KickStarter Phoenix Point - the new game from X-COM creator Julian Gollop

[ArchAngel]

Honestly I find 2-action system too simplistic, it does not account for some people being faster than others - compare to OG X-COM where some troopers were slowlards and others could run through the map in a few turns if they had the energy capability to do it.

That is not entirely true. Not sure where PP stands on this other than limiting the distance you can cover and still take a shot based on your weapon choice, but even nuXCOM has the movement (EU) / mobility (XCOM 2) stat that governs how far a soldier can move per turn. Soldiers mostly having the same range is not an inherent problem of the 2AP system but rather of nuXCOM soldiers always having the same stats.

They did implement mobility but everyone had same unless you used hidden potential option which was not default.

 

[luinthoron]

Honestly I find 2-action system too simplistic, it does not account for some people being faster than others - compare to OG X-COM where some troopers were slowlards and others could run through the map in a few turns if they had the energy capability to do it.

That is not entirely true. Not sure where PP stands on this other than limiting the distance you can cover and still take a shot based on your weapon choice, but even nuXCOM has the movement (EU) / mobility (XCOM 2) stat that governs how far a soldier can move per turn. Soldiers mostly having the same range is not an inherent problem of the 2AP system but rather of nuXCOM soldiers always having the same stats.

They did implement mobility but everyone had same unless you used hidden potential option which was not default.

What I said, yes. Well, some equipment does give you bonuses to it, so it's not quite always the same, and with WotC you also have the chance to increase stats through covert ops, but base stats still remain equal. Nonetheless, the point still remains that the mostly same movement range of the soldiers is not a limitation of the 2AP system but simply a question of the relevant stats.

 

[ArchAngel]

Honestly I find 2-action system too simplistic, it does not account for some people being faster than others - compare to OG X-COM where some troopers were slowlards and others could run through the map in a few turns if they had the energy capability to do it.

That is not entirely true. Not sure where PP stands on this other than limiting the distance you can cover and still take a shot based on your weapon choice, but even nuXCOM has the movement (EU) / mobility (XCOM 2) stat that governs how far a soldier can move per turn. Soldiers mostly having the same range is not an inherent problem of the 2AP system but rather of nuXCOM soldiers always having the same stats.

They did implement mobility but everyone had same unless you used hidden potential option which was not default.

What I said, yes. Well, some equipment does give you bonuses to it, so it's not quite always the same, and with WotC you also have the chance to increase stats through covert ops, but base stats still remain equal. Nonetheless, the point still remains that the mostly same movement range of the soldiers is not a limitation of the 2AP system but simply a question of the relevant stats.

Well new Xcom does not have an energy stat that is connected both to moving and shooting. High mobility characters can move more in nuXcom but they shoot just as many times as low mobility ones.

 

[Althorion]

Well new Xcom does not have an energy stat that is connected both to moving and shooting. High mobility characters can move more in nuXcom but they shoot just as many times as low mobility ones.

That seems OK to me. People may run or walk faster, but shooting speed is largely dependent on a weapon used.

Honestly I would rather see him go as much simulationist as he can, people who want to play casual already have games for them, but I understand him.

You can easily go overboard with simulationist approach, to the levels of ’sperging required that even the Codex won’t approach it. Let’s stick with ammo as an example—old UFO (XCOM, if you wish to use its American name) abstracted that on the strategic layer to cartridges, but you can easily go deeper. Let’s count individual bullets every time, Jagged Alliance style. And then make player balance the amount of bullets in each not-fully-used cartridge by hand. And let’s make buying ammo take that into account, so the player must buy bullets and cartridges on their own.
You could also make different vendors sell slightly different types of ammo. Like in real life, where you can have up to ten specific versions—normal one, training, cheap armour-piercing, expensive armour-piercing, long range, special sniper bullets for shooting through glass…

Some abstraction is required for a game not to be a chore. And, to be honest, out of all those things that Phoenix Point is supposed to abstract out, I will only miss TUs. The rest was never fun for me to begin with.

 

[Grotesque]

You can easily go overboard with simulationist approach

yeah, right, easily.
did the kickstarter campaign gathered around 10 million USD and I didn't know about it?
because only in that case someone can go easily overboard with the dreaded simulation-ist approach.
the more complex a game, the more money needed.

