KickStarter Pantheon - (Brad "EQ" McQuaid's new MMO)

[belowmecoldhands]

At least the christian family left the team. I really hope this game gets made but I'm not counting on it. From what I know it sounds like I could spend a couple of thousand hours playing it.

Maybe at some points the old style of MMORPGs will make a comeback like single player cRPGs seem to be doing now.

Maybe I am being too optimistic, maybe the desire for something other than shit is clouding my perception, but... I think this may come to fruition. When they started the Kickstarter, they had really nothing. They had some concept art and a basic zone model of an area. That is it. In that time, they have built a fully functional server/client system, made several zones, added numerous mechanics and content. while EXTREMELY rough, the game has made some major leaps in development. So, it gives me some bit of hope. Heck, even if it is another Vanguard mess, I will take it... and this time... I will covet it for all its faults.

I mean, to really appreciate the possibilities here, you have to read the discussion in the forums. The majority of the players there are "Old School" and the discussions revolve around making the game difficult, vast in content/mechanics, open and dangerous. If they meet even 1/2 of what they are attempting, the game will be miles over the heads of anything out there. No, I am not talking about "next gen" or the game being "better" (pointless subjective argument), but that it will be something that is actually a game, meant to play as a game, designed for people who like playing games, who want the challenge, the effort, and failure/success of such. The WoW crowd will absolutely hate the game, they will despise everything about it. They will see it a waste of time, redundant, more effort than it is worth, unPC, etc... That in my eyes is a success because everything that crowd wants and desires is the opposite of what I want.

But then...

Brad could fuck it up. It really is a gamble. Time will tell.

I think you and the WoW audience aren't completley opposite. Xenich, what little I know about you leads me to believe we've been on similar roads. I've hated on the WoW crowd too. I play Wurm Online! It's hard to be more opposite to WoW than that, without playing a version of Wurm Online that's more Pve-centric than Sandbox-centric. Despite that there's a lot in common between me and a WoW player. I'm not afterall averse to all modern features in games.

On the topic of death penalties and loss, it's tough because I'm almost certainly minority. In Wurm Online, there're corpse runs and you lose skills when you die. Most of your items stay on your corpse. That's one of the reasons I play Wurm Online, as well as playing on the Pvp servers. The element of being able to lose what you have and having to stay on your toes, so you don't die or get lost, because death or being lost means something, is what makes the experience so compelling. And yet so many players do not share this with me. A lot of players in Wurm Online might agree, but just as many will think they like Wurm Online for a different reason, and will adamantly disagree. Hell, even the players on the PvP severs won't all agree on this.

I think Brad will try to find a common ground, especially as the game grows older and reality sets in. I fully expect some amount of instances, cross-server grouping, ooc regen, quest hubs or golden paths, in-game maps and radars which show dynamic location information and so on. To not expect at least some of those things isn't going to fly with today's gaming population, even if there's a handful of people - me included - who'd play it.

I want to add, there're a few things I"m hoping tosee in Pantheon:
1) More adult-oriented, with much less sexism - By this I mean the female models aren't half-naked. Woman should be depicted clothed and armored as they would be expected to be in a halfway-realistic environment. Men the same. I also think there should be enough customizations on the model, so that players can bastardize their good lucks or perfect fit body if desired. And no cartoony s***! As well, since this is adult-oriented, don't shy away from controversial stories or themes. I read a lot and hte worst stories are either cliche or TOLD to you. The best have meanings which're unclear and they SHOW you, never tell.
2) A way to pause the game - This one isn't something I've seen others bring up in all the years since I first suggested it. I've soloed a lot and grouped a lot in differnet games, and the experiences have led me to this. One of hte key reasons I solo in MMO's is because I much prefer the ease with which I can go /afk at my own convenience. Grouping, especially in EQ's case, demanded so much more time commitment. Other group members needed you at your keyboard. This is true of many MMO's in recent times, not just old-time EQ. And in soloing AND grouping situation there's a need for a means to quickly /afk without getting yourself killed. For this, I'd refer to the EQ skill Feign Death. The tricky part is not allowing quick afkin' to be exploited. Some balance has to be found between quick painless afks and yet tight gameplay which requires you to play well.
* in EQ's case, spontaneously going afk could cause a wipe or cause the group members to simply log off because of you. Back then it sometimes required a good lot of time to find a new member, so if one wasn't reliable, sometimes everybody left.

Sometime I'd like to devote a whole thread to How to pause a MMO?

 

[Xenich]

I think Brad will try to find a common ground, especially as the game grows older and reality sets in. I fully expect some amount of instances, cross-server grouping, ooc regen, quest hubs or golden paths, in-game maps and radars which show dynamic location information and so on. To not expect at least some of those things isn't going to fly with today's gaming population, even if there's a handful of people - me included - who'd play it.

If he does any of that, it will be a 180 to what he claimed would not be in the game. To me, that it is worse than claiming from the start that you will consider it. So, he does that, I won't bother with the game as it will be yet another mainstream waste of time.

I want to add, there're a few things I"m hoping tosee in Pantheon:
1) More adult-oriented, with much less sexism - By this I mean the female models aren't half-naked. Woman should be depicted clothed and armored as they would be expected to be in a halfway-realistic environment. Men the same. I also think there should be enough customizations on the model, so that players can bastardize their good lucks or perfect fit body if desired. And no cartoony s***! As well, since this is adult-oriented, don't shy away from controversial stories or themes. I read a lot and hte worst stories are either cliche or TOLD to you. The best have meanings which're unclear and they SHOW you, never tell.

