Incline One fell swoop or how to fix multiple fantasy cRPG problems...

[DraQ]

...with a semi-Vancian system, of all things.

There are a lot of problems with cRPG stat systems - intelligence is generally unenforceable (because if you make a stat-wise moron and want to play him as brilliant tactician and clever problem solver you will - any hurdles dumb system will throw your way are just going to be additional challenges in the game of circumvention and problem solving the *ACTUAL* intelligence is), while dump stats make stat systems pointless and character building a chore.

OTOH there are recurring tropes in fantasy cRPGs that just don't make sense, even if they are backed by good, out of universe reasons (like single use spell tomes, or the highest priority target in an adventuring party always wearing bathrobe as their sole protection) - it woud be nice if they either started making sense or disappeared altogether.

What if I told you that you can fix all those problems using, of all things, a semi-Vancian system (Vancian spellcasting is yet another position on the list of popular fantasy RPG tropes that just don't make sense), and a one inspired by DOS2 (which completely dropped the ball as far as atributes are concerned) at that? Read on.

Intelligence stat, as it's been discussed elsewhere, is a lost cause. You can't make a dumb system to act as a referee for an attribute that deals, among other things, with breaking out of dumb systems. If you want attribute based dialogue, you can have eloquence stat, spellcasting may use willpower or some magic affinity or whatever, but intelligence needs to go.
Regarding other stats, it's easy to make them all attractive to most sorts of characters - a warrior still needs dexterity to be more than an easily dispatched thug and pack mule, a sneaky type can benefit from strength for all sorts of surprise grappling that should be prerequisite for any sort of stealthy physical takedown (you generally can't expect to stab a guy and have him go down instantly and quietly), archers actually need to be fucking strong first and foremost, but what about mages?

You can make a case for dexterity being useful for spellcasting types as they rely on complex, arcane gestures and rituals - it could dramatically affect casting time, for example, defensive attributes like endurance are rather universally useful as well, doubly so if you have a lot of weaponizable envirnomental hazards or cast from stamina, but (muscle wizards aside) what about strength? An obvious use of strength would be getting the highest priority target in the party the best protection money can buy, especially given that caster doesn't really need much mobility. That would be potentially an interesting twist in your traditional fantasy, but it might face balance problems, plus you might want to hold onto your bathrobes for various reasons - is there another way?

Turns out there is. First let's assume that we don't have stupid vanishing spell tomes mechanics, which clearly exists only for game-y reason - making used spell tomes non-resellable. Now take wizard's personal spellbook, which in most cases exists as purely UI vestige anyway, and throw it the fuck away. Now, let's ponder the reason why spells come in tomes or at least on scrolls anyway (instead of just scraps of paper - even a scroll can still contain a lot of material) and why not every fucktarded youngling can be a wizard: a spell, even if it can be cast quickly, is clearly a lot of esoteric, hard to grok and even harder to master material that's probably full of minutiae that can get your face to implode and spew demons if you get them wrong. Humans and presumably other sapients, it turns out, aren't that great at learning and memorization of large amounts of detail critical material - it requires time, effort and tends to not stick around when it's not used, especially when you need to study and memorize something else - there is a reason why pilots and astronauts go through detailed rehearsals of every little thing and still have to use written checklists. Therefore I propose that wizards have to prepare and study their (non-vanishing) spell tomes every time they change their spell loadout (which requires making camp) - individual spells may take different amount of "memory space" rather than having definite tiers and of course, unlike full Vancian silliness, they don't need to prepare fireball twice in order to cast it twice. Of course, to be able to change your spell loadout you need to keep your books, and if you are navigating a dungeon, you need to carry them on your person and they are going to be quite heavy - this makes strength a useful choice (you can add reagents as well) and still precludes wearing heavy armour in most circumstances - robes turn out to be quite practical attire. Of course, you can encumber another member of the group, but this will cut into their armour allowance - meaning potentially less tanky tank, stealth ability, or ammo capacity. You might use hired help too, but you need to take into account what happens if they are killed or run off.

The entire thought process was started by the latest Divinity game which features this kind of semi-Vancian system (but not the other things - in particular the attribute system is downright awful), so lar_q .

