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ORK RPG Framework for Unity is half off - is it worth getting?

Alchemist

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Cleveland Mark Blakemore mentioned this kit in the Grimoire thread (regarding Grimoire 2) - and sounded impressed by it:
ORK RPG Framework II out for Unity now. Had a look at it, it is beyond awesome. All the work I spent several years on in Grimoire is ready to go out of the box. Nothing left for me to do but simply make the game. I really like this kit and now that it is cross-platform I intend to use it for all my RPGs from now on.

It's on a 24-hour sale right now for 50% off ($45 from $90), about 9 hours left: https://www.assetstore.unity3d.com/#/content/14419

I'm tempted to snag it for use in my CRPG vaporware project (started actual coding on it last weekend finally). Anyone have any thoughts on this kit, or experience with it?
 

Galdred

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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
That looks interesting... For my next project, maybe. Does it easily allow grid based combat on a hex grid?
 

Alchemist

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That looks interesting... For my next project, maybe. Does it easily allow grid based combat on a hex grid?
I've been reading up on it and I don't think it has a grid-based combat system built-in (though it does have turn-based battles). Not 100% sure though - since I haven't used it yet. It handles just about everything else though - I imagine a grid movement system could be added.
 

Cleveland Mark Blakemore

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That looks interesting... For my next project, maybe. Does it easily allow grid based combat on a hex grid?
I've been reading up on it and I don't think it has a grid-based combat system built-in (though it does have turn-based battles). Not 100% sure though - since I haven't used it yet. It handles just about everything else though - I imagine a grid movement system could be added.

I bought a grid based kit to go with it and found it easy to integrate.

I'm scared of too many people finding out about this kit and just taking the shortcut to writing great RPGs on Unity. Please stop spreading the news. It evens the playing field too much.

I spent approximately 6-8 hours of work on my test prototype of a Lovecraft game and I tried the grid over my maps at first then switched to a simple dynamic hex with mouse pointer sliding around. I was really astonished at how quickly it came together. I think you could do a quality turn based RPG with this kit in about 0.000000000000001% of the time I spent working on Grim-Wah.

P.S. I worked it out according to the figure I gave above, it turns out it would take 3 minutes and 14 seconds to write a quality AAA RPG title with this kit using Unity.
:troll:
 
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Galdred

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That looks interesting... For my next project, maybe. Does it easily allow grid based combat on a hex grid?
I've been reading up on it and I don't think it has a grid-based combat system built-in (though it does have turn-based battles). Not 100% sure though - since I haven't used it yet. It handles just about everything else though - I imagine a grid movement system could be added.

I bought a grid based kit to go with it and found it easy to integrate.

I'm scared of too many people finding out about this kit and just taking the shortcut to writing great RPGs on Unity. Please stop spreading the news. It evens the playing field too much.

I spent approximately 6-8 hours of work on my test prototype of a Lovecraft game and I tried the grid over my maps at first then switched to a simple dynamic hex with mouse pointer sliding around. I was really astonished at how quickly it came together. I think you could do a quality turn based RPG with this kit in about 0.000000000000001% of the time I spent working on Grim-Wah.

P.S. I worked it out according to the figure I gave above, it turns out it would take 3 minutes and 14 seconds to write a quality AAA RPG title with this kit using Unity.
:troll:

Shhh, don't make me change engine mid game (more like quarter game actually)!
More seriously, given my project (an XCom inspired game in a medieval setting), would it make sense to consider using this engine (the guys at Harebrained Schemes switched to Unity from MOAI mid project, right after their KS, and it doesn't seem to have been a huge setback for them)?
I would need an overland map(that would just be a png) with discreet locations, and some screens for the headquarter management, some heroes and enemy parties moving on the map, then switching to a battle screen using tiled hexagonal map. All of this in 2D iso with paperdoll sprites (ie the sprite are assembled from several parts depending on the equipment they use).
I am currently using MOAI, but rolling my own map editor alone would take a few weeks of work (I am currently using Tiled, but it is a bit too limited).
 
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Alchemist

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Thanks for the input Cleve!