I really don't care about this. Its more political than anything and means nothing to me. Women being scantly clad or fully clothed, it has no affect on my evaluation. I am a mechanics person, put up stick men and if the game is solid, I will be happy.

2) A way to pause the game - This one isn't something I've seen others bring up in all the years since I first suggested it. I've soloed a lot and grouped a lot in differnet games, and the experiences have led me to this. One of hte key reasons I solo in MMO's is because I much prefer the ease with which I can go /afk at my own convenience. Grouping, especially in EQ's case, demanded so much more time commitment. Other group members needed you at your keyboard. This is true of many MMO's in recent times, not just old-time EQ. And in soloing AND grouping situation there's a need for a means to quickly /afk without getting yourself killed. For this, I'd refer to the EQ skill Feign Death. The tricky part is not allowing quick afkin' to be exploited. Some balance has to be found between quick painless afks and yet tight gameplay which requires you to play well.
* in EQ's case, spontaneously going afk could cause a wipe or cause the group members to simply log off because of you. Back then it sometimes required a good lot of time to find a new member, so if one wasn't reliable, sometimes everybody left.

Sometime I'd like to devote a whole thread to How to pause a MMO?

ITs a pain, but I don't see a problem with this. Welcome to gaming 101. I mean, I worked 60 hours a week during EQ, raidied, etc... and complaining about a pause for game play was the least of my concerns. This IMO is a casual request and puts the requests on the wrong path.

 

[Norfleet]

The tricky part is not allowing quick afkin' to be exploited. Some balance has to be found between quick painless afks and yet tight gameplay which requires you to play well.

I'm not really visualizing how AFK/logout can be exploited in an environment where there isn't any PvP concern. The onlytime quick-logout is really desirable is in an environment where people will kill you and this will actually hurt. If being killed doesn't hurt, and there is no one trying to kill you that you can logout and wait out, then disappearing in mid-battle isn't really a loss to anyone but yourself: You just remain as you are until you login, whereupon whatever monster that was going to kill you is still there and kills you, as the AI will never get tired or bored and wander off. If being killed doesn't carry any serious consequences because there is no perma-death and no player waiting to loot your corpse, then so what?

 

[belowmecoldhands]

The tricky part is not allowing quick afkin' to be exploited. Some balance has to be found between quick painless afks and yet tight gameplay which requires you to play well.

I'm not really visualizing how AFK/logout can be exploited in an environment where there isn't any PvP concern. The onlytime quick-logout is really desirable is in an environment where people will kill you and this will actually hurt. If being killed doesn't hurt, and there is no one trying to kill you that you can logout and wait out, then disappearing in mid-battle isn't really a loss to anyone but yourself: You just remain as you are until you login, whereupon whatever monster that was going to kill you is still there and kills you, as the AI will never get tired or bored and wander off. If being killed doesn't carry any serious consequences because there is no perma-death and no player waiting to loot your corpse, then so what?

I haven't met an mmo where there weren't afk issues. I really think things belongs in a different thread though.

I still hope to see it, as long as it doesn't make games feel too safey.

 

[belowmecoldhands]

I think Brad will try to find a common ground, especially as the game grows older and reality sets in. I fully expect some amount of instances, cross-server grouping, ooc regen, quest hubs or golden paths, in-game maps and radars which show dynamic location information and so on. To not expect at least some of those things isn't going to fly with today's gaming population, even if there's a handful of people - me included - who'd play it.

If he does any of that, it will be a 180 to what he claimed would not be in the game. To me, that it is worse than claiming from the start that you will consider it. So, he does that, I won't bother with the game as it will be yet another mainstream waste of time.

Well I don't know what to tell you. You should prepare for the inevitable news it'll have some of those things. I can almost guarantee you in the first few months of release it'll either have some of those or something which resolves the underlying issues which caused those to be popular. Right now Pantheon is in the first alpha and Brad isn't going to talk about these thigns much because his supporters are not friend to it. But any game maker making an MMO will have these things on their mind.

What I think is a game can a have some of those things and still have C&C. It can still be tough. For example, instances do make the world, in my mind, feel more stale, BUT there can still be lots of open world where players meet. A few instances here and there won't kill the game. It's not an all or nothing sort of thing with me. However, I am still choicey. I lean towards wanting C&C and/or some negative consequences. I like the tension it brings. But most gamers just arne't like myself. They don't like to walk a narrow path with a cliff here or a trap there. No matter what I play, it's goign to favor them somehow. Even Wurm Online, which gives me a lot of what I want, is still mostly made up of non-pvpers. They don't want the risk of losing stuff. Their server maps are flatter and more populated. The vast majority of gamers in this industry want assured safety. I have to compromise.

YUears and years of comprosing has taught me to just anticipate some things. That's why I said Pantheon will have things you don't want. I'm sure there's more behind the scenes which makes me say this.

And despite all that blather I'll still play it if it comes through. I really want it to. I think it's part of me rooting for the underdog. Lots seem to want to make Brad jokes or count the imperfections in the demos for laughs. Me, I know hhat it's like to be underdog and/or the odd one in the crowd. And for that I hope the game has some success. And there're more people like me showing up, as long as Pantheon keeps on. I'll play regardless of what happens. Rain, shine, whatever!