 

[Bester]

It's an interesting deviation, but the details aren't thought-out. Say a magician joins your party. He only knew magic missiles before. Now he's given a tome on raising the dead, on teleportation, on summoning and bargaining with a djinn. It's a LOT to absorb. He can't be expected to prepare all these spells in one sitting, because he never cast them before. I'd say he needs at least one day to go through a single new tome before he can be expected to go back to it in order to refresh his memory on some important details that would allow him to cast the spell.
So I propose, prepare one new spell per day max (and as many old ones as necessary). This would also encourage the player to experiment with new spells that otherwise he would never cast, because he'd want to "unlock" them.

Now in regards to weight, I think there is just no way around the need for some bag of holding. Inventory weight management is another problem in RPGs though.

 

[DraQ]

It's an interesting deviation, but the details aren't thought-out.

Actually I did consider that, but didn't want to make the OP any more TL;DR than it already is - anyway, I fully agree - unfamiliar knowledge should take extra time to prepare.
If the game was to be realistically scaled it could even be much longer than a single rest cycle for new spells, so wizards would usually absorb new spells while travelling (by carriage or by boat). In case of knowledge being, for example, encoded in some ancient engravings in some ruined temple of an eldritch cult, then you would expect camping out there for prolonged time while wizard deciphers and copies down knowledge - it could make an interesting scenario with party having to play defensively and deal with all sorts of threats on site.
Still, I think that's already far enough from the core idea to warrant a separate topic.

Say a magician joins your party. He only knew magic missiles before. Now he's given a tome on raising the dead, on teleportation, on summoning and bargaining with a djinn. It's a LOT to absorb. He can't be expected to prepare all these spells in one sitting, because he never cast them before. I'd say he needs at least one day to go through a single new tome before he can be expected to go back to it in order to refresh his memory on some important details that would allow him to cast the spell.
So I propose, prepare one new spell per day max (and as many old ones as necessary). This would also encourage the player to experiment with new spells that otherwise he would never cast, because he'd want to "unlock" them.

Good insight on metagame aspects as well.

Now in regards to weight, I think there is just no way around the need for some bag of holding. Inventory weight management is another problem in RPGs though.

I have so far came to conclusion that:

1. Small inventories are the best. They don't allow deferred managmenet and force quick and rigorous consideration whether something is worth picking, thus preventing inventories getting clogged with random shit and resulting headache when cleaning them out. They also place premium on player housing and personal transportation. Good inventory system should be a source if tension between "I want to pick it up because I may need it" and "I can only carry so much stuff", bad inventory systems are vacuum cleaner simulators.
   
2. Any inventory system should be built around two separate measures of encumbrance - volume (best approximated with grid) and weight. Doubly so if there is much freedom in regards to item manipulation - like picking up containers. Had Larian heeded this wisdom, exploits involving dropping thousandfold telescoping barrels onto unsuspecting targets would not be possible in DOS 1 and 2.

 

[FeelTheRads]

So, the "fixing" is making it so it "makes sense". K, never heard that before.
Fixing everything wrong with RPGs with this one weird trick. Sawyer hates him!

I'm surprised you're not going full "lololo how cum u forget spellz after casting laooloololo".

Also:
http://dmreference.com/SRD/Magic/Magic_Overview/Arcane_Spells/Preparing_Wizard_Spells.htm

For you and others of the "durr dusnt maek sense!!!1"

It makes as much sense as it needs to if you don't equate the preparation with filling up squares with pretty icons in a video game.

 

[Lagi]

in semi_vencian: what prevent from spamming fireball?