Well I've been digging into and tinkering with all the settings for the past couple of hours trying to decide if I'm going to buy it. It seems really robust in what it can do - but I opted not to get it for now. Partly because I feel I'd miss out on the fun of rolling my own solutions for stuff - this being my first complex game project, and one I want to learn from. Also the default systems they have in place seem heavily geared towards a JRPG type of system, while the system I want to use is more AD&D / 3.5 D&D based. In fact they don't even have a separation of race and class out of the box. I'm sure I could wrangle ORK to do this with enough effort - but somehow feel I'd get a more direct result coding it myself.

Maybe for a different project I'd use it though - as it is a really powerful kit. I found out that Paper Sorcerer uses the older version of ORK, so solid results can definitely be had.
 

Galdred

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I bought a grid based kit to go with it and found it easy to integrate.

Which grid based kit did you pick?
How hard is it to hack a framework to do the things you want him to in unity? This is usually the part I hate with framework, the one where you hit a wall and need to build a battering ram to get through.
And how well would it handle 2D?
Well, I guess I'll have to try it out anyway, and evaluate whether it is worth moving.
 
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J1M

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Had a look at the demo and features on the website of this product. Wasn't terribly impressed. I am interested in this grid discussion though.
 

Cleveland Mark Blakemore

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I bought a grid based kit to go with it and found it easy to integrate.

Which grid based kit did you pick?
How hard is it to hack a framework to do the things you want him to in unity? This is usually the part I hate with framework, the one where you hit a wall and need to build a battering ram to get through.
And how well would it handle 2D?
Well, I guess I'll have to try it out anyway, and evaluate whether it is worth moving.

"Turn-based Grid Toolkit" comes with samples for all kinds of grid layouts.

I would say you have to be a fairly competent C# coder to use ORK. You would at least have to be familiar with most Unity paradigms. I would not describe it as easy as something like RPGMaker although it was inspired by same.

If you want to do 2D isometric with Unity I would recommend the 2D toolkit, the tile editor now supports isometric graphics and prefabs as elements you can drop on the grid. According to ORK support some people have already successfully integrated the kit with the new 2D Unity environment.
 

Keldryn

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I recently stumbled on this plugin and they have this thing going on where a group of people is going to commission the addition of Grid Based Turn -Based combat system.
http://forum.orkframework.com/discu...attle-system-thread-group-buy-proposal#latest

I'm still exploring this plugin, but if it does everything it's advertising to do this looks great. Would save months if not years of development.

I haven't spent a lot of time with ORK yet, but I am quickly realizing what a powerful and comprehensive framework it is. On the surface it looks like it's mostly designed around creating JRPGs -- and I believe that it started out as such, way back when it was Orkashi RPG Kit. But as it stands today, the grid-based tactical combat is the only glaring omission in its functionality.

ORK definitely has a learning curve. The editor panels feel rather cluttered to me (which is unsurprising given how much stuff they handle), and I find some of the naming conventions that he has used to be unintuitive (I'm guessing that siome things have come to be used beyond their original purpose). Referring to all characters handled by the Framework as "Combatants" is a little weird, for example. There will undoubtedly be a few times when you will end up just modifying some elements of your design in order to work better with how ORK wants to do it. And that's the trade-off you make when using a full-featured framework such as this. While ORK is extremely flexible, you may find that the inventory system (for example) doesn't quite work the way that you would have done it.

It does have a plugin system which allows you to add your own custom settings to the editor and have those values saved with the rest of ORK's data. You can also create your own Event Steps.

ORK's event system also allows you to call functions on components, so you can hook into other third-party assets or your own stuff. Pixel Crushers' Dialogue System provides integration with ORK as well.

The primary issue that I see with ORK is that I don't know that it scales well to larger, more complex projects. It uses a single database file for storing all of the project settings and you can't merge changes in source control. This means that you can only have one person editing the ORK database file at a time. It's not a problem for a single developer, and it would be manageable for a small team. I can also see the lists of various combatants, items, abilities, etc getting unwieldly in larger projects. For example, you can define Ability Types and filter by Ability Type in the main Abilities list, but when you are assigning an Ability to an event, an item use, etc, you get the whole list. Again, not a big deal for many games, but I wouldn't want to try to recreate Baldur's Gate II with it. EDIT: Never mind; in the Editor Settings you can check a box for each type of data list to have it sorted into sub-menus for all of the selection pop-ups. I stand corrected.

That being said, unless you've got a team of 5 or 6 people with a couple of dedicated programmers, you should definitely consider ORK. It will likely make the difference between spending the first year coding your basic gameplay systems and spending the first year actually designing the damn game. In this respect it has a lot in common with modding, except you get to define how all of the game mechanics work.

