Paradox has bought White Wolf, plans on giving "some fresh blood" to the WoD/Vampire IPs

[Lacrymas]

VtM:R had a sequence in the daylight, where you infiltrate Stephansdom. You had to navigate around the sunlight and stick to the shadows. It was interesting for one level, but if I had to constantly do it it would get tedious. There was also a story reason for the coterie going in there during sunlight. Vampirism's point isn't the weakness during daylight, it was put there to give the human protagonists a chance against them. This weakness is not a mirror image of humanity because we don't die when exposed to the moon. It still sticks around because constant darkness is effective as atmosphere if the protagonist is a vampire. Focusing on survival would miss the entire point of VtM. Like Zombra said, feeding is like going to Burger King and upholding the Masquerade isn't all that difficult. Survival also doesn't play on the strengths of such settings, all creatures can be put in a situation where survival is a necessity, them being vampires brings nothing to the table.

 

[Alex]

Toreador are underdeveloped because most of what they are is just the hot, captivating vampire stereotype

Some of them are artistic geniuses. Being hot and captivating opens up some doors that will be closed to the other clans (maybe not Ventrue, depends). I also think they are the only ones who don't exude an eerie aura to mortals? The downsides are a mixed bag tbh, I'd say that the Nagaraja's downside is pretty major. Tremere has no downside, so they force one upon themselves, but it's weird, they can make it interesting though. Making a game too centered around the downsides will be a completely different narrative and the gameplay would be significantly slower (which isn't a bad thing). I'd love to play as a Tzimisce, especially a very alien one. Like all things in this life, it depends on how well-thought-out the whole thing is going to be.

Depending on your GM, Tremere have a very bad downside of having a mage tradition as enemies.

 

[Alex]

Well, fuck them. Good ideas, Kem0sabe

It would be interesting to play a "post-apoc" Vampire game indeed. Just make it similar to AoD.

Dunno, Mad Max with vampires also sounds pretty cool.

Setting it after Gehenna is going to cheapen the event. (snip...)

It is going to be much worse than that. I really don't know why they don't simply assume there was no Gehenna. Then again, they probably want to use the Gehenna so they can do away with any NPC or aspect from the old game they don't want to bring back. I really think it would have been a better idea to set the new edition in the 90s. Change the setting, maybe rework the meta-plot, add in new rules, but not changing the basic idea.

 

[Jedi Exile]

Dunno, Mad Max with vampires also sounds pretty cool.

Beth already did that in Fallout 3

 

[Kem0sabe]

Dunno why time management in a Vampire game, using day and night cycle, would be such a problem. You have plenty of rpg's that force added difficulty on the player if he chooses to play after sun down (like dragons dogma) and they work fine, the reverse could also work, forcing the player to use sewers, caves, buildings, basements, etc, to traverse a daylight environment, and with certain merchants, npc's, enemies, quests, only being available either in daylight hours or after dark, making for added incentive to go the hard daylight route to find a certain store open, or quest, or maybe breaking into the store after dark and having to plan accordingly.

 

[pippin]

Day/night cycles wouldn't be so different from hunger/thirst indicators, which many people seem to love.

 

[Rahdulan]

VtM:R had a sequence in the daylight, where you infiltrate Stephansdom. You had to navigate around the sunlight and stick to the shadows. It was interesting for one level, but if I had to constantly do it it would get tedious. There was also a story reason for the coterie going in there during sunlight.

I'm also pretty sure that section caused fits of whatever to people familiar with Masquerade rules about vampires staying "awake" during day time and forcing any actions.

 

[Alex]

Day/night cycles wouldn't be so different from hunger/thirst indicators, which many people seem to love.

I think Zombra's point is that Bloodlines wasn't that kind of game. It wasn't the kind of game where you had to worry about having enough blood for the month, where you had to worry if the vampire hunters were encroaching this or that neighborhood. You don't have to worry about feeding too much in one location drawing too much attention. You don't have to worry about your actions drawing the attention of the police or other mortals (you can have mask breaches in certain quests, but that is an element of the quest itself). The only aspect you do have to worry is about using disciplines or showing your ugly face as a Nosferatu. And even so, that is hardly an important aspect of the game. It is not like those things are actually stopping your from doing something you would otherwise be able to do. There are a whole lot you could do to make an interesting sandbox game with Vampire, but Bloodlines really takes the opposite approach.