=======
for me generic magic to be believable , need to explain: arcane (mage) & divine (cleric) magic separate
arcane: magic user somehow (mumble into air, make gangsta finger signs) manipulate with the "universe fiber" and make things.
divine: trying contact superior to do stuff for him

although the game-mechanic can be same.
===
wizard to cast spell, first need to know some magic school. And its not stuff he can learn during one-night, forest camp. Its character class.
A pyromancer, illusionist, necromancer, Cryomancer (icemage)... each magic school provide list of spells, available to be learn.

each spell is like perk - your wizard know it or not (spend 1 skill point into it).

each magic school/spell list is like skill. Mage need to put skill points into it (Dead magic 4, Fire magic 3). The higher the skill the higher the % for successful spell cast, lesser % for disaster fumble and shorter casting time.

book/scrolls are cheat sheet for wizards. They increase chance for successful cast, but also increase casting time (smart-ass need to peek).
equipping off hand item slot with scroll for faster casting single spell or whole book for many spell to chose from but even longer casting time?
[mage can always rewrite scroll into a book, and tear a page from tome]

spell can be cast without point-buying it, by relaying solely on the papers = incredible long casting time. Successfully casting spell first time from scroll/book/sign on wall can be required to be able to learn it ( spend skill point on it)
===
divine miracle cast chance depend on how in favor cleric is with his god. if he pissed him off or nag to often, god may backfire at him.

why priest have to read and collect books? because there are fancy, imploring songs, that better appeal to gods than :"sorry god i haven't pray for a long time, ehmm... give me fire protection maybe?"

mechanic can be similar, written on scroll prayer give "turn undead", just one priest can not have access to many gods spell lists at the same time

 

[DraQ]

So, the "fixing" is making it so it "makes sense". K, never heard that before.

Well, fixing lack of sense is generally done by restoring sense - what else would you propose?

Fixing everything wrong with RPGs

Citation needed.

I'm surprised you're not going full "lololo how cum u forget spellz after casting laooloololo".

Just for you:
lololo how cum u forget spellz after casting laooloololo

Better?

Also:
http://dmreference.com/SRD/Magic/Magic_Overview/Arcane_Spells/Preparing_Wizard_Spells.htm

For you and others of the "durr dusnt maek sense!!!1"

It makes as much sense as it needs to if you don't equate the preparation with filling up squares with pretty icons in a video game.

It doesn't apply unless said video game tracks all the built in intricacies such as material components, if it doesn't - yes it is just filling squares with pretty icons.

And even if it does, the terminology such as "memorization" exposes the underlying derp. If you memorize something, you can use and reuse it as you see fit, if you prepare something - better have the system accounting for all the intricacies of this preparation, and fluff justifying every single one of them.

Butthurt much?

in semi_vencian: what prevent from spamming fireball?

Another system tracking actual resource expenditure - be it mana, spell points, components or whatever.
Contrast it with (half assed implementation of) Vancian where nothing prevents you from spamming Fireball as many times as you have 3rd lvl slots, if you prepared it enough times. Also well designed system should limit the utility of spamming anything.

for me generic magic to be believable , need to explain: arcane (mage) & divine (cleric) magic separate
arcane: magic user somehow (mumble into air, make gangsta finger signs) manipulate with the "universe fiber" and make things.
divine: trying contact superior to do stuff for him

I generally find that overt divine magic fucks shit up. A setting loses a lot of interesting depth when you can just verify empirically which altars sic lightning on your ass when mooned.

Of course that doesn't mean you should have just one kind of arcane magic or that you shouldn't have clerics. You just shouldn't be able to tell if any of the magic paradigms is actually divine and which (if any) clerics are right.

wizard to cast spell, first need to know some magic school. And its not stuff he can learn during one-night, forest camp. Its character class.
A pyromancer, illusionist, necromancer, Cryomancer (icemage)... each magic school provide list of spells, available to be learn.

each spell is like perk - your wizard know it or not (spend 1 skill point into it).

each magic school/spell list is like skill. Mage need to put skill points into it (Dead magic 4, Fire magic 3). The higher the skill the higher the % for successful spell cast, lesser % for disaster fumble and shorter casting time.

I prefer classless, with just skills that are as orthogonal to attributes as possible. You generally want to maximize orthogonality in your character systems as it ensures maximum number of actually distinct builds and minimizes the number of times player needs to enter the same information in different ways.

book/scrolls are cheat sheet for wizards. They increase chance for successful cast, but also increase casting time (smart-ass need to peek).
equipping off hand item slot with scroll for faster casting single spell or whole book for many spell to chose from but even longer casting time?

