Numenera: Monte Cook's new 'Space Fantasy' rpg.

[Excidium]

Dude he can cosplay the black knight from monty python and you talking about privilege lul

 

[mindx2]

Dude he can cosplay the black knight from monty python and you talking about privilege lul

I'll Bite Your Legs OFF!!!!



Now that's funny...


You see, that's the problem with these types... they arrogantly assume that their way of thinking is what's best for us poor downtrodden plebes. They're just as "guilty" as those they try to slander....

 

[tuluse]

Huh I somehow didn't get the alert.

Nice anti-woman subtext he has going on there.

Subtext? How much more blatant can one be than a woman who exists for nothing else than to get pregnant, but in the meantime is docile and friendly towards men?

 

[Zewp]

Privilege: the post.

Roguey, your constant social crusaderism is pretty fucking tiresome. It's a videogame. Get over it.

This is basically a succubus that's been slightly altered so it has a need for reproduction. Are you going to tell me you take offence at succubi, incubi, sirens and any other sexual predators from ancient mythology?

 

[Roguey]

Dude he can cosplay the black knight from monty python and you talking about privilege lul

For your information she/he/it I'm actually one of your so-called "oppressed" ones... project much...

~Intersectionality~.

Roguey, your constant social crusaderism is pretty fucking tiresome. It's a videogame. Get over it.

Well in this case it's a tabletop game.

This is basically a succubus that's been slightly altered so it has a need for reproduction. Are you going to tell me you take offence at succubi, incubi, sirens and any other sexual predators from ancient mythology?

Those are pretty lousy creatures, yes. Stealing your essence, your precious bodily fluids.

This is my favorite post in that thread http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php...10764c6f19346e48c0b2c&p=17050680#post17050680

I'm going to broaden my criticism here. The problem isn't with the Nibovian Wife. The problem is with Numenera, the game, and Monte Cook's creative approach to it, and really his creative approach to game material in general -- every problem we see here has been evident in his work since the ridiculous Book of Vile Darkness (Nipple clamps of exquisite pain! BSDM is evil!) and Book of Exalted Deeds (Poison is evil but it's okay for good people to use ravages because they're not poisons, they're ravages; they're mechanically identical but they have a different name and everything!).

Numenera is not a groundbreaking or interesting project, and it doesn't want to be. It wants to sell itself to people who are looking for a groundbreaking and interesting project, but it doesn't want to actually deliver on that promise.

Numenera is shallow. It presents the vague impression of interesting ideas but it doesn't do anything interesting with them; we draw comparisons with Planescape because, obviously, we're getting Torment: Tides of Numenera next year, but Planescape was actually trying to address interesting questions, like "How would an interplanar society work where ideology shapes the nature of existence?" The factions were attempts to write up non-obvious takes on the ideas they represented. It deliberately used non-standard art styles -- heavy use of DiTerlizzi -- to draw a contrast between itself and other game products of the time. Looking back, it often didn't do a very sophisticated job, and often disappeared up its own ass (the cant; also, the Lady of Pain gets a lot less intriguing when you realize she's just a send-up of Lorraine Williams -- wanders through the halls at random, doesn't speak, banishes people capriciously), but it made a genuine attempt. Numenera does not.

Earlier I described Numenera as Book of the New Sun meets How People Actually Play Roleplaying Games. Here's what people do when they play roleplaying games, as nearly as I have been able to tell:

1) They fight weird monsters.
2) They conceive, and enact, very stupid plans, which work because everything is running on GM fiat and constantly making PC plans not work just because they're very stupid and unworkable is no fun for anyone.
3) They quote pop culture.

I presented this in a light-hearted peanut-gallery-esque fashion because I didn't really want to be a buzzkill on the Numenera intro thread. Here's what I didn't say when I said that:

As a game designer I believe it is bad practice to write your game specifically, and exclusively, to cater to that style of gameplay, for exactly the same reason it's bad practice to set out to write a list of plot hooks and include only very obvious ones. That style of play will happen no matter what game you write. Players will always, and forever, fight weird monsters, enact stupid plans, and quote pop culture. There are people playing Dogs in the Vineyard where the Dogs are fighting weird demons, enacting stupid plans, and quoting Firefly. A good game has to provide more than support for that, not because that style of play is bad (that style of play is fine; I had a lot of fun with that style of play), but because publishing an instruction manual on how to do something the players already know how to do is a ripoff.

