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Disco Elysium Pre-Release Thread [GO TO NEW THREAD]

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Excidium II

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Basically, even Sawyer's system of not penalizing the players for their evil choices is political. It's basically a statement : whether you choose to solve this quest in a good or evil way, you will be rewarded : the only path that carries no reward whatsoever is not resolving the quest, ie : inaction. There's your world representation right there : acting towards a resolution is inherently good, taking a stance is inherently good, while staying to observe outside resolution is basically stagnation. Infer from this what you will.

Which is a good or evil way? One could make a very convincing case that the NCR are an evil faction, if not the evil faction of the game; and Caesar's Legion and/or House are the real good guys. The great thing about how Sawyer designs his games is there is nuance to all the characters and factions, so depending on your world view, you might agree with and support them, or not. But there is no black and white where one side is clearly "good" and the other is entirely "evil". The NCR has a lot of blood on its hands for the massacre at Bitter Springs, for example, and they are also causing problems in Freeside. And if none of those three factions are to your liking, then there's always the Yes Man route. If you don't know what choice to make or don't want to make a choice, then Yes Man is the neutral position where you support no one (but yourself).

This is why Sawyer's games like FNV and POE are superior to 99% of the other games in existence. "Good" and "Evil" are well balanced, and nuanced.
The Caesar's Legion is nuanced? You mean the faction that supports slavery, rape, terrorism and mass murder? The one that condemns technology and medicine and uses child soldiers? I'd like to see this "convincing case" for them as the good guys, because Sawyer went out of his way to make them evil.
Yeah but this is a post-apo setting where such things are rampant. Legion looks like a monster for those being conquered but it's considered p. good for those who live under their rule. In-game they mention how legion territory doesn't have raiders or junkies and the roads are so safe caravans don't even hire guards.
 

Chris Avelltwo

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The Caesar's Legion is nuanced? You mean the faction that supports slavery, rape, terrorism and mass murder? The one that condemns technology and medicine and uses child soldiers? I'd like to see this "convincing case" for them as the good guys, because Sawyer went out of his way to make them evil.

You only see the negative, because Obsidian was forced to cut most of the Legion content they had planned to include. For example, there was supposed to be Legion settlements east of the river you could visit and see what life was like for the ordinary folk, and there was supposed to be a Legion companion which was never finished, and ultimately became the Ulysses character instead. One of the few non-military people you meet who speak positively of them that wasn't cut was Dale Barton, who is a merchant you can find at Caesar's camp. Ask him about what life in Legion territory is like and you'll get a tiny bit of insight. Raul also seems to favor the Legion somewhat, and even Cass will grudgingly admit that Legion territory is safer to business in than NCR territory, because the Legion do such a good job cracking down on raiders and deathclaws and so on. So no, it is not all bad. You might have a lot less freedom in the Legion, but you do have a lot more security because of how severely they punish crime.

Sawyer didn't go out of his way to make them evil; nor did he go out of his way to make them good. He based them off the real world Roman Empire, with all the positives and negatives that come with that.

You mean the faction that supports slavery, rape, terrorism and mass murder?

The same applies to the NCR. I already pointed out the Bitter Springs massacre, and the NCR squatters terrorizing people in Freeside. As for slavery, you know who the powder gangers are, right? Just before the event of FNV, there was a revolt at the NCR prison and the prisoners took over and became "Powder Gangers" and started terrorizing the neighboring settlements. What you might not know is that these prisoners were being used as forced labor to repair the railroad to the quarry, and that's also why they use dynamite and call themselves Powder Gangers. Yes, it is true the Legion uses slave labor as well and they're more extreme about it, but its not as black and white as you seem to think.
 

Chris Avelltwo

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Cass will grudgingly admit that Legion territory is safer to business in than NCR territory,
Not only safer but also better business, iirc she mentions how in NCR territory between constant toll charges and needing to hire a small army, you're lucky to break even.