I think that books should primarily be source of knowledge and required reference for casting spells you haven't used for a long time. This deals with resale problem and provides wizard with nice way to use STR attribute. Casting from book doesn't seem like a good idea in combat and I would do away with scrolls altogether, (except as functionally identical variant of book). It might be possible to craft charged items (functionally similar to scrolls and wands AND vancian spells, except given definite physical representation), though.

spell can be cast without point-buying it, by relaying solely on the papers = incredible long casting time. Successfully casting spell first time from scroll/book/sign on wall can be required to be able to learn it ( spend skill point on it)

Point buy is needlessly abstract if you already have mechanics for tracking sourced knowledge. Tracking down particular beits of knowledge - be it spells for wizards or techniques for warriors also makes for much better adventure story than bashing goblins until level up. Best keep your point-buy perks limited to necessary abstractions - for example having fire magic skill at appropriate level and fulfilling several other prerequisites might allow you to have meditated long and hard on the nature of fire by spending a perk point, unlocking some special abilities and secondary effects (just not another +x% fire damage, please).

divine miracle cast chance depend on how in favor cleric is with his god. if he pissed him off or nag to often, god may backfire at him.

Actually any kind of magic involving favours from otherworldly beings (which might be most of them) should have a reputation system of some sort bolted underneath. At minimum it should track obvious abuse (like summoning to trap souls), but it could be interesting to have different things curry favours or piss your benefactors off - for example (a crude one) putting out magically initiated orphanage fire might put in disfavour of denizens of plane of fire - not because they are evil, mind you - they wouldn't care that it was an orphanage fire, specifically.

 

[Wayward Son]

Actually sounds quite similar to the Magic Candle's magic system IMO. Especially the only memorizing once to cast multiple times. Given, there are some differences, but it was definitely a similar system that I enjoyed.

 

[Excommunicator]

OK I read it but don't fully understand what problems are being solved here. Isn't this just semantics and presentation at best?

Also if intelligence is a "lost cause" how is it better to make strength and dexterity important to casters instead? So what if we can't 100% simulate low intelligence characters, we can still differentiate between low/average/high intelligence characters and make spellcasting reflective of this.

 

[Falksi]

Stats rarely reflect how I'll play the character, that's why I enjoy systems which allow you to "grow" a character.

Would defo like to see more games which build on the old-school Bethesda system - e.g. first village you enter has several quests, all achieveable by different means, and how you solve them detirmines your stats. Twat the guard? +1 strength pushing you down that path, Charm him? +1 charisma and then in the next village you only get certain option if you have +1 Charisma etc.

Would mean a linear start would be needed, but I'm happy for that.

 

[Tavernking]

Everyone in this thread is fucking retarded and the autism is blowing me away here

 

[Tigranes]

In terms of the OP, basically you're saying this system will solve one problem - making it realistic that wizards take STR as part of their spellcasting, right? I mean, I think so, it sounds like cool flavour, I'm not sure it really matters very much?

In terms of feasibility seems like it can work with a slew of secondary features - e.g. some way to stop the brutes carrying all the spellbooks (in RP terms it seems fun that a powerful mage has a big brute to carry his crap around, but in gameplay terms that would just mean everybody dumps STR on their wizard).

 

[Lagi]

I generally find that overt divine magic fucks shit up. A setting loses a lot of interesting depth when you can just verify empirically which altars sic lightning on your ass when mooned.

Of course that doesn't mean you should have just one kind of arcane magic or that you shouldn't have clerics. You just shouldn't be able to tell if any of the magic paradigms is actually divine and which (if any) clerics are right.

daydreaming, how you want to achieve it? it need's to be a solid mechanic, even if its non deterministic, then it has % for success/failure including many factors.

I prefer classless, with just skills that are as orthogonal to attributes as possible. You generally want to maximize orthogonality in your character systems as it ensures maximum number of actually distinct builds and minimizes the number of times player needs to enter the same information in different ways.

without artificial limits (of class) it is min-maxing. I make fighter with lighting spell and healing alchemy skills, cos its most overpower.

I think that books should primarily be source of knowledge and required reference for casting spells you haven't used for a long time. This deals with resale problem and provides wizard with nice way to use STR attribute.