Numenera is as un-challenging and uninspired a take on its own premise as I can imagine. It's Ravages and Afflictions from the Book of Exalted Deeds expanded into a whole hardcover. The mechanics look interesting! The art, as much as it's just bog-standard execution of a style firmly established during the D&D3e and 3.5 era (often illustrating concepts Monte came up with), is very pretty! But it's not interesting or challenging and indeed is actively disinterested in being interesting or challenging. Notice how the writeup of the Nibovian Wife goes out of its way to shut down the more interesting takes on the ideas represented -- you can't talk to them meaningfully about the problem of their existence, or point out that their babies are monsters, so you never have to feel guilty about killing them and looting their wombs for magic potions. It's like orcs that are always chaotic evil so you never have to worry about orphaning orc babies.

This is all throughout the bestiary. All the monsters are like this -- they all have contrived behavioral patterns and restrictions on how you can communicate to them that make sense in context but always, always boil down to "You don't have to feel guilty about just straight-up killing this thing." This is beer and pretzels roleplaying. It's not just here -- how many other products by Monte Cook have monsters like that?

(All of them.)

...

Normally this is not really a problem. I find it creatively annoying but whatevs, beer and pretzels are fine. It gets weird when you apply it to orcs and all sorts of racial political subtext comes to the fore, but that's not a hill I want to die on, and anyway most RPGs just use "Often chaotic evil" for that sort of thing nowadays.

It's a problem here because the succubus myth is deeply problematic, and while I genuinely don't think there's anything wrong with playing with problematic ideas, playing with problematic ideas in an unexamined fashion just perpetuates them. I don't care who wrote the Nibovian Wife; Numenera is Monte's baby and he's ultimately responsible for everything between its covers. He put it there even if he didn't write it. I don't think he's a bigot; I think he's irresponsible, because he published a lazy, thoughtless take on a bigoted piece of myth.

Tabletop hacks never change.

Also wow RPG.net is an awful forum, the mods have hair-triggers when it comes to throwing out bans.

 

[Infinitron]

Lots of people thought Planescape was weird edgy nonsense when it was released too. Hindsight is 20/20.

Also anybody who uses the word "problematic" in a political context should be automatically disregarded

 

[Stonewolf]

Music and artworks are the only things that I'm interested in after seeing that video.

 

[Infinitron]

Oh look, that Zak guy he's arguing with there is Alex's friend, the D&D with Porn Stars guy.

 

[Roguey]

Ha, his latest blog post is hilarious. He was permabanned for reasons I find unfathomable.

Lots of people thought Planescape was weird edgy nonsense when it was released too. Hindsight is 20/20.

But it is.

Also anybody who uses the word "problematic" in a political context should be automatically disregarded

"I don't like this word so I'm going to be a baby about it"

 

[Infinitron]

"I don't like this word so I'm going to be a baby about it"

It's a pretentious, passive-aggressive cop-out. "This is SOOOOOOO wrong that I'm not even gonna say why. But I'm saying it causes PROBLEMS which means that it's bad so stop talking about it. Or I'll ban you."

It's like that thing Allan Bloom was talking about.

 

[mindx2]

~Intersectionality~.


I actually had to look that word up and after reading the definition it became crystal clear what is wrong with academia today... as well as the Balkinization of society in general.

 

[TigerKnee]

This is basically a succubus that's been slightly altered so it has a need for reproduction. Are you going to tell me you take offence at succubi, incubi, sirens and any other sexual predators from ancient mythology?

It's not even "slightly" altered. What did you think the purpose of a succubus in original mythology was, before they got skimmed down in RPGs to just "They're super hot even though they have bat wings and stuff and can use special seducing powers to mind control people"?

That being said, when the succubus was invented by... I dunno, some monk 100000000 billion zillion years ago to explain nocturnal emissions, it was born under a specific set of social and cultural enviroment. You really can't just paint it with a sci-fi coat of paint and go "well, I'm done here!" because that's ultra lame.

 

[Roguey]

It's a pretentious, passive-aggressive cop-out. "This is SOOOOOOO wrong that I'm not even gonna say why. But I'm saying it causes PROBLEMS which means that it's bad so stop talking about it. Or I'll ban you."

It's like that thing Allan Bloom was talking about.