In the Primm quest you have three choices for who takes over security for the town, and one of the choices is have the NCR come in, but if you do that Johnson Nash will be pissed, and the prices in his store go up because he now has to pay NCR taxes. NCR is bad for small businesses in the Mojave, because you know they're going to impose post-apocalyptic equivalents of Obamacare on them and crippling the economy.
 

MRY

Wormwood Studios
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The answer is no, because if your game is just a means to propaganda, the writing will come across as form of psychological-conditioning dogma that treats different points of views as caricatures.
IMO, the biggest danger is that when you write about a person you like doing things you admire in a cause you believe to be just, the Mary Sue temptations are overwhelming, particularly if you're writing from a framework in which variance from the dogma requires you to engage in public self-criticism. If you're a strong ideologue, it's better to have your protagonists be ones you dislike engage in a task you find distasteful: the very fact that they're protagonists will inevitably make you partial to them, anyway, but your inherent dislike will act as a check on Mary Sue-ism. IMO, one of the problems in a lot of the political RPG stuff is that unimpeachable character types are made to be the voices of reason and it comes across pretty poorly.
 

Fairfax

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You only see the negative, because Obsidian was forced to cut most of the Legion content they had planned to include. For example, there was supposed to be Legion settlements east of the river you could visit and see what life was like for the ordinary folk, and there was supposed to be a Legion companion which was never finished, and ultimately became the Ulysses character instead.
Ulysses was the companion, and he was supposed to talk about the good things in the Legion, but Sawyer cut him because MCA wrote too much content. He wasn't "forced".

Sawyer didn't go out of his way to make them evil; nor did he go out of his way to make them good. He based them off the real world Roman Empire, with all the positives and negatives that come with that.
The Roman Empire didn't have the extreme misogyny (even Sawyer admitted they went too far), didn't use child soldiers and didn't tolerate cannibalism. It also had a Senate, and both citizens and slaves had a lot more rights. It also didn't oppose technology, medicine, science and infrastructure. Quite the opposite, actually.

Something like the Roman Empire would've been less over the top, but it'd still take a sociopath to try and justify the Legion's worst aspects in the name of safety and order, even for a post-apocalyptic society.

The same applies to the NCR. I already pointed out the Bitter Springs massacre, and the NCR squatters terrorizing people in Freeside. As for slavery, you know who the powder gangers are, right? Just before the event of FNV, there was a revolt at the NCR prison and the prisoners took over and became "Powder Gangers" and started terrorizing the neighboring settlements. What you might not know is that these prisoners were being used as forced labor to repair the railroad to the quarry, and that's also why they use dynamite and call themselves Powder Gangers. Yes, it is true the Legion uses slave labor as well and they're more extreme about it, but its not as black and white as you seem to think.
The NCR is extremely problematic and the devs made sure to reinforce that in several occasions. Still, even if you believe the NCR isn't much better, or if the NCR was just as extreme about slavery and rape, it still wouldn't make the Legion "the good guys" (nor the NCR).
 
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Irenaeus

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You only see the negative, because Obsidian was forced to cut most of the Legion content they had planned to include. For example, there was supposed to be Legion settlements east of the river you could visit and see what life was like for the ordinary folk, and there was supposed to be a Legion companion which was never finished, and ultimately became the Ulysses character instead.
Ulysses was the companion, and he was supposed to talk about the good things in the Legion, but Sawyer cut him because MCA wrote too much content. He wasn't "forced".

Typical of that jealous hipster.
 

Chateaubryan

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Sorry, I've shortened the quotes in order to avoid a big clusterfuck of text. And yeah, I didn't take proper time to read the initial panel statement. I guess that being leftie and shit, I wasn't triggered by its buzzwords like an honest codexer would.