I'll be going in on the tactical combat group-buy fairly soon.
 
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Davaris

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I had a brief look at both and decided to go with plyGame. Dunno if ORK is better, but what I can say about plyGame is its dead simple. Cleve did a review where he said there's no source, but the only source that is not available is the Blox component. You can build the source of the RPG part yourself as dlls, I know because I have done it.

If this guy makes these addons it could be great. However you would have to lobby him on what makes a proper turn based kit, as he probably won't be making it grid based. I think it would be easier to just integrate MapNav2 yourself.
http://forum.plyoung.com/t/new-game-kits-more-plykit-series/2349

Can't say much more than that, as I haven't tried to make changes to how it works, like integrating another pathing solution or making it possible to control more than one creature. I will be trying that soon though.

I had a look at "Turn-based Toolkit" and the code base was a mess. Its more of a game project, which makes it harder to integrate into your own game. MapNav2 on the other hand is a library, you can call from your game. More work to do to set up TB combat, but it would be easier to integrate into existing code.

Edit:
Actually the pathing solution I will try to integrate first is Apex, since Apex is grid based I want to see if it could be made to work in a TB capacity. I also want to see if I could use Blox2 with a couple of other plugins and make my own engine, since Blox2 is far superior to Plygame's Blox.
 
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Hellwalker

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I'm following the ORK game tutorial, it's f*n huge I have been spending 2 hours a day for a week now and only 2/3 of the way through. With tons of features, but I really don't love the interface and I'm not to thrilled about full RPG Engine thing, I would prefer to take care of UI etc stuff myself, and have classes that I can use and setup myself without having to rely on ORK Interface. Setting up things takes a lot of time and it's subpar compared to Unity Inspector. But it has hugely positive feedback which gives me hope it's a tool that can help you complete the game.
Plyengine seems to have released a free version called UNIRPG. I guess that's worth checking out to get a feel for PlyGame.
If you have more tools you have tried out with Unity that might be useful for TB wRPG please share, this is very helpful.
 

Keldryn

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With tons of features, but I really don't love the interface and I'm not to thrilled about full RPG Engine thing, I would prefer to take care of UI etc stuff myself, and have classes that I can use and setup myself without having to rely on ORK Interface. Setting up things takes a lot of time and it's subpar compared to Unity Inspector.

ORK is full of things that make me think "that's now how I would have done it.". That's always the trade off when you use a framework created by someone else versus rolling your own. It takes some time to get used to the editor and how everything is set up in it.

You don't have to do everything through ORK, as it has an API that you can call from your own code, plus you can call functions on components through the event system. That does require some coding, but still a lot less that implementing everything that ORK does on your own.

There are a few posts on the ORK forum about only using parts of it. However, it is more flexible than it might appear at first. My approach is to use ORK's features as long as possible; if I reach a point where I would need to make major compromises to my design, then I would look at other solutions. So far, I can tell that the camera and player input will get replaced (but even the author suggests that you might want to do so), and Pixel Crushers' Dialogue System will replace ORK's native dialogue functionality.

As for other tools that you might want to look at, there is the classic combo of Playmaker and Behavior Designer, aling with Pixel Crushers' Dialogue System For Unity, Opsive's Third Person Controller, and Inventory Pro. I believe that all of these tools now integrate well with each other.

However, there is still the issue of a combat system, and there isn't currently anything on the Asset Store that gives you a decent turn based tactical combat system. Turn Based Toolkit is closest, but it is designed with smaller, contained battle maps in mind -- like FF Tactics or Fire Emblem. Adapting it to an RPG with large area maps (Fallout, ToEE, etc) would be a lot of work. MapNav2 would handle pathfinding on a grid, but you'd need to write all of the turn-based code yourself.

Each of the tools that I mentioned above are better at their specific tasks than are the equivalent ORK systems. But you're already talking $300+ worth of tools here and you haven't touched on RPG systems, combat, art, etc.
 

Hellwalker

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Thanks, I'm still learning ORK, Basically I want to first gain good overview of it's features. Then write a simple "Test Scenario", like one quests with several outcomes and several player classes and basic AI. To see if the tool I'll be using will be scale-able for a full game.