[not sure what stats you see in your dream-rpg,but..] if STR is responsible for stamina, then if casting spells tires, then it make sens to boost your muscle, to get exhausted later from incinerating green dudes.

hope you get the hint from other: you suggest making str more viable for mages by carry capacity? it's already in every game, still nobody allocate more into wizards body because of that. Idea maybe have some sens, if the paper lifting is required during combat.

in general I like the idea of studying books to change spell-layout. Doesn't it open sensible use for Intelligence? The more IQ the more spell you can remember.

Casting from book doesn't seem like a good idea in combat

heresy,

its boring to put in off-hand always shield

Point buy is needlessly abstract if you already have mechanics for tracking sourced knowledge. Tracking down particular beits of knowledge - be it spells for wizards or techniques for warriors also makes for much better adventure story than bashing goblins until level up.

maybe you're right.
& no exp for bashing goblins, its not sensible (but its fun ). Exp can come from first time spotting or fighting with a creature (no need to kill it).

 

[DraQ]

OK I read it but don't fully understand what problems are being solved here. Isn't this just semantics and presentation at best?

No.

Also if intelligence is a "lost cause" how is it better to make strength and dexterity important to casters instead?

By the virtue of them being enforceable as stats, same with any other stats that can be enforced.

Stats, skills, class (if present) and race can have different relationships with each other. In most systems they largely duplicate each other role which is shit - it means that different parts of the character system simply say the same thing in different ways and that player is forced to input essentially the same information multiple times. It can work to some extent, if you aren't able to freely set all the parameters - for example if your class determines available stat ranges, which in turn limit available skills, but it's lacking and hard to make interesting even in the best of circumstances. Rolling for stats helps, as it's a way to force suboptimality, without levelling the playfield. OTOH you may strive to make different aspects of your character system as orthogonal to one another as possible - for example your race, attributes and any kind of background system determine who you are, your profession (if present) determines what you do, your skills how you do it. This maximizes different build possibilities, while minimizing redundancy. It's a good investment. The only truly interesting stats are those you don't have to take, but can still benefit from. In your typical cRPG intelligence (nevermind the reasons it doesn't work properly anyway) isn't interesting on a wizard, because it's THE obvious trait. Similarly, it tends to not be interesting on a fighter because it usually doesn't do anything meaningful. What is interesting are those points that are left after you saturate your main stat and ignore stats you can't benefit from as they are the only ones that make a difference between same type of builds taken seriously. If all good fighter builds are the same, then any stat allocation system is a waste of time - both player's and developers'.

So what if we can't 100% simulate low intelligence characters, we can still differentiate between low/average/high intelligence characters and make spellcasting reflective of this.

So if player could consistently override strength checks - maybe not all of them, just those most clearly reflecting that a character is strong - strength would still have place in a cRPG?

Stats in a cRPG first and foremost decide what you CANNOT do, so low stat penalties are far more relevant than high stat bonuses - the game where I can do whatever the fuck I please with a single character doesn't need (or get) to be an RPG. And as far as intelligence is concerned there are two ways of playing unintelligent characters - inconsistent one and consistent one. The former is known as "wrong", the latter "dead".
A stat that, when neglected only gives you the option of circumventing mechanics or making non-viable character doesn't have reason to exist.

In terms of the OP, basically you're saying this system will solve one problem - making it realistic that wizards take STR as part of their spellcasting, right? I mean, I think so, it sounds like cool flavour, I'm not sure it really matters very much?

It's not just STR on wizards. It's making STR on wizards useful (and it's arguably the hardest build-attribute combo to justify), removal of derpy vanishing spell tomes (or scrolls) without outright breaking the game, adding universal rationale for wizards not using armour while also providing opportunities for armoured wizards in certain circumstances (on an open battlefield you'll want to prepare your combat spells beforehand and put as much steel as possible on yourself) and extracting the useful parts from Vancian casting.

In terms of feasibility seems like it can work with a slew of secondary features - e.g. some way to stop the brutes carrying all the spellbooks (in RP terms it seems fun that a powerful mage has a big brute to carry his crap around, but in gameplay terms that would just mean everybody dumps STR on their wizard).

