Putting the 'role' back in role-playing games since 2002.
Donate to Codex
Good Old Games
  • Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.

Turn-Based Tactics Phantom Doctrine - "tactical Cold War conspiracy thriller" by Hard West devs

Infinitron

I post news
Staff Member
Joined
Jan 28, 2011
Messages
97,228
Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2017/12/21/phantom-doctrine-preview-2/

Phantom Doctrine is much more than a Cold War XCOM

phantomdoctrine1-620x310.jpg


Phantom Doctrine is a game of ‘ifs’ and ‘buts’. I would have completed my mission without being spotted if one of my agents hadn’t been compromised but the fact that she turned on me and I managed to neutralise her at least means the enemy has played their hand and she can’t do any further damage. Now, even though our cover is blown, if we can make it to the extraction point this will still be a success.

But I’m really tempted to leave one member of my team behind if he keeps attracting the attention of guards and…oh, now there’s a helicopter and we’re apparently troublesome enough that missile strikes are an option. I am a bad spy.

This is the game that won my heart at Gamescom earlier in the year. It’s always a risk, falling for a game before having a chance to play it, but as I wrote at the time, it “looks like an exquisite marriage of setting, mechanics and theme”. Think XCOM but with shadowy and very human conspiracies rather than extraterrestrial invaders, and a cold war setting that draws on seventies thrillers to introduce such delights as brainwashed double agents, chemically-enhanced soldier-spies, and enough secrets, lies and betrayals to fill every Christmas soap opera episode from here to 2052.

Also murders.

doctrine5-620x304.jpg


Now I have played it, though I spent most of my time getting into trouble on a tactical mission rather than blowing conspiracies wide open on the strategic map. What I’ve learned is that the XCOM comparison can only take us so far. There’s a world map and a hideout base where soldiers are recruited/promoted and where interrogations occur. There are isometric tactical missions with a UI that’ll make sense to anyone who has spent time with Firaxis’ aliens, but for everything that seems immediately familiar, there are new and unusual elements. And, in fitting with the conspiracy-themed setting, nothing is quite as it seems.

Your ultimate goal is to unpick a plot that sees East played against West. You’re not working for either side, but rather trying to bring down a third-party who are playing everyone off against everyone else. That means you’re outgunned and outnumbered, because you’re often forced to infiltrate embassies and go up against governments against secret agencies who are themselves pawns in a larger scheme.

doctrine3-620x334.jpg


The small group of agents that you control are seen as enemies by everyone, essentially framed as villains and terrorists as they try to prevent a global cataastrophe. You’re up against the whole world, and that’s why you need to play smart.

Brute force isn’t going to get you anywhere and when I had to resort to shooting my way out during a scripted plot mission, as soon as the alarm was triggered, an endless supply of guards appeared at the borders of the map. Every turn, new squads, and eventually that helicopter, which targets agents forcing them to flee for cover or be blown to bits. There are probably missions where an aggressive approach does pay off, but for the most part this is tactical stealth.

doctrine1-620x302.jpg


That means line of sight is important, as is paying attention to areas of the map that are off limits. I was able to put my agents into position outside the installation they were preparing to enter and they were treated as harmless civilians as long as they were on the outside and didn’t do anything suspicious. Like cracking the neck of a guard or firing a weapon.

When we did crack a couple of necks, bodies were easily disposed of before anyone could spot them, and we managed to get inside. And once inside we met up with the fourth member of our group, who had been embedded before the mission began.

That’s one of those unexpected elements. There are essentially three possible start-points for agents on a mission. They can be part of your squad, preparing to infiltrate, they can be planted within the objective by assigning them to go undercover on the world map, or they can be at the perimeter of the map working as spotters or snipers. Those latter agents can’t enter the actual tactical grid – they’re off-screen, assigned to one edge of the map and equipped with either a scope or a rifle. With the scope, they can track enemy positions, and with a rifle they can pick off anyone foolish enough to stand near a window or in the open.

doctrine2-620x308.jpg


And the undercover agents can do just about anything you might imagine. You could have them kill all of their ‘colleagues’ silently and efficiently, giving your other agents a clear path to their target (whether that’s documents to steal, systems to sabotage, or a person to kill or kidnap), or they could simply act as eyes and ears on the inside. It might even be possible to have them complete objectives while pretending to be a good employee, without drawing attention to themselves.

