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Eternity Pillars of Eternity II Beta Thread [GAME RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

Grotesque

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This is the most retarded post I have read in 2018, so gratuitous and lacking in self-awareness too. Congratulations.
Welcome to this imbecile's posts.
When I see someone's "village idiot" tag I wonder what the fuck he could've said more retarded than this cretin.


Knights of the chalice? More like knights of the bad graphics lol
The same as a cosmic particle that travels at 0.99999991 the speed of light "sees" the Earth flat of only 17 km thickness, the same someone that was 37 years old in 1992 sees those graphics as exquisite. :)
It's relative.
 

Prime Junta

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There's nothing wrong with that in a class-based system. I swear the majority of PoE players actually hate class-based RPGs.

larper detected

The thing wrong with it is that it renders the attributes meaningless. If half the stats are useless for any given class, then in a point-buy system you'll always minmax. Every fighter will be 18 18 18 3 3 3, or a shitty fighter. The only reason to have stats is for larping; gameplay-wise you might as well get rid of them and roll the bonuses and penalties directly into the classes. And the same applies however much you slice and dice the system, e.g. with prestige classes with arbitrary requirements: you always end up distributing your stats to a rigid pattern.

If you want stat distribution to be a meaningful part of character-building, all stats need to be relevant to all classes.
 
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Sacred82

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The thing wrong with it is that it renders the attributes meaningless. If half the stats are useless for any given class, then in a point-buy system you'll always minmax. Every fighter will be 18 18 18 3 3 3, or a shitty fighter. The only reason to have stats is for larping; gameplay-wise you might as well get rid of them and roll the bonuses and penalties directly into the classes.

only in the case of gamey combat attributes, gg
 

Prime Junta

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One attribute affecting all damage puts it above other attributes, and indeed you can see in most builds people maximise might at cost of everything else.

wtfamireading.gif

In P1, DEX is more important than MIG to most builds. INT is more important than MIG for most classes with AoE abilities. And so on and so forth.
 

Parabalus

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There being a single stat that affects all damage dealt is bad both as gameplay design and from rp perspective. Putting spell damage and heal into resolve was a step in the right direction. Firearms being disconnected from attributes, having really high damage and penetration but very long reloading times would make them interesting choices as burst sticks as well.

Of course that would go against streamlining. Daily reminder streamlining is the worst. Especially when people equate streamlining with balance, they are related in that former makes latter easier but they are not equal.

Then you are back at the IE system, with several useless attributes per class.

You could give attributes actual effects that dumping them has negative consequences instead of being literally irrelevant. One attribute affecting all damage puts it above other attributes, and indeed you can see in most builds people maximise might at cost of everything else.

There are pretty steep consequences for dumping RES or CON to 3 in PoE1, if anyone as much as sneezes near you you get stunlocked.

There being a single stat that affects all damage dealt is bad both as gameplay design and from rp perspective. Putting spell damage and heal into resolve was a step in the right direction. Firearms being disconnected from attributes, having really high damage and penetration but very long reloading times would make them interesting choices as burst sticks as well.

Of course that would go against streamlining. Daily reminder streamlining is the worst. Especially when people equate streamlining with balance, they are related in that former makes latter easier but they are not equal.

Then you are back at the IE system, with several useless attributes per class.

There's nothing wrong with that in a class-based system. I swear the majority of PoE players actually hate class-based RPGs.

If there is only one way to pick attributes for classes, why even have them in the first place? Only for flavour, pretty much.
 
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Codex Year of the Donut
There being a single stat that affects all damage dealt is bad both as gameplay design and from rp perspective. Putting spell damage and heal into resolve was a step in the right direction. Firearms being disconnected from attributes, having really high damage and penetration but very long reloading times would make them interesting choices as burst sticks as well.

Of course that would go against streamlining. Daily reminder streamlining is the worst. Especially when people equate streamlining with balance, they are related in that former makes latter easier but they are not equal.

Then you are back at the IE system, with several useless attributes per class.

You could give attributes actual effects that dumping them has negative consequences instead of being literally irrelevant. One attribute affecting all damage puts it above other attributes, and indeed you can see in most builds people maximise might at cost of everything else.
might was nearly a dump stat for most builds
 
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Codex Year of the Donut
One attribute affecting all damage puts it above other attributes, and indeed you can see in most builds people maximise might at cost of everything else.

wtfamireading.gif

In P1, DEX is more important than MIG to most builds. INT is more important than MIG for most classes with AoE abilities. And so on and so forth.
PER after it got buffed is the most valuable stat for the majority of classes.
 