Basically what i would love to avoid to a huge degree is anything like a Playmaker. I just hate using visual nodes for simple stuff that can be done with 2 lines of code. The painful amount of routine involved in systems like that is just too much. I love visual nodes for dialogue/AI etc. But writing whole game in that would kill me.
My goal is not to avoid coding in a sense like "I'm an artist who does not want to learn programming". I already know programming to an intermediate level I'd say. The idea is more that I want to focus more of my time on creating and polishing quality content for the game(quests, combat, dialogue, world). If I can get a good camera system/quest engine for 50$ that's perfect. It is one more feature I will not have to spend month's developing on. My initial goal was to scout for quality plugins like that and then combine them together, write the missing aspects and get the game Demo rolling faster.

But then I came along ORK, RPG Kit, Plygame and frameworks like that, were ORK looks most supported and has a very good user feedback. And it is very hard to tell if they are heavenly gift or a tricky trap. I realize Using full framework will mean I can't have the whole process going my way, but I'm fine with that to a degree. My background in engines is more Game/Level Design so I don't have typical programmer impulses of "My way, or Highway". But I do like to have big control over gameplay and user experience. Since ORK is more geared towards JRPG It's very hard to tell even 2/3 through huge game tutorial whether it's really viable for WRPG games. I'm hoping I can finish tutorials soon and create that test scenario to see if it is flexible enough to support WRPG game with it's structure and aesthetics. I really don't want my game to feel like a JRPG in any aspect, big or small. (Not a fan at all).

The system is promising, and I think even if it turns out not to be useful for me, it seems worth investigating. The chance to start actually making content for my game, instead of loosing next year for building basic game stuff is very tempting. But if I have to make half JRPG/ Half WRPG then screw it, I'll roll up my sleeves and punch through everything I need to do, to make the game I want to make.
 
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Davaris

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Plyengine seems to have released a free version called UNIRPG. I guess that's worth checking out to get a feel for PlyGame.

Just so you know, its not a cut down version of plyGame, its the RPG engine he sold before plyGame. He learned a lot about RPG engines since that one, so I don't think there would be much in it that's applicable. If you want to get a feel for what its like to work in plyGame, have a look at his playlist starting with the promo video. If only he could be convinced to make a TB add-on for it. It would probably take him no time at all.
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLuaBtUXEKcdJCbNoDg0tJ9TUdkNRDrKlI


If you have more tools you have tried out with Unity that might be useful for TB wRPG please share, this is very helpful.

I think plyGame and ORK are all there is for RPGs. Pixel Crushers have supposedly made some good addons for both kits, but I haven't tried them.
 
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Keldryn

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Thanks, I'm still learning ORK, Basically I want to first gain good overview of it's features. Then write a simple "Test Scenario", like one quests with several outcomes and several player classes and basic AI. To see if the tool I'll be using will be scale-able for a full game.

That's basically the stage I'm at with it, too.

My goal is not to avoid coding in a sense like "I'm an artist who does not want to learn programming". I already know programming to an intermediate level I'd say. The idea is more that I want to focus more of my time on creating and polishing quality content for the game(quests, combat, dialogue, world).

Yeah, I wouldn't want to make a whole game in Playmaker, either. Some jobs it's the right tool for, others it isn't. I've been programming professionally for 15 years and I don't want to spend a bunch of time building a game from scratch -- I simply don't have the leisure time for that. I see ORK as something that could make the difference between finishing a game and dropping the project after a year because I'm not getting anywhere.

But then I came along ORK, RPG Kit, Plygame and frameworks like that, were ORK looks most supported and has a very good user feedback.

I've heard of Plygame, but I'm not familiar with it. I just took a quick look and there are definitely aspects that look better than ORK; it certainly looks more polished. But it does seem oriented towards single-character action RPGs; not sure how difficult it is to change that.

Since ORK is more geared towards JRPG It's very hard to tell even 2/3 through huge game tutorial whether it's really viable for WRPG games. I'm hoping I can finish tutorials soon and create that test scenario to see if it is flexible enough to support WRPG game with it's structure and aesthetics. I really don't want my game to feel like a JRPG in any aspect, big or small. (Not a fan at all).

The tutorial certainly makes it look more geared towards JRPGs. I recommend doing the whole tutorial first without making changes, but when I was done the first thing I did was to get rid of all the battle camera movements and enable camera control during battle. That does a lot right there to tone down some of the JRPG feel. I'm going to look and see if there is an alternative to the Battle Menu, as that's another bug part if the JRPG feel.