Just because they’re on the inside, that doesn’t mean they’ll have clearance for every building or room on-site though and even the best disguise can be undone in one careless moment. Imagine this Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy scene https://www.nytimes.com/video/movies/100000001215366/inside-tinker-tailor-solder-spy.html but turn-based.

Tension is the key to it all. In most tactical games, cover is a waist-high wall, a tree trunk or the corner of a building; here, before it’s any of those things, it’s an espionage concept. Rather than being the place that you cower when the bullets start to fly, cover is the thing you try to preserve to avoid a firefight.

All of that feeds from the tactical encounters to the world map. As situations arose around the globe, I’d dispatch agents, alone or in groups, to find out what the hell was happening. Sometimes they discover an enemy agent or a specific plot, which can open up new avenues of investigation that might eventually lead to a set mission that moves the core narrative along. Sometimes they find information that can be applied to the big conspiracy board, where you make links between places and people and scraps of intercepted data in the most gloriously low-tech way possible. It’s pinboards and string, and it’s fantastic.

doctrine4-620x327.jpg


The information board is an example of Phantom Doctrine communicating its theme perfectly. It’s not all that complicated – you’re effectively looking for words that match across various scraps of paper – but the text on each document feels like it’s been plucked out of any one of the 1970s thrillers that are as much an influence on the developers as XCOM or Invisible, Inc. Redacted phrases are used cleverly to break up sentences and paragraphs so that gaps in the logic of the generated text are literally painted over.

I didn’t have a chance to play with the wider campaign enough to say for sure that it will work. Brainwashing and then releasing enemy agents, so they can be flipped to your side during a later mission, is great, and I have high hopes for the chicanery all of that manipulation will make possible. But there are a lot of overlapping systems through the different layers of the strategic map and the tactical confrontations. Speaking to the developers, it’s clear that they are, at one level, attempting to provide a balance between proactive and reactive play, something that XCOM has grappled with to some success.

Here, you can go for the throat of the conspiracy and use hit and run tactics to kick the hornet’s nest, or you can be more subtle, tinkering with the knowledge you’ve found to defuse situations before they explode into violence. It’s a bold game, built on the premise that information is power and then giving the player ways to uncover that information and deploy it as the see fit.

The closer you look, the less of XCOM there is to see. It’s the machinery beneath the surface that makes Phantom Doctrine tick and I reckon it’s complex enough that I’ll enjoy getting my hands dirty and picking it apart.
 
Developer
Joined
Aug 9, 2014
Messages
107
The more I played it, the more Hard West grew on me. This looks next game looks like it could be even better. But I hope the developer is planning on having a proper save system with multiple slots in this one.
Yes, a totally legit save system this time.

Annoying and unnecessary but forgivable given how short the campaigns are.
One long campaign this time (with an endless supply of side missions to play, with couple of starting points to choose from, and a worthy new game+ on top of that).

And I get that the save system in Hard West was the way it was because they wanted players to have to live with some of the negative effects coming from decisions made on the overland map.
nah, morelike the whole system would be very costful and we really had to cut a lot of corners there to make ends meet, especially on programming side (hence, for example, the 100% manually scripted world map layer)

Thanks for the answer but why are you quoting me answering in this thread a question I made in another one???

:philosoraptor:
I have no clue how that happened o_O
 
Developer
Joined
Aug 9, 2014
Messages
107
Cold War XCom?
So... Xenonauts?
No, this game will not want you to go weapons blazing unless you cannot do it otherwise.
Now, to be perfectly accurate, you can don a heavy armor and don't give a fuck about the whole stealth thing, and there's enough features and overall action to keep you happy.
However:
1) marketing-wise, we do focus on stealth a bit more because it makes the game stand out more, and fits the spy theme more clearly
2) in my opinion, game works best if you stealth through half of the mission, screw it up and have to end up shooting and running and getting away before you're zerg-rushed (as in, for example, "Goldeneye" opening)
3) from what I've observed, having both options, players are drawn heavily to the stealth style, although there are actually no bonuses/rewards for going silent (if anything, you get less xp, can miss some loot etc.) so we're making extra sure there are enough elements to convince the player to make the jump into combat
 