Kreia is making an interesting argument against Jedi altruism, which is always taken for granted in Star Wars stories. MCA didn't want to push an anti-charity agenda. He considered it an interesting theme to explore, so even though Kreia herself has a very strong opinion, the game as a whole doesn't take a side. The player is supposed to answer the questions, not the game.

You're stretching it a little by comparing one of Kotor 2's most famous cutscenes to some PR talk given as example to journalists. To be honest, it feels like a cheap potshot. I didn't follow much of NTWTF development until then - even if I'm interested with it - but from what I understood, the "facist" alignement system is not necessarily chastizing the player for making such conversation choices. It is simply that : an alignment system, and as such, we can assume that content - text, quests, etc. - will be created to insure players will have the proper consequences to their choice of alignment. I don't see how this system is inherently bad, biased or even preachy.

As for the panel statements - which sounds a bit forced to be honest - I suggest we wait and see what the game is about before we can tell if any political bias are forced upon the players. Even though making assumptions on a game before its out is a valid and interesting codexian exercice (not a sarcasm), I usually wait for the game to be out to pass any kind of judgement on it.

What really matters here, as you said, is not that every point of view is forced upon the player, that no political ideas are hamfistedly telegraphed into his brain. On that, of course I agree with you.
(As for the main theme of PST, I can find political inferences from the answers you can give to Ravel, for example. But in this case, I admit I'm the one who's stretching it.)

I suspect that the only difference between our views is that I don't think that taking a political stance and expanding upon it in a work of fiction is a bad thing in itself - though there are plenty of ways of doing it *wrong*.

But that's the problem, they are not statements. That translation is invalid.

Game mecanics? They're even more than statements : they are rules the player must observe. As such, they are necessarily internalized by the players. To which degree, that's an open question.

The fact that any world-representation can involve some sort of political assumption is trivial. The real question is whether from the fact that fiction cannot be completely neutral it follows that it should be completely biased. The answer is no, because if your game is just a means to propaganda, the writing will come across as form of psychological-conditioning dogma that treats different points of views as caricatures.

From my point of view, the game with an upfront political stance is far less insidious than the one proclaiming to be closer to any kind of universal truth : a half-truth claiming to be objective is far more harmful.

Despite what the fanatics from the left says, we should always strive to achieve objectivity.

Sorry, couldn't resist.

Hypocritical is thinking that the lack of perfect impartially justifies everything goes mentality. Not even physical instruments are 100% accurate, but you don’t see physicists arguing that this lack of perfect objectivity implies that anyone can make their your own calculus.

Exactly, you don't necessarily learn any truth by playing a video game. You turn to science and studies for that kind of enlightement (but that's another debate). What you can expect from a game, or a book, or a movie carrying worldviews is to be challenged by it. You might learn something from it if it drives you to a corner or maybe ask you a question you haven't considered before... And if the game - or book - is upfront with its stance - generally, you can't miss the cues - you can't tax it with dishonesty : you're confronted with a postulate you're free to criticize, answer to, or dismiss.


Bottom line is : I agree with Fairfax, players should be the ones coming up with their own answers, and I don't think it's incompatible with the dev/writer taking a stance - on the contrary. If it's done right, it's either a whetstone to further your views, or in the best case, a good story that will bring you new perspectives.
 

Chris Avelltwo

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The Roman Empire didn't have the extreme misogyny (even Sawyer admitted they went too far),

Yes, I agree. But misogyny was a very real thing in the Roman empire to some extent. It did go too far in NV though, but if even Sawyer agrees with this then we should see this as a mistake and not something that should be viewed as canon.

didn't use child soldiers

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_use_of_children#1800s_and_earlier

It seems that they did, as did most if not all of the adversaries Rome fought. There was no Geneva Convention in ancient times; nor would there be one in a post-apocalyptic world either - at least not one that would be acknowledged. Also, the children you see running around in Caesar's fort never actually get involved in combat. I don't remember if that is implied, but maybe they were just training for the future when they would come of age. Like the Spartans in the movie 300, where the boys wrestle one another to harden them up and make them into real men instead of pansies. Giving young boys a Spartan upbringing isn't the same thing as "child soldiers"; they are only child soldiers if they're actually sent into battle, and that never actually happens in the game.

and didn't tolerate cannibalism.

