Eternity Pillars of Eternity II Beta Thread [GAME RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

[Infinitron]

Do you need a room aweigh

 

[aweigh]

so a fightter using bash-shield every knock down has 2x trigger chances.

all that said i have no idea if this as changed meaningfully in poe2. Shields are still mysterious to most poe players and the exact numerical formulas they ipact.

 

[aweigh]

remember: recovery (poe1) can come from MOVING (yes, moving during combat accrues recovery)

and the normal recovery listed for different items, say for example the difference of a 2handed weapon swing taking 33 frames more to reach standing idle animation or some shitttttttttttt (i forgot exact frame numbers

bypassing that shit via strategic use of char-class abilities is like a part of aking poe1 combat more fun.

 

[Lacrymas]

Full attacks worked the same way in 1, aweigh. At least I don't think anything has changed.

 

[aweigh]

assuming switching weapons still adds RECOVERY accrual the DND-style malus for using bows and arbalest and arquebus in MELEE range : this means more micro-management.

since only blunder and pistols are fine used in melee-range (no new malus) welp, ranged itemization is



ALREADY DEAD BOYS. BURIAL FOR BOWS.

they tried giving crossbows new crit-build properties, and i admit 100%:

FINALLY DEX AFFECTS RANGED WEAPON RELOADING INCLUDING GUNS. WEEE

BUT come who the hell is going to be micro-managing poe2s probably 700 000 thousand combats bothering to have range users be sure to switch weaps in time before awful RTS game collision shenanigans says it reached u, etc.}}

,i assume this stuff is where PARTY MEMBER A.I. SCRIPT EDITING will save us from this (among TONS MORE bloated extrapolations exercising a gall fronted against making player be clicking SOOOMETHING!!! every single possible nano fucking second)--

--ahem, yes at least ai scripts will alleviate SOME annoyances from the BIG amount of OVER-DESIGN present all over the BETA.

i was reading in OBS forums apparently Sawyer took it upon himself to eliminate all and any ways of achieving those Zero Recovery Builds everyone had after doing WM 1 and WM 2 and crafting durgan armor.

i skimmed posts bu basicallyt:

recovery accrual, in poe2 and in its myriad elements, will now feature some types of un-modifiable properties, meaning some game things like:

a spells recovery: from the post some (if not all why not) sawyer made sure even IF breaking game values each different game action will have recovery baselines which are the lowest attainable.

 

[aweigh]

OH,, also dual wielding a gun + 1handed weapon gives u the dual-wielding modifier that makes both weapons swing gammas comparable to a single 1handed weapon swinging, like in poe 1 u kno //

so yes, currently BETA guns if paired ith a 1h weapon receive -50 % to recovery-after-attacking, same as if using 2 1h weapons for DW.

soooooo yep

EDIT: FOR the record in nexus there is a poe1 mod for dual-wielding guns,, and pairing the with all 1h weapons... and he made sure to prevent that from happening in his mod: because he knew its DUmB.

obsi cant even mods what avellone no he left what HE LEFT oh btw kotor 3 man DISNEY APPROVED IT please remember to spit on MCAs portrait DISNEY said sure do it i mean TLJ // is dead impregnate witth global recovery counters pls!

 

[Trashos]

Tbh, I do not remember how everything worked in PoE1. But the problems with complexity in PoE1 were:
a) Diseases (or whatever they were called) could stack up, the overall effect was near impossible to calculate even for nobel laureate mathematicians, and only lasted a couple of seconds.
b) Recovery times were opaque.
c) I didn't have to calculate any of the above anyway in order to beat the game on PotD without reloading.

I like complexity and micromanagement, but the above constitute meaningless complexity, and there was disproportionately little micromanagement needed. Complexity only has a reason for existence if it leads to interesting strategic decisions, trade-offs, and changing tactics. Otherwise what's the point.

