

Probably, since hey, if the sword is useless then people would complain that the game putting too much emphasis of it on the plot yet not making it strong enough, so now you have people who are complaining that guns are too weak, etc.

The only thing that annoys me a bit is reloading or changing weapons do feel just that tiny bit too slow, just slow enough to make me want to tear my hairs off. BTW to the people who complain the lack of ammo - you do realize you can buy ammo cheaply anytime?
 
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BTW to the people who complain the lack of ammo - you do realize you can buy ammo cheaply anytime?

I know you can buy it any time. Cheaply? Hell no.

SMG costs 1.5 money per bullet. Your average fight is going to take at least the full 800 rounds, costing 1.2k money. And 800 rounds is a huge underestimate, more like 1.5k rounds for your average fight with a miniboss and minions. That's certainly not cheap, not when guns are also where you're spending your money on upgrades to make them suck ever so slightly less.

Of course, one would then point out that you're supposed to mix it up with the sword to ease your ammo consumption, but if you're going to use the sword just use the damn sword because it's far better.
 
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DefJam101

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I actually like that the sword is useful. The sword was useful in the original Shadow Warrior, too. Having a useful melee weapon is what you might call a standout mechanic in an FPS game, especially an FPS game where everyone is Asian and the plot is about stealing magical katanas from demons.

But it needs to be toned down so that the decision to use the sword is more complex than

big dude? flying dude? SHOOT HIM
anything else? left click left click left click WW left click WW left click left click
 

J_C

One Bit Studio
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Project: Eternity Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath
But here we are, SW2013 and me, and neither of us are having any fun. That's just how the story goes.
Except me. But I have shit taste.
 

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