Prime Junta

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PER after it got buffed is the most valuable stat for the majority of classes.

Nah. It's valuable and if you dump it you'll need to work your way around the accuracy deficit with talents, abilities, and items, but for anything vaguely damage-oriented, DEX is king. PER is only super-valuable if you're going for a crit machine.
 

AwesomeButton

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PER after it got buffed is the most valuable stat for the majority of classes.

Nah. It's valuable and if you dump it you'll need to work your way around the accuracy deficit with talents, abilities, and items, but for anything vaguely damage-oriented, DEX is king. PER is only super-valuable if you're going for a crit machine.
What a loss - a whole 1 Accuracy per point, while you get 3 Accuracy per level.
 

santino27

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PER after it got buffed is the most valuable stat for the majority of classes.

Nah. It's valuable and if you dump it you'll need to work your way around the accuracy deficit with talents, abilities, and items, but for anything vaguely damage-oriented, DEX is king. PER is only super-valuable if you're going for a crit machine.
I may be misremembering, but I believe there are a few damage builds that don't push dex (they don't use it as a dump stat, but don't inflate it past 10 or at most 13 either), because there's a soft cap on attack speed and dual wielders with the appropriate traits can get there even with moderate dex.

Regardless, I'd say the only stat from POE1 that really needs help is RES, and it sounds like they're still aware of that.
 
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Prime Junta

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I may be misremembering, but I believe there are quite a few damage builds that don't push dex (they don't use it as a dump stat, but don't inflate it past 10 or at most 13 either), because there's a soft cap on attack speed and dual wielders with the appropriate traits can get there even with moderate dex.

True, there's always an exception. Although to my knowledge "quite a few" is a bit of an exaggeration, since what you're saying is true (to my knowledge) only for that one particular type of damage build, i.e. fast-attacking dual-wielder.
 

santino27

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My team has the sexiest and deadliest waifus you can recruit.
I may be misremembering, but I believe there are quite a few damage builds that don't push dex (they don't use it as a dump stat, but don't inflate it past 10 or at most 13 either), because there's a soft cap on attack speed and dual wielders with the appropriate traits can get there even with moderate dex.

True, there's always an exception. Although to my knowledge "quite a few" is a bit of an exaggeration, since what you're saying is true (to my knowledge) only for that one particular type of damage build, i.e. fast-attacking dual-wielder.
True enough. Modified the OP.
 

Ulfhednar

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"Every character having several bad attributes was a superior system design" - RPG Codex.

Minsc
STR 18/93
DEX 16
CON 16
INT 8
WIS 6
CHA 9

High Weapon Damage :shittydog:! Natural AC bonus +M!! Hit Points :ehue:!!!

Hmm... it's almost like the last three attributes have no consequences for this character's class as far as game mechanics are concerned, but their low values are useful for defining the personality of the character. He has low intelligence and wisdom because he was hit on the head, and people don't know how to interact with him because he talks to a hamster.

"Let me respec my companions because I'm triggered by bad attributes" - also RPG Codex.

Pallegina.

Mig - 12
Con - 13
Dex - 11
Per - 14
Int - 13
Res - 15

Wow these numbers really help me understand the personality of this character! Clearly she is... umm... sort of resolved... maybe... about something.

It's almost like these attribute values were intentionally chosen to be between a range of 10 and 16 that has very few exceptions in the stat spread of PoE companions. Could it be that the developers chose these intentionally average values because the talent system allows you to build characters into a variety of potential roles that have various mechanical requirements? Is it also possible that Pallegina could be a tank/alpha striker/support character mechanically without changing anything about her story, and that giving players some leverage to define her mechanical aspects would not, in fact, change much about her character?

Do character stats in DnD and in PoE, because of their similarity (or despite it), actually represent the same things?
 

Parabalus

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PER after it got buffed is the most valuable stat for the majority of classes.

Nah. It's valuable and if you dump it you'll need to work your way around the accuracy deficit with talents, abilities, and items, but for anything vaguely damage-oriented, DEX is king. PER is only super-valuable if you're going for a crit machine.
What a loss - a whole 1 Accuracy per point, while you get 3 Accuracy per level.

Do you understand that enemy defenses scale per level?
 
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Sacred82

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Wow these numbers really help me understand the personality of this character! Clearly she is... umm... sort of resolved... maybe... about something.