Ideally, some (not all) of the systems should be restraining in terms of viable strategies, so that not everything works (which would make strategy unimportant). So the systems I am reading about here sound more promising. Of course, being overly restrictive will lead to a single strategy being always the sole solution (or an acceptable "best overall" solution), which is the objection that has been mention here for Penetration, as far as I understand. That's a balancing issue, and my first impression on some numbers that were mentioned is that it *may* be a real issue. If high Penetration works best on many enemies and doesn't have serious problems on the rest, everyone is going to default on high penetration to solve all problems and complexity goes out the window.

 

[AwesomeButton]

The most annoying thing in PoE by far. A complex system of afflictions and modifiers to combat-related properties of characters, and no clear way to tell what's what, why is it so much, and what comes from where. Also, I think it was considerably overengineered. The IE games were, at the same time, simpler to play and combat in the adapted RTS engine with the weird looking delays between swings was more readable. Whether it was more fun... to a newcomer to both, say, BG and PoE, I'd say yes. To someone who knows the system inside and out, probably less so, but I've yet to see one player say that he enjoys PoE combat more than IE combat.

 

[Lacrymas]

I don't think there's a reason to overthink the afflictions in PoE1. What you want to do is stack as many different ones as possible on the mobs, that's it. They ARE overengineered, but only from the perspective of the developers, as players we don't need to think about that at all. Being able to go through Triple Crown without meticulously thinking about that and employing the math behind them is evidence enough of that. Buffs were a little more annoying, having to remember or write down what stacks with what and what doesn't.

 

[Kruno]

So basically what you are saying is that Sawyer made it impossible to optimise a build with items?

 

[Sensuki]

I can't say I don't prefer it that way.

I prefer gameplay to playing character sheet

 

[CptMace]

Check Diablo III, you might love it.

 

[Infinitron]

Complexity only has a reason for existence if it leads to interesting strategic decisions, trade-offs, and changing tactics. Otherwise what's the point.

It's interesting to see PoE being criticized from the direction of not being "gamist" enough. Action/Recovery time is one area where Sawyer unquestionably went in the direction of more rather than less simulationism.

Ultimate gamist RPG = PoE attributes with IE 6-second rounds. Well actually no, ultimate gamist RPG = PoE attributes with turn-based combat.

As for Afflictions, those of you reading this thread might be interested in revisiting the exchange I had with Trashos about them back in 2016: http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/inde...expansion-thread.100006/page-151#post-4445835

 

[Haplo]

To someone who knows the system inside and out, probably less so, but I've yet to see one player say that he enjoys PoE combat more than IE combat.

I would be one.
I vastly prefer PoE combat to IE combat. As well as character building and development. Even itemization.

 

[Lacrymas]

That would be the wrong opinion. PoE's combat is ultimately very simple, static and straightforward, regardless of the overdesigned nature of it. With SCS (and this is important) PoE can't even begin to come close to the dynamicism, structure and breadth of tactical options that the IE games give you. I'm mentioning SCS because that's what forces you to be creative and see what the combat is capable of, even SoD's final battle on Insanity is much more challenging and brutal than anything PoE's system can muster. The most egregious problem with the IE games is, like we've repeated forever, Mages. Haplo, I think you are confusing the almost equal viability of all classes, the much more expanded character development and more buttons to click with each class as "the combat". You don't take into account the automatic nature of most of those buttons and their functionality as essentially damage cooldowns (Spiritshifting, Frenzy, Barbaric Blow, Flames of Devotion, Torment's Reach, etc. etc.) with no use outside of increasing damage and more buttons to click. The class design and gameplay are very MMO-y tbh.

 

[aweigh]

being completely open here, hat most puts me off in the BEtA is simply dat everything looks a lot smaller in proportions

also the game graphics (all on high obv) look kind of mushy and ironically less painterly or rather less evocative than Tyranny gfx hich ere softened in looks and design but succeeded in presenting a style.

poe2 beta areas all look like poe1 generic fantasy pattische... except even less inspired or energized than previous game, hich frankly is actually quite saddening

 

[Haplo]

Well, I would prefer if PoE forced the exploiting of enemy weaknesses more. With far more drastic spread between weak and strong defenses. Lacrymas, you are not incorrect that a lot of these abilities are no-brainers, automatic use.