 

[belowmecoldhands]

I get a Vanguard feel from this, can only end badly.

I remember the Vanguard beta and the cesspool of self entitled pricks those forums managed to gather, mentioning WoW would get you hate mail in your inbox.

And I ̶h̶o̶p̶e̶ pray that doesn't happen. I don't want WoW, but neither is s*** like that respectable or desired.

 

[Xenich]

I think Brad will try to find a common ground, especially as the game grows older and reality sets in. I fully expect some amount of instances, cross-server grouping, ooc regen, quest hubs or golden paths, in-game maps and radars which show dynamic location information and so on. To not expect at least some of those things isn't going to fly with today's gaming population, even if there's a handful of people - me included - who'd play it.

If he does any of that, it will be a 180 to what he claimed would not be in the game. To me, that it is worse than claiming from the start that you will consider it. So, he does that, I won't bother with the game as it will be yet another mainstream waste of time.

Well I don't know what to tell you. You should prepare for the inevitable news it'll have some of those things. I can almost guarantee you in the first few months of release it'll either have some of those or something which resolves the underlying issues which caused those to be popular. Right now Pantheon is in the first alpha and Brad isn't going to talk about these thigns much because his supporters are not friend to it. But any game maker making an MMO will have these things on their mind.

What I think is a game can a have some of those things and still have C&C. It can still be tough. For example, instances do make the world, in my mind, feel more stale, BUT there can still be lots of open world where players meet. A few instances here and there won't kill the game. It's not an all or nothing sort of thing with me. However, I am still choicey. I lean towards wanting C&C and/or some negative consequences. I like the tension it brings. But most gamers just arne't like myself. They don't like to walk a narrow path with a cliff here or a trap there. No matter what I play, it's goign to favor them somehow. Even Wurm Online, which gives me a lot of what I want, is still mostly made up of non-pvpers. They don't want the risk of losing stuff. Their server maps are flatter and more populated. The vast majority of gamers in this industry want assured safety. I have to compromise.

YUears and years of comprosing has taught me to just anticipate some things. That's why I said Pantheon will have things you don't want. I'm sure there's more behind the scenes which makes me say this.

And despite all that blather I'll still play it if it comes through. I really want it to. I think it's part of me rooting for the underdog. Lots seem to want to make Brad jokes or count the imperfections in the demos for laughs. Me, I know hhat it's like to be underdog and/or the odd one in the crowd. And for that I hope the game has some success. And there're more people like me showing up, as long as Pantheon keeps on. I'll play regardless of what happens. Rain, shine, whatever!

Problem is belowmecoldhands, I have seen this all before, been there, done that. This whole game of compromise is nothing new. You could make a VH1 episode on the progression of MMOs and how they sold out to mainstream to result in what they are today. The fact is, if they sale to the casual concepts, this game will be like all the others. Now I won't be as egotistical to state that they will fail because they attend to the "accessible", to the "mainstream". I honestly don't know the future as it concerns such. I can say that every game that attends to such that isn't WoW and not a monetary gimmick, is a failure.

As I said, I won't play this game if they "compromise". To be blunt, fuck that! I will not compromise with fucking sludge who are the fault of all gaming decline. Fuck them, may they burn in hell, may they suffer a 1000 deaths! If it is to be them that are the future, fine..., but don't expect me to deal with them, compromise with them, etc... Either I fucking kill them.... or the kill me. There is NO room for comrpomise with those people. Fuck them! Die... piss off... etc...

 

[Xenich]

I get a Vanguard feel from this, can only end badly.

I remember the Vanguard beta and the cesspool of self entitled pricks those forums managed to gather, mentioning WoW would get you hate mail in your inbox.

And I ̶h̶o̶p̶e̶ pray that doesn't happen. I don't want WoW, but neither is s*** like that respectable or desired.

Really? in all the damage those fucking worthless scrubs have caused? I mean, back then in Vanguard, during those days... well... while there was objectionable aspects of play that could be contested between WoW, WoW release was NOTHING like WoW is today. I mean, I can understand the BS of the pure hatred and conflict between WoW and the Vanguard players of that time, but... these days? There is NO compromise between WoW players (of today) and that of the focus of Pantheon. None, nada, ZILCH! Why? Because they don't get it. they have grown up with a system of play that is completely alien to EQ of old. They won't get it, AT ALL. All that can be done by Pantheon and their following is to support old school AND "Politely" inform the "new school" players of various elements of "old school" play, to which... if they do not accept, well.... the next step is to "politely" tell them to fuck off. Seriously, I have seen this MANY times before. If they accept the influence of "new school" thinking, they will end up with modern MMO games. Fuck that and fuck them if they sell out to that shit. I will quit gaming before I will be subject to another fucking pathetic hello kitty retarded mainstream MMO. Fuck them, and fuck everyone who wants that.

 

[belowmecoldhands]

There's no inbetween with you? Your statement below is all black and white (navy blue & white):

If they accept the influence of "new school" thinking, they will end up with modern MMO games.

So if I add an instance to my game, even if it's just one instance players will only do once in their whole playing life, then my MMO will go down that slipper slope and become like WoW? (what are you afraid of?)