 

[Ninjerk]

You don't take the vampire concept and remove its primary weakness.

Sure you do. If I play a game about being a shark attacking swimmers, I'm not going to be interested in long sequences where I have to flop around on land.

The "vampire concept" at bottom is a bunch of weird metaphors about the dark side of humanity. They represent the evil in our hearts etc., and have weird and scary unstoppable powers to make them invulnerable to everything but the triumph of the human spirit. Flip the dynamic around by making a vampire the hero and you've already ass-backwarded the entire point. When you do choose to make that jump, it's stupid to not frame a protagonist with the conventions of a protagonist, i.e. not so far out of their element that they are unrecognizable to themselves ... unless of course you are doing a "stress-survival" type story like about a guy trapped underwater or something. That could be an interesting game I guess ... vampire trapped outside with nowhere to dig a hole, how do you survive when the sun comes up? But it wasn't the story Bloodlines wanted to tell, and it's not going to be the story anyone who picks up the license will want to tell. Vampires who hang out in sunlight are dumb - not only is it a dumb story beat, but the characters themselves would have to be morons. No one wants to play as a hero that dumb.

Don't know who was arguing for this, but it wasn't me.

 

[Zombra]

I think Zombra's point is that Bloodlines wasn't that kind of game.

Yeah. You certainly could make a fun "sunlight management" survival game; what I object to is Kem0sabe's original statement that a vampire game "should" have sunlight management as a significant component. You can make "human games" about improper nutrition or traffic accidents, since these are major threats to humans. But a game about humans that does not focus on these themes is not somehow a failure.

 

[Kem0sabe]

I think it should, playing bloodlines felt too much like playing a mary sue adventure, the characters are too powerful, the balance was off.

Sun light, hunger management and a true masquerade system would go a good way in adding counters to the player.

But I also understand why people would want to focus more on story and role-playing elements, as that's what garnered bloodlines it's status among fans.

 

[Roguey]

Play a ventrue, don't put any points into any of the combat skills, enjoy your "power"

 

[Lacrymas]

There is also another reason why you were powerful in Bloodlines - You were incredibly low generation. Multiple people in-game commented on this, wondering how you could become so powerful and master disciplines in such a short amount of time. I think it was estimated that you were 5th generation i.e. your sire was a Methuselah, albeit a newly created/inexperienced one. Which means an Antediluvian was on the move, a sign of Gehenna. I thought that was a pretty interesting move.

 

[Kem0sabe]

Play a ventrue, don't put any points into any of the combat skills, enjoy your "power"

Why wouldn't anyone put any points in combat skills? It's like breaking your leg and then saying 'look how hard it is for humans to walk'

 

[Zombra]

On top of that, another major theme in vampire mythos is the power fantasy. Great power at the cost of humanity. In a game where "you are the monster", the expectation is that you'll be a cut above, and have a major edge on those around you. It's only natural to ego stroke the player more than usual. A game where you get to be a vampire but you're weak and helpless and it's all about your vulnerabilities would really be working against itself.

On top of that, Bloodlines wasn't a story about the player's struggle to build personal power or conquer his weaknesses. The PC has personal power, and basically no weaknesses, but the conflict lies in the manipulations of other people to exploit that power. It's engaging in a way that a traditional "start sucky, gain levels" RPG doesn't often achieve.

 

[Alex]

Play a ventrue, don't put any points into any of the combat skills, enjoy your "power"

Why wouldn't anyone put any points in combat skills? It's like breaking your leg and then saying 'look how hard it is for humans to walk'

Well, there are plenty of non combat focused characters in P&P Vampire. If you come to the game with the expectations of it being similar...

 

[Athelas]

On top of that, another major theme in vampire mythos is the power fantasy. Great power at the cost of humanity. In a game where "you are the monster", the expectation is that you'll be a cut above, and have a major edge on those around you. It's only natural to ego stroke the player more than usual. A game where you get to be a vampire but you're weak and helpless and it's all about your vulnerabilities would really be working against itself.

What about all that humanity and masquerade business? Thin-bloods? I'd argue that a theme was that being a vampire isn't (just) a power fantasy.

On top of that, Bloodlines wasn't a story about the player's struggle to build personal power or conquer his weaknesses. The PC has personal power, and basically no weaknesses, but the conflict lies in the manipulations of other people to exploit that power.