Do they? The only cannibals I recall are Mortimer and Violet. You can get the rest of the White Glove Society to embrace cannibalism, and get them to ally with the Legion, but I don't know if you could say that counts as the Legion "tolerating cannibalism". If it does, it would only be temporarily, because the Legion eventually destroys the identities of the tribes it assimilates, and the White Glove Society (and the other casino families) wouldn't be any different. I'm sure a lot of tribes the Legion absorbed have practiced cannibalism to some degree - it's not uncommon for a post-apocalyptic world, after all.

It also had a Senate,

The Roman Republic, yeah. That's not the same thing as the Roman Empire that started with Caesar and became autocratic.

and both citizens and slaves had a lot more rights.

The Legion content we have is too little to accurately judge what level of rights they have or don't have. There's simply not enough information to go on.

It also didn't oppose technology, medicine, science and infrastructure. Quite the opposite, actually.

You're allowed to take chems into the fort if you tell the guard you need it for a heart condition, and Caesar has a medical robot thing in his tent. There's also a quest where the Legion tries to buy energy weapons from the Van Graffs, but she betrays and kills them. So I wouldn't say they're against technology per se. As for the infrastructure, well they are fighting for control of the Hoover Dam, are they not? It's hard to think of a more significant piece of infrastructure than that.

And again, we know nil about the inside of Legion territory. If we could visit there, I expect you might find a fuckload of infrastructure built by slave labor. In the Mojave all the roads are crumbling and apparently unrepaired since the pre-war days, but further east in Legion territory I'd expect you'd probably find new built roads, and aqueducts, and stuff like that. You're saying they're against these things, but have you been there? That's the sort of content that was cut due to time constraints.
 

Popiel

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The Roman Republic, yeah. That's not the same thing as the Roman Empire that started with Caesar and became autocratic.
What the fuck? Empire started with Augustus, not his adoptive father Julius Caesar, and Senate was there still, shaping the Roman politics way up until collapse of the Western Roman Empire. It often clashed with emperors, and even pushed some of their own during times of crisis. It existed in Eastern Rome/Byzantium way until full Medieval era, but there it was obviously much weaker. Get your facts straight.
 

Chris Avelltwo

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The Roman Republic, yeah. That's not the same thing as the Roman Empire that started with Caesar and became autocratic.
What the fuck? Empire started with Augustus, not his adoptive father Julius Caesar, and Senate was there still, shaping the Roman politics way up until collapse of the Western Roman Empire. It often clashed with emperors, and even pushed some of their own during times of crisis. It existed in Eastern Rome/Byzantium way until full Medieval era, but there it was obviously much weaker. Get your facts straight.

Yes it technically existed, but Rome ceased to be a Republic from Caesar onward. That's the reason Brutus and the other senators conspired to assassinate him.



Now, to be fair, we don't actually know for certain that there isn't some token senate back in Legion territory. There could very well be one for all we know. Even Emperor Palpatine kept the Imperial senate around... at least for awhile. Serves as a nice rubber-stamp to make your dictatorship seem a little less dictatory.
 

Tom Selleck

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I haven't read a single word in this thread since the Fat Chris Avellone picture, but is this game a tranny fag simulator now or not?
 

Prime Junta

Guest
I'd really like to know what the best written video games are.

Off the top of my head, here are some which IMO stand on their writing --

Deus Ex (very political)
Planescape: Torment (philosophical, not political)
Mask of the Betrayer (ethical, not political)
The Witcher series, although quality varies quite a bit (political)
 

MasPingon

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I'd really like to know what the best written video games are.