At the same time the removal of prebuffing leads to some important tradeoffs: Do I protect my party/most important character from ailments the enemies can apply, do I buff their accuracy - or maybe I debuff the enemies and or/nuke them? Sometimes you also need to heal/withdraw/cure/revive some chars. Can't really do all of these things.

 

[Maculo]

The Beta Speed Mod thread on the Obsidian forum is pretty neat: https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/96158-beta-speed-mod/page-4

Tweaks cast times and spell balance for anyone interested. It should at least make caster's more tolerable. Here are MaxQuest's change notes:

Spoiler

• General
  • Changed cast and recovery time categories:
    
    
    
    
    
    
  • Decreased cast duration of summoned weapons from 5.0s/0 to 1.5s/0
  • Quickened a set of cc spells, cipher powers, and underpowered damaging spells
• Cipher
  • Rank 1
    • Mind Wave (shred) (interrupts onHit): 3s/4s -> 1.5s/3.0s *
    • Whisper of Treason (deception): 5s/3s -> 3s/1.5s *
    • Valorous Echoes (echo): 3s/4s -> 1.5s -> 1.5s *
    • Antipathetic Field (shred): 3s/4s -> 3s/1.5s *
    • Soul Shock (echo): 3s/4s -> 3s/1.5s *
    • Tenuous Grasp (deception): 3s/4s -> 1.5s/1.5s *
    • Eyestrike (deception, gaze): 5s/2s -> 3s/1.5s *
  • Rank 2
    • Phantom Foes (deception): 3s/4s -> 3s/1.5s *
    • Mind Blades (shred): 3s/4s -> 3s/1.5s *
    • Recall Agony (shred): 5s/2s -> 1.5s/1.5s *
    • Psychovampiric Shield (echo): 3s/4s -> 1.5s/1.5s *
    • Amplified Thrust (echo): 3s/4s -> 1.5s/1.5s *
    • Mental Binding (deception): 5s/3s -> 3s/1.5s *
  • Rank 3
    • Secret Horrors (deception): 3s/4s -> 3s/1.5s *
    • Soul Ingition (shred): 5s/3s -> 3s/1.5s *
    • Pain Link (shred): 3s/4s -> 1.5s/1.5s *
    • Ectopsychic Echo (echo): 3s/4s -> 3s/1.5s *
    • Fractured Volition (deception): 3s/4s -> 1.5s/1.5s *
    • Puppet Master (deception): 5s/3s -> 4.5s/1.5s
  • Rank 4
    • Wild Leech (deception): 3s/4s -> 1.5s/1.5s *
    • Mind Lance (shred) (interrupts onHit): 3s/4s -> 1.5s/3.0s *
    • Silent Scream (shred) (interrupts onHit): 3s/4s -> 1.5s/3.0s *
    • Pain Block (echo): 0.5s/4s -> 1.5s/1.5s *
    • Echoing Shield (echo): 3s/4s -> 1.5s/1.5s *
    • Body Attunement (deception): 3s/4s -> 3s/1.5s *
    • Going Between: ? (this power is missing in beta3)
  • Rank 5
    • Detonate (shred): 5s/3s -> 4.5s/1.5s
    • Borrowed Instinct Lance (deception): 3s/4s -> 3s/1.5s *
    • Ring Leader (deception): 3s/4s -> 4.5s/1.5s *
    • Tactical Meld: ? (this power is missing in beta3)
• Wizard
  • Rank 1
    • Arkemyr's Dazzling Lights (illusions): 3s/4s -> 3s/3s
    • Thrust of Tattered Veils (evocation) (interrupts onHit): 0.5s/4s -> 0.5/3s
    • Minoletta's Minor Missiles (evocation): 0.5s/4s -> 1.5/1.5s *