(XCOM, if you wish to use its American name)

yes we wish, thank you very much

so the way to support your point
is to make a retarded mental exercise where you take things to the extreme and expect that to validate your point?

because I can also make a retarded list of things original xcom choose to abstract and flutter it in the air or make examples of how easy it is to go overboard with dumbing down a franchise and make it stupid proof for the all powerful dollar.

 

[Althorion]

yeah, right, easily.
did the kickstarter campaign gathered around 10 million USD and I didn't know about it?
because only in that case someone can go easily overboard with the dreaded simulation-ist approach.
the more complex a game, the more money needed.

You could cut down money from other branches (graphics, QA etc.) and spend them on mechanical complexity. It would be a terrible idea, but you could do it. Hell, Jagged Alliance 2 did that and was somehow cheaper than 10M bucks.

because I can also make a retarded list of things original xcom choose to abstract and flutter it in the air or make examples of how easy it is to go overboard with dumbing down a franchise and make it stupid proof for the all powerful dollar.

And if I or someone else would made a point of ‘I hope they will make this game as simple as possible’ (you know, like the point I was answering to was ‘I would rather see him go as much simulationist as he can’) that would be a valid thing to say. All I’m doing is asking for some moderation and not going into full ‘muh simulation complexity’ mode… Game has to stay a game, not a pointless excercize in putting as much ‘real-life’ elements as the budget allows. Its main job is to be fun, not realistic.

 

[Grotesque]

out of all those things that Phoenix Point is supposed to abstract out, I will only miss TUs. The rest was never fun for me to begin with.

All I’m doing is asking for some moderation and not going into full ‘muh simulation complexity’ mode…

you're so full of shit.

 

[Taka-Haradin puolipeikko]

I pretty much agree with all of the above, though this:

The nonexistence of ammo means there are no ammo types.

could be circumvented by giving weapons different firing settings (AP,HE,Incendiary etc) where appropriate.

Nah. having more options means players get to make more choices. Making more choices leads to more learning opportunity and that leads to a more memorable and better game.

A game like BG had lots of crappy or very situational spells but trying them and learning which ones work better was one of the things that make the game memorably for people that played it for first time (or first few times).
Ammo goes into same category.

I might have made my point sloppily, but I don't see how what you bring up invalidates it.

Let's say that someone would make Judge Dredd themed tactical game called Mega-City 1: A Quiet Shift, where Judges would wield either Lawgivers with varying ammo that those pistols offer or more specialized equipment like those laser guns from Armageddon War. Specialized equipment would be just that, specialized, but lawgiver pistols could have varying loadouts (explosive, AP, ricochet and more exotic ones), that could be changed between missions. Let's say for example that a Judge could carry a Lawgiver with 12 clips of ammo with player defined ammo types or a special weapon + lawgiver with 2 clips, attack type could be changed with cost of TU, but there wouldn't be any other inventory management (picking up weapons could be restricted because gene-locks that are occasionally used in comics). Actually that kind of system could be quite close to Baldur's Gate's spell management, where in both player would pick his choises from list to his limited load out that char stats allow between missions/resting.

 

[Grotesque]

Saturday, February 3 at 9 AM - 10 AM PST

 

[ArchAngel]

Too much talking! We want to see how the new version with ballistics implemented plays! :D

 

[Grotesque]

Did Gollop had anything to do with Terror from the Deep, the best from the series from an artistic point of view?

 

[ArchAngel]

Did Gollop had anything to do with Terror from the Deep, the best from the series from an artistic point of view?

Of course. He was main designer for all 3 Xcom/UFO games.

 

[Taka-Haradin puolipeikko]

According to Mobygames Gollop brothers are credited for "Original concept" for TftD. Design for TftD goes for one Stephen Goss.
On two others Julian is listed as Designer for UFO and Lead Design for Apocalypse.

 

[Grotesque]

A very fond memory I have and the moment I truly fell in love with Terror from the Deep was when I accidentally accessed the inventory while I was on top of a fallen aquanaut and I saw this

and then I discovered that I can pick alien corpses also and their items and get the hell out of there without killing all of them.

And here we are, 23 years later where there are people complaining about the invasion of the simulationist aspect in a game that wants to be its spiritual successor.
I don't even...

 

[Assisted Living Godzilla]

Removing ammo was the single great decision Firaxis made with nuXcom among other shit. And Gollop wants it back...