How much more blatant can one be than a woman who exists for nothing else than to get pregnant, but in the meantime is docile and friendly towards men?

Explained just fine. I don't see anything passive aggressive about it.

 

[Infinitron]

It's a pretentious, passive-aggressive cop-out. "This is SOOOOOOO wrong that I'm not even gonna say why. But I'm saying it causes PROBLEMS which means that it's bad so stop talking about it. Or I'll ban you."

It's like that thing Allan Bloom was talking about.

How much more blatant can one be than a woman who exists for nothing else than to get pregnant, but in the meantime is docile and friendly towards men?

Explained just fine. I don't see anything passive aggressive about it.

Blatant about what? Succubi are basically just fantasy temptresses, and temptresses are a recurring trope in human culture and the human condition.



Is the human condition "problematic"? Maybe it is, but either deal with it or be an unloved misanthrope.

 

[evdk]

FIFTY ONE PAGES

You laugh, but we all know where this thread is heading...

 

[Absalom]

It's a pretentious, passive-aggressive cop-out. "This is SOOOOOOO wrong that I'm not even gonna say why. But I'm saying it causes PROBLEMS which means that it's bad so stop talking about it. Or I'll ban you."

It's like that thing Allan Bloom was talking about.

Holy shit that looks like an interesting read. Thanks

 

[Infinitron]

It's a pretentious, passive-aggressive cop-out. "This is SOOOOOOO wrong that I'm not even gonna say why. But I'm saying it causes PROBLEMS which means that it's bad so stop talking about it. Or I'll ban you."

It's like that thing Allan Bloom was talking about.

Holy shit that looks like an interesting read. Thanks

Some good quotes here: http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/The_Closing_of_the_American_Mind

 

[Brotherman Bill]

Nibovian Wives

Description: These biological constructs appear to be beautiful female humans. Their only
function, however, is to seduce human men so that they can get pregnant. Pregnancy in these
creatures opens a transdimensional rift inside their womb, giving a ultraterrestrial demon access
to this level of existence. “Gestation,” which is actually just the aligning of phase changes to
creating the rift, varies greatly. The time required ranges from 10 minutes to nine months. When
the creature is “born,” the Nibovian wife nurtures it as if it were a child, even though it clearly is
not. During this time, the construct defends the “child” fiercely, using incredible strength and
resilience. The demon develops quickly, and its first and only compulsion is to hunt down and
kill the “father.” Once it does so, it is free in this world to do as it pleases.
Nibovian wives are likely the cause of many ultraterrestrials currently in the world.

Interaction: As long as you give these creatures what they want, they are perfectly
reasonable, kind, and seem eager to please. They can never be convinced to abandon their
imperative (reproducing and nurturing their terrible child). On other issues, however, they can be
perfectly reasonable.
Use: Nibovian wives are a strange encounter that is useful for introducing the concept of
otherdimensional beings in a horrific way. The ancients interacted with ultraterrestrials and
explored other dimensions, but in the Ninth World, such beings are thought of as demons.
Loot: The inner workings of a Nibovian wife can provide 1d6 cyphers to one trained in
scavenging them.


Roguey


Also doesn't Roguey and Sawyer have a loathing for Monte Cook? I guess this game kinda supports their view

HERE THEY COMEEEEEE http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?697888-Numenera-W-T-F-Monte!

So I was kind of linking forward to Numenera, because far future fantasy is something I'm working on, and I was kind of interested in what ideas Monte Cook might bring to the table.

...until this showed up on a post in G+:

NIBOVIAN WIFE 3 (9) These biological constructs appear to be beautiful female humans. Their only function, however, is to seduce male humans so they can get pregnant. Pregnancy in a Nibovian wife opens a transdimensional rift inside its womb, giving an ultraterrestrial (such as an abykos, an erynth grask or any ultraterrestrial creature the GM wishes) access to this level of existence. The time required for “gestation,” which is actually the aligning of phase changes to create the rift, ranges from ten minutes to nine months. When the ultraterrestrial creature is “born,” the Nibovian wife nurtures it as if it were a child, even though it clearly is not. During this time, the construct defends the “child” fiercely, using incredible strength and resilience. The young creature develops quickly, and its first and only compulsion is to hunt down and kill its “father.” Once it does so, it is free to do as it pleases in the world. Nibovian wives are likely the cause of many ultraterrestrials currently in the Ninth World. Motive: Seduction for reproduction, defense of its “offspring” Environment: Anywhere Health: 9 Damage Inflicted: 5 points Armor: 2 Movement: Short Modifications: Resists mental effects as level 4. Combat: Nibovian wives attack with their fists, which pummel with a strength that betrays their inhuman nature. Their flesh is as resilient as armor. Interaction: As long as you give Nibovian wives what they want, they are kind and eager to please. They can never be convinced to abandon their imperative (reproducing and nurturing their terrible child), but on other issues, they can be perfectly reasonable. Use: A strange encounter with Nibovian wives can introduce the concept of otherdimensional beings in a horrific way. The ancients explored other dimensions and interacted with ultraterrestrials, but in the Ninth World, such beings are thought of as demons. Loot: The inner workings of a Nibovian wife can provide 1d6 cyphers to someone trained in scavenging them.