Saduj

Arcane
Joined
Aug 26, 2012
Messages
2,547
in my opinion, game works best if you stealth through half of the mission, screw it up and have to end up shooting and running and getting away before you're zerg-rushed (as in, for example, "Goldeneye" opening)

Great news for me because I can't manage to play stealth games any other way.
 

thesheeep

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Mar 16, 2007
Messages
9,939
Location
Tampere, Finland
Codex 2012 Strap Yourselves In Codex Year of the Donut Codex+ Now Streaming! Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Torment: Tides of Numenera Codex USB, 2014 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 BattleTech Bubbles In Memoria A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
Without dice rolls?
Well, from the article itself, it sounds more like "with dice rolls for damage, but not for to-hit (as you always hit)".
IMO that is a much better solution, at least psychologically.
Plus, it makes positioning more important as you cannot hope for luck to save a badly positioned unit.
 

LESS T_T

Arcane
Joined
Oct 5, 2012
Messages
13,582
Codex 2014
"'Phantom Doctrine' Tackles Turn-Based Tactics Without Dice Rolls": http://fandom.wikia.com/articles/phantom-doctrine-without-die-rolls

Heh, New Game Plus bonus is Mossad background and story content:

You’ll be given the option to start as a CIA or KGB operative at the start of the game, and after beating NG+ and seeing both sides of the story, you’ll unlock a playthrough as a Mossad agent.

And another interview: http://www.pcgamesinsider.biz/indie...-xcom-strategy-formula-with-phantom-doctrine/

The game features real-world events in an alternate timeline to tell its conspiracy-tinged and paranoid story. This, and the 1980s setting, was chosen to ground the game, while also positioning it between the hyper-technological landscape of the present and the primitive past.

"The initial creative idea was the conspiracy, then we started looking for a good setting for it," Krakowiak says.

"One of the early choices was the limit on plausibility and realism: using what we call ‘the X-Files scale’, we’ve decided to stick to the level of the government conspiracy and technothriller episodes but draw the line at the alien and the paranormal. Then the inspiration to reach for the treasure trove of actual, real-world insanity that is the Cold War struck and the rest is history, if you’ll pardon the pun. We wanted a setting before the advent of the total information warfare, when intelligence operations live or die on someone’s hacking skills and internet bandwidth. We wanted to explore a time when physical access was still the best way to acquire information and informants. On the other hand, we didn’t want to go too far into the past, to make sure the in-game world is recognisable and that there’s some interesting spy technology to play with.

"That brought us to the 1980s, a period some people incorrectly consider as the epilogue of the conflict. In fact, at the beginning of Cold War’s final decade, all bets were off on which way the decaying Soviet Union would jump. We’ve decided to focus on important, in some way iconic events which are still shrouded in mystery. Events where we could realistically depict behind the scenes machinations and put them in the context of the hostile global conspiracy. To that effect, after completing the campaign once, players gain access to a third background, Mossad, and special New Game Plus story content during their second playthrough."
 

Luka-boy

Arcane
Joined
Sep 24, 2014
Messages
1,629
Location
Asspain
"'Phantom Doctrine' Tackles Turn-Based Tactics Without Dice Rolls": http://fandom.wikia.com/articles/phantom-doctrine-without-die-rolls

Heh, New Game Plus bonus is Mossad background and story content:

You’ll be given the option to start as a CIA or KGB operative at the start of the game, and after beating NG+ and seeing both sides of the story, you’ll unlock a playthrough as a Mossad agent.

And another interview: http://www.pcgamesinsider.biz/indie...-xcom-strategy-formula-with-phantom-doctrine/

The game features real-world events in an alternate timeline to tell its conspiracy-tinged and paranoid story. This, and the 1980s setting, was chosen to ground the game, while also positioning it between the hyper-technological landscape of the present and the primitive past.