Conserving ammo in a mission because you wanted to bring other gear along your ammunition (so you don't have as much) should play a tactical role in the game.
The same backwards, the player should have the liberty to stuff himself with ammo is he wants to level a building's wall with his firearm/laser etc. and create a breach-point.
Not having an ammo limitation and fire that grenade launcher or rocket launcher indefinitely is overpowered in a game that wants range to be important.

Also the existence of ammo scarcity in mission could make the existence of robotic weapon platforms (like S.H.I.V in 2013 XCOM) more valuable and more full of impact gameplay wise with its large ammo reserve and firepower.
Ammo scarcity could mean that the body of your own soldier could be a gold mine if you ran out of ammo, creating situations where tough choices have to be made.

The nonexistence of ammo means there are no ammo types.
And ammo types could prove very important in the game where some monsters would be more vulnerable to a specific ammo type because of their morphology.

The problem with micromanagement for those who loathe it because they played too much dumbed down XCOM could be easily resolved with the ability for the player to make custom gear lists.

Your whole point about rocket launchers doesn't even make sense given this wasn't a problem in XCOM. Having a system like XCOM doesn't mean you can't have ammo limitations. Not having ammo also doesn't mean you couldn't run out of ammo either. Now that isn't the way they went with it in XCOM for the normal weapons; (although you do get a set amount of rockets and grenades) but Full Spectrum Warrior, which just gives you an ammo percentage as opposed to an actual number of bullets and an inventory to manage, was a game without ammo where you could run out of ammo. So even under a "no ammo" system you could still do something like you're talking about where you'd be able to collect ammo off downed enemies, do something like take the ammo percentage they've got left on their body to get your percentage back up to 100. Not having a true inventory might also make something like that work better with some kind of stress system, as not being able to collect all the ammo off a body to simulate them being in a hurry would be less aggravating if it said you only grabbed this precentage of what was there because you were in a rush as opposed to dragging something from one inventory screen into another only for it to not get there for exactly the same reason. Extra gear Vs more ammo could even be done in a system that doesn't have you always needing to micromanage ammo by having gear that lets you swap out ammo pouches for things like more grenades, medpacs, or whatever other kinds of equipment they think up to take into battle...with ammo pouches raising the default ammo percentage above 100.

Not having ammo doesn't mean you can't have different ammo types either. In a game like XCOM that doesn't have ammo and is a class based system they could have easily had a number of different ammo types as unlockable skills; likewise they could have done it as an individual upgrade to a weapon, or a broad upgrade to a specific kind of weapon. So say you've got your Assault Class shotgun guy, you could do any of the above things I said to give him a long range explosive type of ammo like a Frag12; just have the ammo switch work like a reload, trade off is since it's an explosive you could damage yourself at too close of a range or damage friendlies too close to the target. If alt-ammunition is too powerful to be unlimited like the normal ammo then put some kind of cap on them like many a games that have unlimited normal ammo but also have power-ups.

 

[Jimmious]

In a game like XCOM that doesn't have ammo and is a class based system they could have easily had a number of different ammo types as unlockable skills;

This is implemented in XCOM2 btw.
*Not only as skills of course but as "equipment"

 

[Taka-Haradin puolipeikko]

 

[LESS T_T]

https://www.facebook.com/PhoenixPointGame/videos/559813921065519/

 

[Alienman]

They keep using sites that nobody wants to use for these things.

 

[Mustawd]

Agree. Why doesnt he just use twitch? I'm not gonna use my real FB account, and I don't care enough to make a fake one.

 

[thesheeep]

They keep using sites that nobody wants to use for these things.

Yeah, Facebook for gaming-related stuff is a bit weird.

 

[Assisted Living Godzilla]

Weirder because they have a YouTube account, but haven't updated it with anything since August.

 

[Grotesque]

Very good for using facebook because I don't have a twitch account.

 

[thesheeep]

Very good for using facebook because I don't have a twitch account.

You don't need a Twitch account to watch on Twitch.
I think even posting is allowed (if the channel allows it).

 

[Grotesque]

Very good for using facebook because I don't have a twitch account.

You don't need a Twitch account to watch on Twitch.
I think even posting is allowed (if the channel allows it).

I doubt you can post without an account.