Same goes for other things. You can have some ooc regen and not huge amounts (although downtime of this sort is hard to argue in-support of). Christ, EQ in 1999 had ooc regen in the guise of sitting down, it was just too slow by most accounts. EQ had fast travel, but it required druids/wizards and/or dying and/or a couple rare teleporters. EQ had only 4% experience loss (and no corpse run!) after death IF you got a cleric rez. You could be invulernable in EQ IF you had divine aura casted on yourself. You could solo and group almost equally well if you were a shaman or magician, unlike warriors or rogues whom sucked at soloing.

Ccomeon. Get real. A little cake doesn't ruin it unless you overdo it. My take is Pantheon will be fine if it doesn't indulge on these things. It'll cave and add more of these things as it gets older, but that's what you get with every MMO.

And just to make sure we're on the same page, when I say "these things" what I mean are downtime elimination, instances, insta-grouping server-wide or cross-server, simplistic itemization/management, low C&C, prohibiting players from falling off cliffs or slipping onto a horde of hungry spikes, scaling or restricting the level of monsters so they're similar to the player's level, enforced fairness in pvp, linear or otherwise flat and simple environments (to reduce navigation confusion or frustration), homogenized classes (everybody does everything), etc. In general, the mainstream is filled to hte limit with assurances of safety and accessibility for everyone. If you can agree those things are reminiscent of the mainstream then we're on the same page. Oh and of course I forgot to add: cartoony or animey art or themes to appeal to the kids and grown ups (who for some reason like that s***).

I just think you can have some of that and the game can still be tight/intense, challenging and fun. WoW players might not crave it, but some players who're not at the far end of extreme will. And because it's not at the far end of extreme it'll have higher subscription numbers because more people are playing. It won't be what -I- want perfectly, but it'll be enough.

 

[Sergiu64]

Same goes for other things. You can have some ooc regen and not huge amounts (although downtime of this sort is hard to argue in-support of). Christ, EQ in 1999 had ooc regen in the guise of sitting down, it was just too slow by most accounts. EQ had fast travel, but it required druids/wizards and/or dying and/or a couple rare teleporters. EQ had only 1% experience loss after death IF you got a rez. You could be invulernable in EQ IF you had divine aura casted on yourself. You could solo and group almost equally well if you were a shaman or magician, unlike warriors or rogues whom sucked at soloing.

I guess that's the problem, people are all over the scale as to how hardcore they want things. With majority of the people way in the casual category.

From the list of the things you outlined as "bad" as far as original EQ goes I find that there are some that I wouldn't mind that much. For example Fast Travel being limited to only a few classes appeals to me. It encouraged social interaction, you're a warrior and need to get across the globe? Guess what, you better make friends with a Wizard or a Druid, or be ready to pay up. OOC regen bad? Well, maybe you should be friends with an Enchanter and/or Beastlord. The rez thing was painful, but that's what clerics are for, and hell, one of the few ways Paladin's shined.

I get how most people would hate those mechanics, hell I don't know if I personally want to go through them again or have time for them but at the same time Xenich is right in that it's what made EQ what it is.

Personally I think the world has moved on and I don't think there's enough demand for this MMO to be successful, but I definitely don't mind seeing someone try to develop something for that particular niche market. Maybe I'll be surprised. /shrug

 

[Xenich]

There's no inbetween with you? Your statement below is all black and white:

If they accept the influence of "new school" thinking, they will end up with modern MMO games.

So if I add an instance to my game, even if it's just one instance players will only do once in their whole playing life, then my MMO will go down that slipper slope and become like WoW?

Brad has said instances will be in the game from day 1, but will be sparse and special when done. Instances aren't a major problem imo, but they can be a problem is you use them as WoW does. People who want old school, want many of the older aspects of play. They want to run into people in dungeons, camp and explore with them, etc... You don't get that with instances and city hubs with group finder.

Same goes for other things. You can have some ooc regen and not huge amounts (although downtime of this sort is hard to argue in-support of). Christ, EQ in 1999 had ooc regen in the guise of sitting down, it was just too slow by most accounts.

Yes, downtime is a needed component. Brad even talks about this. The "new school" mentality that you have to be doing something every second of play or the game is boring? Arcadish WoW like games ----> that way. Now that is not to say it must have downtime as long as EQ, but there MUST be downtime or you miss the point. Downtime created need. You had special classes and race abilities that reduced downtime. This gave variety in class selection and race. It promoted community (reliance on others to speed up downtime, etc...). If you think not, you are missing the point.

EQ had fast travel, but it required druids/wizards and/or dying and/or a couple rare teleporters.

Yep, non-combat abilities that were special to certain classes. You want to be abel to port around? Fine... play a class that can or get to know someone who will do it for you, or walk it, your choice. If you think all classes should have easy fast travel, again... missing the point.

EQ had only 1% experience loss after death IF you got a rez. You could be invulernable in EQ IF you had divine aura casted on yourself. You could solo and group almost equally well if you were a shaman or magician, unlike warriors or rogues whom sucked at soloing.

Yes, some classes provide benefit and bonus. Invulnerability, temporary, but if you also remember that you also know that clerics weren't great at DPS and had a very hard time soloing (almost non-existant in most cases). Some classes could solo well, others not at all. I was a monk, I could solo 25-30 (36 if you counted using instill doubt to fear kite), but after that. I grouped. I became good at forming and running groups. I could pull a group together in 10 mins or less. So what though? If you are going to say "well, all classes need to be balanced so they can all solo", well.. again... you are missing the point.

Ccomeon. Get real. A little cake doesn't ruin it unless you overdo it. My take is Pantheon will be fine if it doesn't indulge on these things. It'll cave and add more of these things as it gets older, but that's what you get with every MMO.