Off the top of my head, here are some which IMO stand on their writing --

Deus Ex (very political)
Planescape: Torment (philosophical, not political)
Mask of the Betrayer (ethical, not political)
The Witcher series, although quality varies quite a bit (political)

I got a feeling you miss a point here, by a miles. Deus Ex and The Witcher series are as apolitical as they can get. There is a lot of politics in those games but the devs are not trying to educate a player, guide him, those are not tools of political agenda. And that is what the whole discussion is all about.
 

Stakhanov

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Oct 28, 2010
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I'd add Fallout as a shining example of how being political can help create an engaging and meaningful narrative. Although it's easy to see how FO can be read as a leftist or moderate satire/critique of jingoistic politics, capitalism (resource wars), hierarchy (the Vaults, the Enclave) etc., I don't think that mars the experience, and it doesn't seem to have triggered those with different political leanings. When it comes to playing the game, you explore different communities that embody different forms of social and political organisation, from book-reading punk pacifists to slavers to techno-fetishists living in a kind of monastery, and choose how to respond to them. The writers took the time to envision the different permutations of how communities would respond to the apocalypse, from social-political organisation down to economic details like how they traded and grew their food, the kinds of details very few game designers have ever bothered with. And it's fucking brilliant.

Great writing has to be, in some sense, political; that's how writing/art works. A creator takes social raw material (which is already political) and translates it into a medium of expression. If you aren't taking inspiration from your society, then what do you take inspiration from? Regurgitated plots, pop culture, memes, etc. Is that not the problem with the BioBeth approach to writing?

The predictable knee-jerk response to political writing here reads as some kind of weak right-wing (((safe space))) hand-wringing. Given the way the narrative mechanics in No Truce have been described, with the thought cabinets, etc., agency isn't going to be taken out of the player's hands, nor is it going to be videogame equivalent of reading the Little Red Book. I don't see the problem.
 

ArchAngel

Arcane
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Mar 16, 2015
Messages
19,981
I'd really like to know what the best written video games are.

Off the top of my head, here are some which IMO stand on their writing --

Deus Ex (very political)
Planescape: Torment (philosophical, not political)
Mask of the Betrayer (ethical, not political)
The Witcher series, although quality varies quite a bit (political)

I got a feeling you miss a point here, by a miles. Deus Ex and The Witcher series are as apolitical as they can get. There is a lot of politics in those games but the devs are not trying to educate a player, guide him, those are not tools of political agenda. And that is what the whole discussion is all about.
Not true. As soon as devs plop you into a world that is a police state enforcing the power for the few powerful people working behind the scenes and they are shown as enemy of the little people that is political. If you are at the age of being impressionable or a older person but still open to new information or ideas this game is a political statement that will make you think how freedom from oppression, any kind of oppression is what you need to strive for. And that is a political game.
 

MasPingon

Arcane
Joined
May 13, 2007
Messages
1,798
Location
Castle Rock
I'd really like to know what the best written video games are.

Off the top of my head, here are some which IMO stand on their writing --

Deus Ex (very political)
Planescape: Torment (philosophical, not political)
Mask of the Betrayer (ethical, not political)
The Witcher series, although quality varies quite a bit (political)

I got a feeling you miss a point here, by a miles. Deus Ex and The Witcher series are as apolitical as they can get. There is a lot of politics in those games but the devs are not trying to educate a player, guide him, those are not tools of political agenda. And that is what the whole discussion is all about.
Not true. As soon as devs plop you into a world that is a police state enforcing the power for the few powerful people working behind the scenes and they are shown as enemy of the little people that is political. If you are at the age of being impressionable or a older person but still open to new information or ideas this game is a political statement that will make you think how freedom from oppression, any kind of oppression is what you need to strive for. And that is a political game.

Not true, it's about ideas, not politics. Judging like this, you can as well say Karl Marx, George Orwell or Franz Kafka were politicans. Can you see the difference?
 
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