Except that you will probably want to put armour on your brute and the armour is ALSO fucking heavy.
And it will only work until for some reason the party is split (and you should definitely play this trick on player sometimes in a PB game) - then who is carrying what really matters.

It's not about barring stuff, it's about presenting interesting tradeoffs.

I generally find that overt divine magic fucks shit up. A setting loses a lot of interesting depth when you can just verify empirically which altars sic lightning on your ass when mooned.

Of course that doesn't mean you should have just one kind of arcane magic or that you shouldn't have clerics. You just shouldn't be able to tell if any of the magic paradigms is actually divine and which (if any) clerics are right.

daydreaming, how you want to achieve it? it need's to be a solid mechanic, even if its non deterministic, then it has % for success/failure including many factors.

Not having explicitly defined divine magic is not mechanics at all, just good worldbuilding.

without artificial limits (of class) it is min-maxing. I make fighter with lighting spell and healing alchemy skills, cos its most overpower.

You can make synergies between as many skills as possible. You can also balance cost and utility in many different ways.

[not sure what stats you see in your dream-rpg,but..] if STR is responsible for stamina, then if casting spells tires, then it make sens to boost your muscle, to get exhausted later from incinerating green dudes.

If anything CON should be stamina as well as resistances/saving throws against all sorts of environmental hazards (but not against direct physical damage).

hope you get the hint from other: you suggest making str more viable for mages by carry capacity? it's already in every game, still nobody allocate more into wizards body because of that.

Because in most games wizards have fuck all to carry. For all they care they can get unarmed and buttnaked and it will only mildly reduce the threat they pose.

in general I like the idea of studying books to change spell-layout. Doesn't it open sensible use for Intelligence? The more IQ the more spell you can remember.

You can have memory for that, or any stat aimed specifically at academic or magical aptitude. Just doen't make it generall intelligence because that's non-enforceable.

heresy,

its boring to put in off-hand always shield

Shield means you can only cast stuff that doesn't require two handed gestures or fine manipulation of objects.
Casting from books if permitted in combat should confer heavy casting speed and defensive penalties, as well as high risk of miscasting - it should be last resort. Of course there is no reason for such limitations when out of danger.

 

[hello friend]

It only stands to reason that if magic is fluffed to be some highly complex thing requiring pages of procedure and notes, and you're learning new ones in a relatively short time frame, you'd need to keep the tomes around as reference. Once the relevant spell book is lost, so is the spell. And if max capacity for castable spells is limited by your strength, more armour = less spellcasting versatility.

To prevent fireball spam, cast off stamina as suggested above and tie stamina to END/CON. Regenerate stamina to full per combat encounter to ease better encounter design and to sidestep the rest spam circus.

To balance wizardry a bit in context of this, introduce a new resource: Study Points. Levelling up increases the study point cap, and allows you to select spells known from among equipped spell books by allocation of these points. An optional way to make this mechanic more fluffy and simulate study is if you select spells known upon next level up from currently available spell books instead. Different spells have different costs in Study Points, and if spells are lost either from selling/discarding the books - optionally giving tomes a durability that can be reduced by damage to caster, esp. fire damage - the Study Points thus freed up will slowly regenerate back up to Study Point cap. Edit: In case it wasn't clear, selected spells will in practice reduce remaining capacity, this capacity only being regained when these spells are no longer being studied, and thus no longer castable. This could actually be a supplemental way to learn fighting techniques as well, to study a manual of martial arts - of course keeping techniques learned even if the manual is lost.

I don't like the idea of tying spell failure chance to DEX. Firstly, because I don't like gesture casting for fluff reasons. This is just a personal preference. More importantly, though, I think the whole concept of spell failure chance is unnecessary. Magic is supposed to be a little different. Wizards shouldn't be fumbling their casts all the time like some idiot until they've pumped up their attributes. So why would a mage want to drop points in DEX? Well, if spell book degradation by damage is a thing, you're certain to want to avoid getting hit to keep your spells as long as possible.