What conflict? It's not as if the game ever gave you any choice in how to deal with the vampire politics - you're forced to rat Nines out even though he was practically wearing a sign that said 'I'm mind-controlled/shape-shifted/etc.' Ditto for not being able to do anything if you found out Ming was up to all sorts of shady stuff and in cahoots with LaCroix. Bloodlines' zero to hero progression is hardly unique - it's something that plagues most RPG's.

 

[Kem0sabe]

Well, there are plenty of non combat focused characters in P&P Vampire. If you come to the game with the expectations of it being similar...

Bloodlines was an action rpg, not really catering to non combat oriented characters. I would argue that the last third of the game has more in common with Diablo mindless killing than it has with a proper rpg.

 

[Alex]

Well, there are plenty of non combat focused characters in P&P Vampire. If you come to the game with the expectations of it being similar...

Bloodlines was an action rpg, not really catering to non combat oriented characters. I would argue that the last third of the game has more in common with Diablo mindless killing than it has with a proper rpg.

I know that. I am just saying there is a legitimate reason for making a non combat character. (End game does suck a lot for them, though).

 

[Athelas]

Well, there are plenty of non combat focused characters in P&P Vampire. If you come to the game with the expectations of it being similar...

Bloodlines was an action rpg, not really catering to non combat oriented characters. I would argue that the last third of the game has more in common with Diablo mindless killing than it has with a proper rpg.

Deus Ex is an action RPG too, and it consistently allows for a pacifist play style.

 

[Lacrymas]

What about all that humanity and masquerade business? Thin-bloods?

Humanity is just one of many paths you can be on as a Vampire. Their goal is to control the Beast. You can be on the Path of Metamorphosis and be completely inhuman in every possible way. Thin-bloods have diluted blood and don't have all the weaknesses of other vampires (they have others though), they can even give birth to children. They were despised because they were thought to be a sign of Gehenna (and that was right)

Bloodlines' zero to hero progression is hardly unique - it's something that plagues most RPG's.

Like I said, you were never a zero, you were a 5th generation vampire and were leagues above most/all enemies, even Ming and Andrei.

 

[Kem0sabe]

I often says bloodlines is a good half a game, it's very front loaded with its quality content bring at the start of the game, same thing happened with Arcanum.

 

[Athelas]

Humanity is just one of many paths you can be on as a Vampire. Their goal is to control the Beast. You can be on the Path of Metamorphosis and be completely inhuman in every possible way. Thin-bloods have diluted blood and don't have all the weaknesses of other vampires, they can even give birth to children. They were despised because they were thought to be a sign of Gehenna (and they were right)

Uh, thanks for the info dump I guess? My point was that the setting does a lot to subvert the power fantasy of being a vampire. You can't feed mindlessly without risking retribution for masquerade violations or loss of control from frenzy, which puts you in danger. Being sired in modern times means there's a chance you'll turn out a thin-blood. Etc.

Like I said, you were never a zero, you were a 5th generation vampire and were leagues above most enemies, even Ming and Andrei.

I'm pretty sure you're supposed to be an 8th generation vampire, or newer (i.e. weaker). I believe someone deduced that based on the amounts of blood points you get (I'm not familiar with the P&P system myself).

 

[Lacrymas]

My point was that the setting does a lot to subvert the power fantasy of being a vampire.

And my point was that it doesn't. I just mentioned that humanity and thin-bloods have nothing to do with whether it's a power fantasy or not. I hate the phrase "power fantasy" in general though. Vampires in VtM don't angst over feeding on mortals (generally) and it's not a problem at all, especially since most of them don't kill their prey AND the bite is considered extremely pleasurable to both the vampire and the prey. The Camarilla exists to uphold the Masquerade, so that's not much of a problem as well.

I'm pretty sure you're supposed to be an 8th generation vampire, or newer (i.e. weaker). I believe someone deduced that based on the amounts of blood points you get (I'm not familiar with the P&P system myself).

Right, my bad. You had 15 blood points which means 8th. I just thought you have like 20. I had to google it :p It doesn't matter, you were still a low generation vampire.

 

[Roguey]

Caine makes you undergo diablerie in your sleep, that tzimisce fucker even says your blood smells different from before at the end.