Outside of combat though, there's nothing preventing it from creating a WRPG type of game.
 

Keldryn

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This is what I've got the combat looking like now, after spending a few hours building on what I did in the tutorials.

OW6M6oU.png


The characters' battle animations are all working, and the camera can rotate and zoom freely. I'm still using the built-in ORK camera, but I'm going to replace it with a better one. I haven't done anything with the UI yet, so it still looks the same. The wizard guy has a different character class than the main player (the fighter chick) with a different ability progression.
 

Hellwalker

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Cool, please post about your progress. UI challenge would be probably to make it context sensitive towards enemy. So instead of choosing action then target. You click on target and get action list.
 

Keldryn

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Are the models custom?

Unfortunately, no. Character art is beyond my abilities. The Goblin is a free model from the Asset Store, the Female Warrior is a very nice but somewhat out of date model that I've found very useful for prototyping. The wizard guy is a model from Arteria3D.

I haven't figured out a way to get a context sensitive menu by clicking on a target. I may have to ask about it on the forum. That's one thing in ORK that does rub me the wrong way -- the way that you interact with objects in the world.

I added icons to the action menu:

HZ1Kq8b.jpg


Oh, and I also replaced the ORK demo scenes with something nicer, as you might have noticed. (Since I'm focused in evaluating ORK, these are two of the example scenes from 3DForge's Village Exteriors pack)

oMaXbtf.jpg


Note the cubic "underpants" quest item is still there, as is that dumb Save Sphere -- which is not necessary, as it is easy to put a Save Game option on the menu... Just haven't done it yet.

One thing that became apparent as soon as I put in the more complex level geometry is that I needed to switch everyone over to using a NavMesh Agent so that they wouldn't keep trying to walk through fences. Doing this messed with the player's walk animation... I'm sure I've run into that before but can't remember what the problem was. The goblins were never animating while walking around outside of combat, but at least their battle animations work:

l4CCLdF.jpg


Added character portraits that sometimes display properly:

dKigTRh.jpg


I need to play around with the new UI system, as I fucking hate these GUI boxes... It's trial and error getting things in the right spot.

Also replaced the default camera with one that can feely rotate and pan (keyboard or mouse), including during combat:

cyoaDrY.jpg


I may check out Plygame a bit and see how it compares. I like that it integrates with more things. I would actually prefer it if ORK didn't orchestrate everything at the highest level the way it does, and was more of a module that worked alongside others.
 
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Hellwalker

Animmal
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Oh for characters and animations during prototype check this - https://www.mixamo.com/
You can have a character fully animated and rigged in 5 minutes and you don't need to know a thing about animations.
Just create a char in a Skyrim char creation type thing, pick animations and download. It's free for the time being.
 

Keldryn

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Oh for characters and animations during prototype check this - https://www.mixamo.com/
You can have a character fully animated and rigged in 5 minutes and you don't need to know a thing about animations.
Just create a char in a Skyrim char creation type thing, pick animations and download. It's free for the time being.

Trust me, it's never that simple when it comes to animations -- especially if you're using Mecanim. I've used Mixamo models before but I skipped using their animations and imported them with Humanoid skeletons so they would work with the character controller system that I was using (which included a good assortment of Mecanim animations).

I think that the Legacy animation system might actually be a better fit for a turn-based game as it gives you more control over how animations are played than does Mecanim. It feels like Mecanim was designed for fluid real-time movement and transitions, especially if you're using root motion. ORK supports both, but Legacy seems to work better with it. Mecanim does not provide any way if determining if an animation is finished playing; you need to rely on the Animator state machine to handle that.

I've got the whole library of animated models from Arteria3D to work with, so I'm covered there for the time being.
 
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Davaris

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I may check out Plygame a bit and see how it compares. I like that it integrates with more things. I would actually prefer it if ORK didn't orchestrate everything at the highest level the way it does, and was more of a module that worked alongside others.

Something that might turn you off, depending on if or where you plan to sell your game:
http://forum.plyoung.com/t/windows-store-support/2494

Skip the tutes on making interfaces using Blox, as the result is messy. There's a demo HUD you can use that has inventory, character sheet, etc, that uses C#. It can be loaded using a blox. See the directory with sample_ui.unitypackage
 

Keldryn

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