As for avoiding tomes being loaded on a pack horse character it could always be fluffed as mages jealously guarding their secrets. Maybe they will only share them with other adherents of the same magic school? But as has been pointed out, dumping all the literature on another character represents tradeoffs for that character as well, so it doesn't really have to be a problem.

 

[Lagi]

It only stands to reason that if magic is fluffed to be some highly complex thing requiring pages of procedure and notes, and you're learning new ones in a relatively short time frame, you'd need to keep the tomes around as reference. Once the relevant spell book is lost, so is the spell. And if max capacity for castable spells is limited by your strength, more armour = less spellcasting versatility.

reasonable idea.
hand slot equipped scrolls/books are required to cast spell during combat. it would be something like weapons (can be also equivalent of unarmed spell-fighting).
wizards could go akimbo : book+wand, scroll+ orb. during combat book swap for other spells. or switch to lighter scroll for faster magic missile spam.

there could be different quality of papers: better give faster casting time, more spell available, books can be limited in amount of spells to include.
there could be skill [paper maker] to create new, repair, expand with pages spell-books. and skill [ literacy?] to just nicely write new magic signs on papers.

+wizard could be mechanical forced to study their spells during rests, to not went out of practice - forget how to cast particular spells. This would prevent from servant carry. jealous mages is also a nice fluffy explanation.

study points? dex to avoid book hitting?! (not being hit is enough reason for dex)

 

[hello friend]

study points? dex to avoid book hitting?! (not being hit is enough reason for dex)

You need some sort of mechanic to avoid a wizard's effectiveness being entirely at the mercy of itemisation. Otherwise you'll frequently end up with a situation where finding/purchasing a lot of tomes will cause power level to balloon, which is difficult to build appropriate combat encounters around. Alternatively, you could go with spells per level, which is functionally almost identical but doesn't allow for variance in spell cost - unless you're doing the old slots of x level, y level, and z level etc thing which is both more rigid and more cumbersome, while being less compatible with a classless system at the same time - at least compared to using study points or some equivalent for both spells known and martial techniques known.

The reason for reserved study points not being immediately refunded upon spell loss is to avoid gamey hotswapping of spell loadout. It mildly enforces commitment to a build without it being too arduous to take your build in another direction over time if desired.

If the only reason for a mage to take DEX is to avoid being hit, which is not all that different from having a larger hit point pool, you would always always prioritise CON in a stamina based casting system. There needs to be more to DEX than that. Granted, higher Initiative to strike first and more movement points to get in position are both good examples of such.

Paper quality having the effects you suggest doesn't make much sense imo, and repairing a book can't do anything if half the page is torn away. Sure, you can, replace the page, but if you could reproduce what was written on the page from memory then what do you even need the book for? A player might want to spend some cash to make backup copies of important spells, though.

+wizard could be mechanical forced to study their spells during rests, to not went out of practice - forget how to cast particular spells. This would prevent from servant carry.

That would be one way, although if you abstract it to losing spells when tomes/scrolls are not in inventory regular study is already implied.

If you don't intend to ever force, encourage, or allow for a party split a possible thing to do is add up the carry capacity of every party member and just have a group inventory. More games should do this.

 

[Galdred]

If Vancian mages had to really prepare (aka, charge their magic casting device, or start a ritual that would allow them to unleash the spell with a single word, or whatever else you can come up with) their spells instead of forgetting them every day, that would make a lot more sense, so it requires no mechanical change, only a flavor change from the endless learning/forgetting spell cycle.

Regarding inventory management, I think removing the motivation to carry everything to go back to the shopkeeper (which is mundane and boring anyway) would help a lot. I think it could also be addressed by having camp followers, among which one or 2 could be the errand boys. That or just make "useful" magic items way more expensive than mundane ones to the point that no one would bother looting any of the non magic stuff.

 

[Count Grishnak]

Everyone in this thread is fucking retarded and the autism is blowing me away here

aspiring game developer

So you want to make games but you think it is autistic to discuss game mechanics? ok.

 

[Cosmic Bane]

Better yet don't make games for stupid people, if people can't handle having to prepare spells beforehand then fuck them, they can play a thief or fighter instead.