Yes it does ruin it. I have had over 15 years to think about the direction and results of MMO gaming. In fact, in early and mid EQ, when I played I was open to many aspects of "new school" design. Hell, I was on board. It took over a decade of playing game after game serving those "cake" features to realize what was missing, why these games can not satisfy. It is the hardship features I bitched about during EQ that made it worth it. All the things you described above are needed.

And just to make sure we're on the same page, when I say "these things" what I mean are downtime reducers, instances, insta-grouping server-wide or cross-server, simplistic itemization, low C&C, prohibiting players from falling off cliffs or slipping onto a horde of hungry spikes, scaling or restricting the level of monsters so they're similar to the player's level, enforced fairness in pvp, linear or otherwise flat and simple environments (to reduce navigation confusion or frustration), homogenized classes (everybody does everything), etc. If you can agree those things are reminiscent of the mainstream then we're on the same page. Oh and of course I forgot to add: cartoony or animey art or themes to appeal to the kids and grown ups (who for some reason like it).

I just think you can have some of that and the game can still be tight/intense, challenging and fun.

Currently I am messing around with an EQ private server game called "Shards of Dalya", It doesn't have all the hardships that lets say Project 1999 has, but it is close (death penalty could be more), but all of the things in that game that are a pain? Downtime, no instances, contested, place holders, camping, long travel, etc... Are needed. In fact, I want them more to be like original EQ. So after all these years, having done it all, I prefer the very thing I think I hated in the first place. Why? Because I only hated it because I hadn't experienced why it was better. These kids? These people who didn't get to experience EQ in the early days, who didn't get to see all the types of progression and aspects of these games in their prime? They don't have a fucking clue. Just like I thought I knew when I was playing EQ, they are just as ignorant. There is a reason people want "old school" and it ain't nostalgia. All of those "hated" elements of play made up for the most memorable moments in gaming. None of the games that have "cake" have that for me, I can't even remember half of them anymore, that is how meaningless the game play was.

So no, I have no care to listen to new school. They have no clue about why these various impediments improve game play. They only see it from an impatient child's view of having to wait and they do not share "The Vision" of Brad.

 

[Xenich]

I get a Vanguard feel from this, can only end badly.

I remember the Vanguard beta and the cesspool of self entitled pricks those forums managed to gather, mentioning WoW would get you hate mail in your inbox.

And I ̶h̶o̶p̶e̶ pray that doesn't happen. I don't want WoW, but neither is s*** like that respectable or desired.

I hope that it doesn't devolve to this as well, but... the problem will be that some objections are going to be deserved. That is, the fucking moron that walks into the forum, goes on in a long post about how they want this and that feature, how they play for their fun, how those "old school" features are outdated, nobody wants... etc... Doing that when this game is clear its direction, its intended audience, etc... Nothing short of stringing the fucking idiot up and bleeding him out would be deserving. You have to either be a troll or dumber than shit to go to Pantheon and take such an attitude.

 

[Xenich]

I just want to comment a bit more on the various things that "new school" mentality seems to argue against. Those downtime's, limitations, hardships, inconveniences, that is the point. It is that which obstructs us to which gives the tools to overcome them so much meaning.

Take travel for instance in a game like EQ. In the beginning, every class is walking. They are all pretty much the same, but some classes get movement speed abilities. Of those that get them, they get them at differing levels and differing speeds. So now, those classes stand out, they have a benefit that others do not have in this specific area. Now those classes can move around to their destinations faster while others are having to move at the slower rate. These classes may have a self only spell, or... they may be able to cast it on others. Their value as a class now has meaning among others. They become useful in a group situation. Some classes get the ability to bind at a point and then use a spell to gate back to that point. This again, gives meaning to their class and allows a benefit over having to walk back and forth everywhere.

In time, some classes get the ability to port to a specific zone location be it spires or druid rings. These are limited in that early on, ports are limited based on level and are self only initially, though later open up to group based ports. So now, these players have the ability to get around more easily, to help their friends, etc... Then there are abilities like succor which allows the caster to escape their group to another place in the zone quickly, wiping agro.

Again, all of these things are special abilities to which various classes, and different times may be able to offer a group or to themselves to which others can not.

THAT is the point. If you make travel this easy thing, where everyone can do it, you take away a layer of complexity and development. Now do this with all the other aspects of play. Don't like corpse retrieval? Run with a necro, they can summon them. Don't like eating a huge EXP penalty, get a cleric, and they will help reduce it. All of these "inconveniences" are game mechanics that serve a purpose of making the classes unique, useful and facilitating a community based society of reliance and cooperation. Take that away and all you get is a bunch of people speed running a dungeon going "More DPS MORE DPS MORE DPS!!!!!" Yeah. no thanks.

 

[Ranselknulf]

I hope they apply this "down time" aspect to music as well.

I hate how modern games have nonstop music running for everything. It's one of the reasons why I enjoy diablo 1 so much. The music is atmospheric and starts and stops at appropriate times or even just randomly at times. Properly used silence can build atmosphere more than a nonstop orchestral epic can.

 

[Norfleet]

Take travel for instance in a game like EQ. In the beginning, every class is walking. They are all pretty much the same, but some classes get movement speed abilities. Of those that get them, they get them at differing levels and differing speeds. So now, those classes stand out, they have a benefit that others do not have in this specific area.