You're missing the point, PoE attributes have nothing to do with the physical realities of that world, which we really know shit about. It's really smarter in that way to be neutral in their attributes to not confuse the shit out of people. "Muh high might wizard, y he so scrawny?"

Also they're probably supposed to be gimps. If I had to guess I'd say the idea never was to have a party consisting only of companions.
 

Tygrende

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What a loss - a whole 1 Accuracy per point, while you get 3 Accuracy per level.
That's a rather ignorant way of looking at this. Enemies get 3 points in every defense per level. What truly matters is the difference between the attacker's accuracy and the defender's defense, so every single point counts, especially considering that the bonus from Perception stacks with everything. Not to mention that the difference between maxed and dumped Perception can add up to 18 accuracy, which is huge.

Accuracy is extremaly important in PoE, it's probably the overall most important stat in the entire game for multiple reasons. Missing can be removed entirely if your accuracy is 15 points higher than the enemy's defense, which is invalueable for disabling effects and because missing cripples your damage output. Every point of accuracy is also effectively 1% more crit chance. There's not a single build that wouldn't benefit from more accuracy, unless it's 90 points higher than enemy's defense.
 

FreeKaner

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Pallegina.

Mig - 12
Con - 13
Dex - 11
Per - 14
Int - 13
Res - 15

Wow these numbers really help me understand the personality of this character! Clearly she is... umm... sort of resolved... maybe... about something.

Sawyer talked about this somewhere but I can't remember where now. Pallegina's stats were deliberate (and are not optimised for a Paladin). She has decent per and res being a birdlike paladin, rest is so-so. I remember also he said that they avoided exceptional stats unless character is exceptional in that regard, such as Durance having exceptional resolve.
 

Haplo

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Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire
And for the record Pierre made some dungeons in KOTC lock you in :D

Would fucking love if this was a thing in PoE 2

Sure it's immersion breaking as fuck but at least it lifts some weight of the devs balancing encounters in the dungeon

How is it immersion breaking? It's awesome! Have been advocating such solutions for a long time.
 

Ulfhednar

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You're missing the point, PoE attributes have nothing to do with the physical realities of that world, which we really know shit about. It's really smarter in that way to be neutral in their attributes to not confuse the shit out of people.

That was my point - pardon the sarcasm. I think PoE's stats are generally more abstracted than AD&D - whether or not that's a bad thing is another argument.

Also they're probably supposed to be gimps. If I had to guess I'd say the idea never was to have a party consisting only of companions.

I don't think that was the intention - I think the intention was that the companions would be flexible stats-wise for you to build them into different roles. It just turned out that they always ended up being somewhat gimped for whatever role you built them into.
Sawyer talked about this somewhere but I can't remember where now. Pallegina's stats were deliberate (and are not optimised for a Paladin). She has decent per and res being a birdlike paladin, rest is so-so. I remember also he said that they avoided exceptional stats unless character is exceptional in that regard, such as Durance having exceptional resolve.
Yeah, I saw his GDC video - it's a good talk.
 
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Sacred82

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Also they're probably supposed to be gimps.
If I had to guess I'd say the idea never was to have a party consisting only of companions.

I don't think that was the intention - I think the intention was that the companions would be flexible stats-wise for you to build them into different roles. It just turned out that they always ended up being somewhat gimped for whatever role you built them into.

y not both

I think Obs acknowledged that companions aren't as combat effective as henchmen - probably not an oversight. You could min max a class according to a template and the player can still fit them in their party, e.g. the obvious attributes for a CC Cipher are Int and Per, ain't nothing wrong with having a min maxed companion Cipher.

I think with the focus on personal equipment and stuff in PoE2 we get the best of both worlds, companions aren't as min maxed as henchmen but they're not totally inferior to henchmen. In PoE I never could get myself to taking companions.
 

Haplo

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I may be misremembering, but I believe there are quite a few damage builds that don't push dex (they don't use it as a dump stat, but don't inflate it past 10 or at most 13 either), because there's a soft cap on attack speed and dual wielders with the appropriate traits can get there even with moderate dex.

True, there's always an exception. Although to my knowledge "quite a few" is a bit of an exaggeration, since what you're saying is true (to my knowledge) only for that one particular type of damage build, i.e. fast-attacking dual-wielder.

Well, Dex was certainly useful, but there were also ways to offset moderate or even dumped Dex. Like has been said, dumping dex made sense on a fast dual-wielder. But also could be worth it on a two-handed barbarian with Blood Thirst (nullifies recovery after a kill). If you can set up a killing spree, you don't need Dex.
 

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