"The initial creative idea was the conspiracy, then we started looking for a good setting for it," Krakowiak says.

"One of the early choices was the limit on plausibility and realism: using what we call ‘the X-Files scale’, we’ve decided to stick to the level of the government conspiracy and technothriller episodes but draw the line at the alien and the paranormal. Then the inspiration to reach for the treasure trove of actual, real-world insanity that is the Cold War struck and the rest is history, if you’ll pardon the pun. We wanted a setting before the advent of the total information warfare, when intelligence operations live or die on someone’s hacking skills and internet bandwidth. We wanted to explore a time when physical access was still the best way to acquire information and informants. On the other hand, we didn’t want to go too far into the past, to make sure the in-game world is recognisable and that there’s some interesting spy technology to play with.

"That brought us to the 1980s, a period some people incorrectly consider as the epilogue of the conflict. In fact, at the beginning of Cold War’s final decade, all bets were off on which way the decaying Soviet Union would jump. We’ve decided to focus on important, in some way iconic events which are still shrouded in mystery. Events where we could realistically depict behind the scenes machinations and put them in the context of the hostile global conspiracy. To that effect, after completing the campaign once, players gain access to a third background, Mossad, and special New Game Plus story content during their second playthrough."
So the global conspiracy will be that Israel were the puppetmasters all along?
photo_2018-01-11_17-3iqshn.jpg
 
Developer
Joined
Aug 9, 2014
Messages
107
Without dice rolls?
Well, from the article itself, it sounds more like "with dice rolls for damage, but not for to-hit (as you always hit)".
IMO that is a much better solution, at least psychologically.
Plus, it makes positioning more important as you cannot hope for luck to save a badly positioned unit.

No dice rolls at all! (which is even less than in Hard West, which was almost none, except for init luck level)

Works like this:
Shooter selects a weapon and fire mode, this defines mindmg and maxdmg.
Target has a certain level of awareness. If you jump them (eg. you were in stealth until now, flashbang'em, suppress'em, etc.) it's very low, if there are "fresh" reinforcements they have high awareness level. You see their awareness bar, but that doesn't give you the exact number.
When you shoot, IF target has enough awareness to "dodge" (cost is a character param, subject to character development; so is maximum awareness, awareness regen), they dodge automatically, you deal mindmg. IF target doesn't dodge, you deal maxdmg.
Damage is initially reduced by armor (simple subtraction) and then divided by cover.
Weapons very with available fire modes (auto suppressess but eats lotsa ammo and requires movement points, burst deals maxdmg even if dodged as long as you dont sprint, headshot deals massive dmg but costs awareness, snap shot is there for no reason except I love old x-com) and the amplitude between min and maxdmg. For example a sniper rifle can deal 0-150, and a comparative shotgun 70-80. The average output is similar, but it plays very differently.
 

thesheeep

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Mar 16, 2007
Messages
9,939
Location
Tampere, Finland
Codex 2012 Strap Yourselves In Codex Year of the Donut Codex+ Now Streaming! Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Torment: Tides of Numenera Codex USB, 2014 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 BattleTech Bubbles In Memoria A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
Without dice rolls?
Well, from the article itself, it sounds more like "with dice rolls for damage, but not for to-hit (as you always hit)".
IMO that is a much better solution, at least psychologically.
Plus, it makes positioning more important as you cannot hope for luck to save a badly positioned unit.

No dice rolls at all! (which is even less than in Hard West, which was almost none, except for init luck level)

Works like this:
Shooter selects a weapon and fire mode, this defines mindmg and maxdmg.
Target has a certain level of awareness. If you jump them (eg. you were in stealth until now, flashbang'em, suppress'em, etc.) it's very low, if there are "fresh" reinforcements they have high awareness level. You see their awareness bar, but that doesn't give you the exact number.
When you shoot, IF target has enough awareness to "dodge" (cost is a character param, subject to character development; so is maximum awareness, awareness regen), they dodge automatically, you deal mindmg. IF target doesn't dodge, you deal maxdmg.
Damage is initially reduced by armor (simple subtraction) and then divided by cover.
Weapons very with available fire modes (auto suppressess but eats lotsa ammo and requires movement points, burst deals maxdmg even if dodged as long as you dont sprint, headshot deals massive dmg but costs awareness, snap shot is there for no reason except I love old x-com) and the amplitude between min and maxdmg. For example a sniper rifle can deal 0-150, and a comparative shotgun 70-80. The average output is similar, but it plays very differently.
Thanks for the explanation, sounds good.
I could imagine it giving off the impression of randomness anyway, though, considering you do not exactly see if the target has enough awareness or not (you can only do an educated guess).
 