Ah, yes, Evercrack. I seem to recall that the result of this was that you had legions of people hanging around begging for a SoW...

Don't like corpse retrieval? Run with a necro, they can summon them. Don't like eating a huge EXP penalty, get a cleric, and they will help reduce it.

Ah, yes the old days of De-Levelling. Friend of mine told me that the XP penalty was actually an interesting mechanic where you could intentionally lose XP to remain within a certain PK bracket of your choice, and there was much hliarity to be had, just like in the old days of MUDs.

All of these "inconveniences" are game mechanics that serve a purpose of making the classes unique, useful and facilitating a community based society of reliance and cooperation. Take that away and all you get is a bunch of people speed running a dungeon going "More DPS MORE DPS MORE DPS!!!!!" Yeah. no thanks.

Reliance, cooperation, and additional pylons. You must construct additional pylons.

Personally I think the world has moved on and I don't think there's enough demand for this MMO to be successful, but I definitely don't mind seeing someone try to develop something for that particular niche market. Maybe I'll be surprised. /shrug

I would argue that this is how you'd make a game successful at this point. As you pointed out, the world may have moved on, but that means those of us who long for the days of old are now an unfilled niche. We're NOT going to buy into that new crap because we don't want it. Making a game intended to go head-to-head with World of Warcrap is sort of an exercise doomed to failure. Why not target an unfulfilled niche instead?

 

[Xenich]

Take travel for instance in a game like EQ. In the beginning, every class is walking. They are all pretty much the same, but some classes get movement speed abilities. Of those that get them, they get them at differing levels and differing speeds. So now, those classes stand out, they have a benefit that others do not have in this specific area.

Ah, yes, Evercrack. I seem to recall that the result of this was that you had legions of people hanging around begging for a SoW...

Yep, there was a demand for something other than "Need moar DPS!" It is funny how such a concept of play is completely taken for granted now.

Don't like corpse retrieval? Run with a necro, they can summon them. Don't like eating a huge EXP penalty, get a cleric, and they will help reduce it.

Ah, yes the old days of De-Levelling. Friend of mine told me that the XP penalty was actually an interesting mechanic where you could intentionally lose XP to remain within a certain PK bracket of your choice, and there was much hliarity to be had, just like in the old days of MUDs.

What I liked about it was that it still presented a danger at max level, something that is commonly overlooked these days.

All of these "inconveniences" are game mechanics that serve a purpose of making the classes unique, useful and facilitating a community based society of reliance and cooperation. Take that away and all you get is a bunch of people speed running a dungeon going "More DPS MORE DPS MORE DPS!!!!!" Yeah. no thanks.

Reliance, cooperation, and additional pylons. You must construct additional pylons.

Yep, which only exists at a raid level these days in most games. I mean, a community of players where random people have tools of value for every day game play? it is just sad that they went in the opposite direction over the years. Rather than continue on making classes unique and individual, having something to offer that no other class has, they homogenized them all. Welcome to bland MMO 101!

Personally I think the world has moved on and I don't think there's enough demand for this MMO to be successful, but I definitely don't mind seeing someone try to develop something for that particular niche market. Maybe I'll be surprised. /shrug

I would argue that this is how you'd make a game successful at this point. As you pointed out, the world may have moved on, but that means those of us who long for the days of old are now an unfilled niche. We're NOT going to buy into that new crap because we don't want it. Making a game intended to go head-to-head with World of Warcrap is sort of an exercise doomed to failure. Why not target an unfulfilled niche instead?

It is unfortunate. It is like even attempting to create an MMO these days that doesn't mimic mainstream is inundated with droves of people acting like "Invasion of the Body Snatchers" or the "Borg", that you must be assimilated for having a game that is not like all the rest is some great evil. /boggle

 

[Jaesun]

Did this get funded?

 

[belowmecoldhands]

(....)

All of these "inconveniences" are game mechanics that serve a purpose of making the classes unique, useful and facilitating a community based society of reliance and cooperation. Take that away and all you get is a bunch of people speed running a dungeon going "More DPS MORE DPS MORE DPS!!!!!" Yeah. no thanks.

Reliance, cooperation, and additional pylons. You must construct additional pylons.

Yep, which only exists at a raid level these days in most games. I mean, a community of players where random people have tools of value for every day game play? it is just sad that they went in the opposite direction over the years. Rather than continue on making classes unique and individual, having something to offer that no other class has, they homogenized them all. Welcome to bland MMO 101!
(....)

Got some doubts about all that.

I think modern games still have some unique things in their classes. Community and cooperation aren't dead. But I do think reducing C&C and keeping the game safe all kind of work together to produce results which bare resemblance to the above. Homogenization of classes means players don't have to worry as much about the class they chose, or envy what another clas can do. Simplistic character development means they don't have to worry about their skill/stat/etc choices. And yet there's still choices to be made. And some of hte reduction might be good, as a good bulk of it was technical in traditional games. Why should an RPG be technical? Why should a player have to make equations and have ready access to a calculator in order to play most effectively? And what's fun just folowing a guide on the internet? There's no discovery when someone else is teling you whatto do.

How doyou feel about respeccing Xenich? The idea a player can just reset their skills and re-allot them at will? For example, if I play a skill-based game and am very high-skilled, but suddenly decide I want a different skill setup? Respeccing allows me to reallocate my skills and to try something else much more rapidly than in traditional RPGs.