...wow. You know, just when I start thinking the hobby is coming out of the 1970s, shit like this happens. I am so not interested in this game now.

FIFTY ONE PAGES

rpg.net has a watch/codex relationship with therpgsite.com: http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?t=27334&page=6

If people on RPG.net actually played RPGs then they would have some fun and that would threaten to un-wad their collective panties, thus causing them to lose social justice warrior credibility.

RPG.Net: Where it's not enough that I'm offended and won't play the game. Everyone must be offended and none shall play. Anything less is unacceptable.

I guess game designers can no longer use existing myths and fables as inspiration for their games about myths and fables.

We should send out emissaries and establish an embassy with therpgsite.com

 

[m_s0]

I finally got my free pre-order Numenera Corebook PDF this morning (after some delays) and this old Erol Otus drawing sums up how I feel about it the book:

At 400+ pages it will take a while to absorb it all but I'm only half-way flipping through and my mind is blown. On a visual level it's possibly the most beautiful RPG book I own (next to DCC RPG). The art is consistently high-quality and full of awesome science fantasy weirdness. Layout is clean yet stylish, and easy to navigate. I'm so glad I pre-ordered the hardcover. Looking forward to digging into all the setting info and game mechanics.

As far as the layout and the visuals go the book looks pretty neat, yeah.

The rules, on the other hand, are not something I look forward to after flipping through and skimming some parts.

 

[evdk]

The rules, on the other hand, are not something I look forward to after flipping through and skimming some parts.

I would actually like to see it in play, because to me it at least feels interesting.

 

[m_s0]

That's a fair point, they do have their own flavor. Can't say much more than that until I get some time to read through it, but the setting is what interests me the most at this point.

 

[CappenVarra]

We should send out emissaries and establish an embassy with therpgsite.com

The RPG Site is a pretty cool forum, been lurking there almost a year now... An alliance would be swell.

 

[Infinitron]

Looks they would fit here: http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/index.php?threads/codex-equivalents-of-other-fandoms.77950/

 

[Alex]

Wait I thought rpg.net loved Monte Cook for being a SJW

No, they seem to mostly hate him for not making 4e.

 

[Mother Russia]

Ah haha, that rpg.net thread exploded in just one day. It was super disgusting to browse. The entire forum has gone to pure and utter shit. I have been banned 3 times from there already over the past years due to mild mannered posts in their Tangency section (aka their GD). You cannot see that sub-forum if you are not logged on.

Anyhow, can someone give concrete info on the system, and examples of powers/talents/feats and magic? There are tons of other places on the net I can get this info and I have perused some of it. But I want a Codexian perspective from a Codexian bro.

Oh and btw here is a great post from the D&D with Porn Stars site I just checked out after reading Infinitron 's link:

http://dndwithpornstars.blogspot.co.il/2013/08/open-letter-to-shannon-appelcline-and.html

Although you own RPGnet, you may not be aware many of the people you've chosen to moderate your forum there recently spent a 500-post thread arguing that Monte Cook, Shanna Germain and Kieran Yanner's game Numenera promotes sexism because it has a succubus in it. Well, a space succubus.

(And kicking out people for disagreeing with them. It's kind of a normal day on RPGnet like that.)

Meanwhile, RPGnet lets ads like this run on the front page:

​

​

If RPGnet is serious about fighting sexism in gaming you maybe might want to do something about that.

And if RPGnet is serious about attracting a better quality of advertiser you maybe might want to do something about your moderators.

Sincerely,

The D&D With Porn Stars crew