SerratedBiz

Arcane
Joined
Mar 4, 2009
Messages
4,143
I could imagine it giving off the impression of randomness anyway, though, considering you do not exactly see if the target has enough awareness or not (you can only do an educated guess).

It's uncertain, not random. And given that they do have a bar that you can see and therefore gauge with enough experience, deciding how and when to exploit an enemy's awareness is very much a tactical decision and not a luck-based one.

I don't get if you're trying to say it might possibly maybe pass off as randomy to some people, but I don't see why that would matter at all.
 

ArchAngel

Arcane
Joined
Mar 16, 2015
Messages
19,885
Without dice rolls?
Well, from the article itself, it sounds more like "with dice rolls for damage, but not for to-hit (as you always hit)".
IMO that is a much better solution, at least psychologically.
Plus, it makes positioning more important as you cannot hope for luck to save a badly positioned unit.

No dice rolls at all! (which is even less than in Hard West, which was almost none, except for init luck level)

Works like this:
Shooter selects a weapon and fire mode, this defines mindmg and maxdmg.
Target has a certain level of awareness. If you jump them (eg. you were in stealth until now, flashbang'em, suppress'em, etc.) it's very low, if there are "fresh" reinforcements they have high awareness level. You see their awareness bar, but that doesn't give you the exact number.
When you shoot, IF target has enough awareness to "dodge" (cost is a character param, subject to character development; so is maximum awareness, awareness regen), they dodge automatically, you deal mindmg. IF target doesn't dodge, you deal maxdmg.
Damage is initially reduced by armor (simple subtraction) and then divided by cover.
Weapons very with available fire modes (auto suppressess but eats lotsa ammo and requires movement points, burst deals maxdmg even if dodged as long as you dont sprint, headshot deals massive dmg but costs awareness, snap shot is there for no reason except I love old x-com) and the amplitude between min and maxdmg. For example a sniper rifle can deal 0-150, and a comparative shotgun 70-80. The average output is similar, but it plays very differently.
I am not sure I like this. I played Hard West a fair bit. I even needed to do some missions multiple times due to bugs that killed my save and I needed to redo that specific campaign. Then I found out that harder missions mostly play out the same. I tried different moves in both attempts and in the end finished some of those missions using same tactic.
So little randomness made many missions feel like you need to do them in specific combination of moves and made the game feel more like a puzzle then Xcom game.

How do you plan to prevent that feeling building up in players in this game?
In Hard West, playing again same content was completely pointless as too many things were the same in next playthrough including on how to best do missions. Good Xcom like games were always games that you could play 100 times and feel like you almost got a new experience and new challenges to overcome.

And now it seems you are removing even more randomness from this next game, I don't think that is a good idea..
 

thesheeep

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Mar 16, 2007
Messages
9,939
Location
Tampere, Finland
Codex 2012 Strap Yourselves In Codex Year of the Donut Codex+ Now Streaming! Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Torment: Tides of Numenera Codex USB, 2014 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 BattleTech Bubbles In Memoria A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
How do you plan to prevent that feeling building up in players in this game?
In Hard West, playing again same content was completely pointless as too many things were the same in next playthrough including on how to best do missions. Good Xcom like games were always games that you could play 100 times and feel like you almost got a new experience and new challenges to overcome.
Can't speak for the devs, of course, but there are many more variables that can be randomized than hit% and damage.
Level parameters, AI, mission goals, enemies, ... I'd kinda expect that.

Otherwise I'd also think it would be weird.
 

As an Amazon Associate, rpgcodex.net earns from qualifying purchases.
Back
Top Bottom