 

[Norfleet]

Respeccing seems like a mixed bag. On one hand, it's kinda anti-C&C, but on the other hand, is asking players to make any kind of decision when they really have no way of making a meaningful informed decision and then forcing them to stick with that FOREVER, especially after you then nerf whatever they choose, really a good thing? Given the penchant for nerfing, I'm inclined to side on the pro-respec side. After all, real people don't hit a cap and then become permanently stuck that way forever, no matter how much they wish to learn something else.

 

[Xenich]

Got some doubts about all that.

I think modern games still have some unique things in their classes. Community and cooperation aren't dead. But I do think reducing C&C and keeping the game safe all kind of work together to produce results which bare resemblance to the above. Homogenization of classes means players don't have to worry as much about the class they chose, or envy what another clas can do. Simplistic character development means they don't have to worry about their skill/stat/etc choices. And yet there's still choices to be made. And some of hte reduction might be good, as a good bulk of it was technical in traditional games. Why should an RPG be technical? Why should a player have to make equations and have ready access to a calculator in order to play most effectively? And what's fun just folowing a guide on the internet? There's no discovery when someone else is teling you whatto do.

Well, RPGs area bout the technical. Sorry, I was around for PnP inception and progression. Story based RPG LARPing claims aren't what the systems were originally designed for. That is not to say there is no room for the adaptions and differing focuses that went LARPing story focus (ie White Wolf), but lets be fair, cRPGs have been predominately about the technical. The whole "I play a story role. I am about the LARPing" is nice and all, but it is a poor excuse to circumvent mechanical play of cRPGs. Those who use the internet for hints? Need I say? They aren't playing a game, they are cheating it. Those who would copy cat builds? /sigh Seriously, how do you think new builds come about? It is because someone else decides to experiment, try different focuses, etc... and well.. their build becomes the new fad. So, the fact there are lazy people who can't be bothered to do anything on their own, well... is that a problem with the game? Or... is that a problem with the individual? Should we really give the "cheat code" player any attention? This is like Smedly (SoE) complaining about how there is no point in developing content these days because players will cheat it all online. Here is what I say.... FUCK THOSE PLAYERS!!! If they are so fucking pathetic that they can't restrain from cheating the games they play, well... fuck them, they aren't worth serving content for because they have an unrealistic understanding of the games they play.

How doyou feel about respeccing Xenich? The idea a player can just reset their skills and re-allot them at will? For example, if I play a skill-based game and am very high-skilled, but suddenly decide I want a different skill setup? Respeccing allows me to reallocate my skills and to try something else much more rapidly than in traditional RPGs.

I don't like it. That is my base feeling... but... I understand that in an MMO forcing someone to restart over again (especially in a very hard and slow focused system) is a bit much. Now keep in mind "respecing" is only a major need IF you have more options than you allow for your points. For instance, in EQ, they had AA. You were limited, but were always guaranteed a means to gain more as content was released. Also, everything in AAs were beneficial, so.. even though you did provide the optimal min/max build, you were still able as a character and with a new content update, able to focus on the areas you thought lacking at the time. No need for respecing. Though AAs in games like EQ were long term games, focused on long term development. Games like WoW are short term focus, more of a "flavor" system than a long term character development system. So in EQ, respecing isn't needed, but in games like WoW, with quick focused and limited systems, I see how it can be reasonable. I prefer the EQ like systems though. Those who would complain about respeccing in EQ, well... My answer is... pay more attention before you spend your points. Welcome to decision and consequence. Don't like you choices, start over. Again, welcome to decision and consequence.

 

[Xenich]

Respeccing seems like a mixed bag. On one hand, it's kinda anti-C&C, but on the other hand, is asking players to make any kind of decision when they really have no way of making a meaningful informed decision and then forcing them to stick with that FOREVER, especially after you then nerf whatever they choose, really a good thing? Given the penchant for nerfing, I'm inclined to side on the pro-respec side. After all, real people don't hit a cap and then become permanently stuck that way forever, no matter how much they wish to learn something else.

Well, if your system is a long term progressive system where a player can adjust their focus with new content, there is nothing wrong holding them to it. Remember, in games like EQ, AAs were vast, and the amount of points per content was huge. So, unless one was prone to being an idiot over an extreme long term, any "opps I didn't mean to put my points in that" type of mistake could be corrected to an extent. Now if you were min/maxing, well... you had better have planned out your development from day 1. Those who complained about having to do that while they were attempting to min/max? well.. sorry... but seriously, fuck off! I mean, if you were wanting to min/max so fucking bad, then why didn't you plan it out?

 

[Xenich]

Let me clarify on both the above up there concerning development systems.

I prefer a system that is not respeccable, BUT ultimately would allow you to obtain all skills with the catch being that the means to achieve such (per content update) becomes exponentially more difficult the closer you get to the max of those skills. This way, you can pick as you like early on, but eventually getting those points will become harder and harder to obtain everything (massive grind near the max with only the "professional gamer extraordinaire" being bale to achieve it before new content spread out again) . This way, you have to pay attention to your builds if you want to be "perfect" in your progression, BUT... you can repair them with effort over time if you mess up. Sure, you will be behind that of the min/maxer, but this is acceptable as you can still repair with the existing content (with effort) and improve in different directions as new content is released.

 

[belowmecoldhands]

Let me clarify on both the above up there concerning development systems.