    • Wizard's Double (illusions): 0.4s/0s -> 0.5s/0s
    • Chill Fog (transmutation): 5s/3s -> 3s/3s *
    • Slicken (transmutation) (interrupts onHit): 5s/3s -> 3s/3s *
    • Jolting Touch (transmutation): 3s/4s -> 3s/3s
    • Kalakoth's Sunless Graps (conjuration): 3s/4s -> 1.5s/1.5s *
    • Concelhaut's Parasitic Staff (conjuration): 5s/0s -> 1.5s/0s *
    • Ghost Blades (conjuration): 3s/4s -> 1.5s/1.5s *
    • Fleet Feet (enchanting): 0.4s/0s -> 0.5s/0s
    • Fan of Flames (evocation): 3s/4s -> 3s/3s
    • Eldritch Aim (enchanting): 3s/0s ->0.5s/0 *
    • Spirit Shield (enchanting): 0.4s/0s -> 0.5s/0s
  • Rank 2
    • Curse of Blackened Sight (illusions): 5s/3s -> 3s/3s *
    • Miasma of Dull Mindness (illusions): 3s/4s -> 3s/3s
    • Mirrored Image (illusions): 0.4s/0s -> 0.5s/0s
    • Bewildering Spectacle (illusions): 3s/4s -> 3s/3.0s
    • Fetid Caress (transmutation): 5.0s/3.0s -> 3s/3.0s *
    • Grimoire Slam (transmutation) (interrupts onHit): 1.1s/4s -> 1.1s/3.0s
    • Combusting Wounds (transmutation): 3s/4s -> 3s/3s
    • Concelhaut's Corrosive Siphon (transmutation): 3s/4s -> 3s/3s
    • Necroctic Lance (conjuration)(interrupts onCrit): 5s/3s -> 4.5s/1.5s
    • Merciless Gaze (enchanting): 3s/0s -> 0.5s/0s
    • Arcane Veil (conjuration): 0.4s/0s -> 0.5s/0s
    • Binding Web (conjuration): 5s/3s -> 3s/3s
    • Ray of Fire (evocation): 5s/3s -> 3s/3s
    • Rolling Flame (evocation) (interrupts onHit): 5s/3s -> 4.5s/1.5s
    • Bulwark (enchanting): 0.4s/0s -> 0.5s/0s
    • Infuse with Vital Essense (enchanting): 0.4s/0s -> 0.5s/0s
• Priest
  • Various
    • All spiritual weapons: 5.0s/0 -> 1.5s/0s *
• Druid
  • Various
    • Firebrand: 5.0s/0 -> 1.5s/0s *
• Chanter
  • Summons
    • Skeletons: 5s/3s -> 3s/3s *
    • Ogres: 8s/2s -> 3s/4.5s *
    • Phantoms: 8s/2s -> 6s/0s *
    • Drakes: 8s/2s -> 6s/0s *
    • Wisps: 8s/2s -> 6s/0s *
    • Reasoning:
      - having [quick cast, 3s+ recovery] and [slow cast, but no recovery] categories will allow chanters to specialize. A squshy chanter might prefer the former, due to faster summoning, and because they are melee. While heavy-armored chanters will likely prefer the later, as they won't have to suffer from recovery penalty.
      - Ogres have an extra 1.5s recovery because they have 25s duration compared to 12s of skeletons.
• Notes:
  - Here are listed the spells I have iterated through so far.
  - With * are marked spells that required cast or recovery category change in my opinion.

 

[Lacrymas]

Yeah, I agree that the removal of prebuffing is a definite step up in many ways, the least of which is the removal of fidgety casting of each buff before every major fight that SCS demands of you to do anyway.

 

[Trashos]

I don't think we even need to consider SCS in this.