 

[Mebrilia the Viera Queen]

The advise i can always give when you design a pen and paper game and a setting with magic is take in consideration what is magic in that setting:

Is magic something everyone can learn? (in that case the use of scroll or a spell book is necessary since magic is something that a normal person can research)

Is magic something that come out only as innate power in certain individuals? (in that case will be something tied to a raw power certain individuals have.. magic can still be researched but in a more pratical fashion in this system the ammount of magic depends on the raw will of the individual... each time a spell is cast this power get consumed and the caster will be unable to cast when it runs out of power...)

Is magic something dangerous and chaotic? ( in that case a mage could cast spell with a chance the spell backfire creating side effect, harming the caster or creating magic anomaly)

The possibility are countless problem is majority of game adopt the mainstream definition of magic like how it is in D&D.

My personal preference lay in casters needing will to cast spells.. complemented with a discipline system like in vampire the masquerate to determinate effects.. i love less hollywoodesque magic... ((eye lazeers lightning bolt and firerball) and more less evident but more invasive ritualistic magic ((dangerous ritual, entity pacts,lovercraftian stuff..)).

A system like: Will (that determines the power you have at disposition)) + Roll on the discipline related to the spell
A discipline system can overcome the classic mage school system adding for example newer spells depending on the magic traditions you will learn from...

 

[laclongquan]

A fucking proper weight system

Specifically: Money/gold should weight something.

Fantasy condition is not like normal/SF in that money = gold. So at least money = actual weight.

The weightless gold in fantasy games are a big laugh.

It's not the whole problem, but it's the very first step in dealing with it. If you never ever actually acknowledge it, your solutions will always be half-assed and abandon some more times into the games.

 

[Falksi]

A fucking proper weight system

Specifically: Money/gold should weight something.

Fantasy condition is not like normal/SF in that money = gold. So at least money = actual weight.

The weightless gold in fantasy games are a big laugh.

It's not the whole problem, but it's the very first step in dealing with it. If you never ever actually acknowledge it, your solutions will always be half-assed and abandon some more times into the games.

Too many suggestions such as these kill any real fun IMO.

It's a game, it should be realistic yes but not to a point where you have to do more work/micromanagement/etc. than actually enjoy playing it.

Personally I detest how most games handle things such as items & encumberance, as in reality it just makes playing it more of a chore.

It is about how it's done mind - Repairing weapons for example - enhances games like Fallout because it adds to that "scavenger/survival" feel which the game is going for, but in The Witcher 3 it serves absolutely fuck all purpose at all, and just bogs the game down.

 

[laclongquan]

And that's why the solutions are always halfass and incomplete.

Let me illustrate:

If gold =weight, then that mean the inventory you bring into wilderness/combat/dungeon by all means must be free of gold just so you can have spare space for loots. That mean a base in market/trading towns is a must because you need to store them gold. No longer market/trading town is just a place for you to unload your shits, but also a place that you can call home.

And it's just one single branch of improvement in gameplay coming from such a change. There's plenty more.

 

[Mebrilia the Viera Queen]

And that's why the solutions are always halfass and incomplete.

Let me illustrate:

If gold =weight, then that mean the inventory you bring into wilderness/combat/dungeon by all means must be free of gold just so you can have spare space for loots. That mean a base in market/trading towns is a must because you need to store them gold. No longer market/trading town is just a place for you to unload your shits, but also a place that you can call home.

And it's just one single branch of improvement in gameplay coming from such a change. There's plenty more.

A manner to solve this is just scrap the only gold currency and implement..

Copper coins
Silver coins
Gold coins

for huge ammount of money you can always have
Branded iron bars
Credit papers..

So for instance when you have to get something expensive instead to be 1000 generic gold coins... will be just 10 gold coins..

In this manner you can implement weight even for coins.

And please stop to say: It's a videogame...
Is not even an argument... Deph makes rpg better.

 

[laclongquan]

It's fantasy genre, not actually implementing realistic historical genre, yeah. no need for that gold, silver, bronze bullcrap.

As for huge amount, that's what valuable stuffs are for. Ie you keep some ring +1 not because it's useful, but because its value is higher than its weight in gold.