I prefer a system that is not respeccable, BUT ultimately would allow you to obtain all skills with the catch being that the means to achieve such (per content update) becomes exponentially more difficult the closer you get to the max of those skills. This way, you can pick as you like early on, but eventually getting those points will become harder and harder to obtain everything (massive grind near the max with only the "professional gamer extraordinaire" being bale to achieve it before new content spread out again) . This way, you have to pay attention to your builds if you want to be "perfect" in your progression, BUT... you can repair them with effort over time if you mess up. Sure, you will be behind that of the min/maxer, but this is acceptable as you can still repair with the existing content (with effort) and improve in different directions as new content is released.

You just explained, in part, Wurm Online. Gaining skill is slower the higher a skill is. It's skill-based. You can train everything; there's no cap. It's so slow at the higher ranges that players who've played for years are stil gaining. It doesn't bother me, though. There's grind, definitely. Most of the time it never bothered me. I explain this (somewhat indirectly) here:
http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/inde...-the-ultimate-sandbox-mmo.83506/#post-3792021

Grind is deserving of a thrad by itself. Love to say something, but not here.

I'm not against respeccing. I guess it depends on the game. Ultima Online allowed you to untrain and train new skills. It also capped how many skill points you had, thus capping how many skills you could GM. However, it was really grindy to train a skill to GM without macroing. It was a slow process. Fast respeccing is another matter. I think it could work. The only experience I've had in games which might be comparable are the FPS games with different playable classes which have NO levels or cash shops attached. So, if you die, you could try a different class. And the gameplay was real fast, so waiting isn't a problem.

 

[Xenich]

I'm not against respeccing. I guess it depends on the game. Ultima Online allowed you to untrain and train new skills. It also capped how many skill points you had, thus capping how many skills you could GM. However, it was really grindy to train a skill to GM without macroing. It was a slow process. Fast respeccing is another matter. I think it could work. The only experience I've had in games which might be comparable are the FPS games with different playable classes which have NO levels or cash shops attached. So, if you die, you could try a different class. And the gameplay was real fast, so waiting isn't a problem.

I haven't played UO since around Second Age release, but from what I remember back then(its sketchy) , to "retrain", it essentially meant giving up everything you spent in the skill in order to focus on another. I have no problems with someone giving up everything to retrain in another direction (similar to picking a different crafting skill in many MMOs, you change, you wipe EVERYTHING and start over). That is acceptable. The problems I have are with people being able to switch around as they choose with any real means as it demeans the time and effort the careful player takes in planning their development. Why should the person who is lazy, who shoots from the hip, etc... be able to change their mind on a whim? It defies proper consequence to decision. A change of such nature should be one not taken lightly. It should be something that MOST people dread to even consider due to the extreme time and effort. If they put such an option in like that? I won't have too much of an objection,but like I said... the process of of such should make most people say "Fuck that, what a waste of time!".

 

[Norfleet]

Well, if your system is a long term progressive system where a player can adjust their focus with new content, there is nothing wrong holding them to it. Remember, in games like EQ, AAs were vast, and the amount of points per content was huge. So, unless one was prone to being an idiot over an extreme long term, any "opps I didn't mean to put my points in that" type of mistake could be corrected to an extent. Now if you were min/maxing, well... you had better have planned out your development from day 1. Those who complained about having to do that while they were attempting to min/max? well.. sorry... but seriously, fuck off! I mean, if you were wanting to min/max so fucking bad, then why didn't you plan it out?

That's the thing with MMOs, though: The rules aren't fixed. In fact, whatever you do will inevitably end up being wrong, because anything worth taking is nerfed until it isn't.

I prefer a system that is not respeccable, BUT ultimately would allow you to obtain all skills with the catch being that the means to achieve such (per content update) becomes exponentially more difficult the closer you get to the max of those skills. This way, you can pick as you like early on, but eventually getting those points will become harder and harder to obtain everything (massive grind near the max with only the "professional gamer extraordinaire" being bale to achieve it before new content spread out again) . This way, you have to pay attention to your builds if you want to be "perfect" in your progression, BUT... you can repair them with effort over time if you mess up. Sure, you will be behind that of the min/maxer, but this is acceptable as you can still repair with the existing content (with effort) and improve in different directions as new content is released.

I agree with this idea. However, the more commonly seen MMO system is that you have a fixed pool of points to allocate, you will never get more by any means, and if you can never change it, your character will inevitably become a brick. Even if you pick your skills correctly the first time (and this isn't a realistic expectation with a new player, so the right move may simply be not to pick anything at all), the nature of an MMO is that NERF HAPPENS.

Obviously, there's a large gap between "respecs are practically without penalty" (even if you have a limited number of them/pay2win for them) and "no respecs or retrains at all, your character is relegated to mule status every other patch or so", which is, frankly, unrealistic, since nobody in real life ever runs into a case of "I learned the wrong skills, I'm screwed forever now". Can you imagine that in real life, where, if you read the wrong books, you're fucked forever, never able to learn another skill? That is just stupid.

The concept I've thought of for a respec/retrain system would have worked like this: You allocate your character XP as usual. Should you desire to respec your skills, you reallocate your template to your new desired configuration: From that point on, when you gain XP, it causes your allocated skills to shift towards your new template until you reach it. So if you're making a minor tweak, it will happen pretty quickly and easily, but if you're attempting to radically rethink your life, it will take a much longer time to reach your new template. At no point would you ever be locked into something forever, though: That's just unrealistic.