BG2-SOA: complex rules that lead to complex strategies/tactics
PoE1: complex rules that lead to simple strategies/tactics
(CV4: very complex rules that lead to very complex strategies)
(Chess: simple rules that lead to extremely complex strategies/tactics)
PoE2: complex rules that lead to ?

An engineer would say that PoE1 is the "less elegant" of the bunch. Hopefully PoE2 will not have the same fate.

But my point here is the following: PoE2 already has complex systems. Have the decency and elegance, as a developer, to offer us (the need for) proportionately complex tactics/strategies on PotD.

Complexity only has a reason for existence if it leads to interesting strategic decisions, trade-offs, and changing tactics. Otherwise what's the point.

I should take it that PoE's complexity is only there for role-playing and challenge doesn't come into the equation?

 

[FreeKaner]

Simplification for simplification's sake is not good as complexity for complexity's sake isn't. I agree though that PoE2 seems to have gotten bloated in complexity without any result in substance, perhaps ironically after the amount of streamlining they did.

In either case what's important is depth and breadth.

 

[Infinitron]

I should take it that PoE's complexity is only there for role-playing and challenge doesn't come into the equation?

No, but you should take it that not every mechanic, attribute or element in a full-scale RPG is going to be a distinct gamechanger.

Really, how could it? How could a mechanic that lets you change your character's speed in terms of milliseconds and number of frames not offer a lot of choices that don't mean much? Of course your character being 0.1 seconds faster at doing something doesn't change much, of course it's "fake complexity" that doesn't lead to "changing tactics". And yet, it's not hard to argue that your character's speed is a pretty essential thing to let you determine and control in a a RTwP RPG.

 

[Haplo]

I don't think we even need to consider SCS in this.

BG2-SOA: complex rules that lead to complex strategies/tactics

Honestly what complex strategies/tactics do you have in mind? Except the generous use of Breach-type spells for mages?

Okay, I've beaten Drizzt in BG1 by summoning a horde of skeletons. Felt kinda cheap though. I remember needing to tool, eqiup and prepare my party for the Kangaxx fight. That was cool. But honestly all other encounters I remember were prebuff routine, then go trough the same motions - similar as in PoE, really. Only with prebuff tedium removed in PoE.
Yes, the combat flow was much cleaner and clearer. I liked that. But that's partially because it was a far slower, more methodical game and non-casters were extremly boring.

Maybe SCS indeed does shake things up. Too bad I don't really have any interest to play 2nd ed. ADnD now, when far better rulesets exist.

 

[Lacrymas]

They are not boring, they are pieces in a chess set and have a functionality as such. Would you say rooks are boring because they can't move around as much as the queen? This magnifying glass-like treatment of the classes is one of the reasons PoE is such a mind-numbing chaos. Besides, I'd say only single-class Fighters have really nothing to do in BG because they have no special properties. Rangers and Paladins eventually get access to the Druid and Cleric spell list respectively, Thieves require special micromanagement to get the most out of their backstabs. Ranged characters have access to all kinds of arrows that need to be taken care of to maximize their effectiveness, etc. They just aren't as busy as their PoE1 equivalents. Ironically enough, this progression is what makes each class individually stand out more and have a gameplay niche.

You really need to play the entire BG saga with SCS.

 

[Haplo]

Rangers and Paladins eventually get access to the Druid and Cleric spell list respectively

Weak low-level spells that I never used.

Thieves require special micromanagement to get the most out of their backstabs.

True, but that's busywork really. I vastly prefer 3rd ed. rogues.

Ranged characters have access to elemental arrows that need to be taken care of to maximize their effectiveness, etc.

Consumables? I always thought they are for hoarding, not for using. Never even considered such things.

They just aren't as busy as their PoE1 equivalents. Ironically enough, this progression is what makes each class individually stand out more and have a gameplay niche.

Here I strongly disagree.

You really need to play the entire BG saga with SCS.

Perhaps I should.