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Eternity Pillars of Eternity + The White March Expansion Thread

Delterius

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Don't be silly. If the Gods were manufactured then they become Kings. Exceptionally powerful Kings, but mere sovereigns nonetheless. You can serve, fool and even dethrone a King. The knowledge that the Gods aren't natural demiurges of their portfolios but rather created to enforce them, that they, like mortal judges and rulers, have limitations and petty squabbles amongst them liberates the lowly worshiper to choose their own path and perhaps act in a disruptive manner. Thaos is pretty much the only living character we meet which is detatched from belief in Eora and his path is much greater than that of simply a 'favored soul' of Magran. Its interesting to question to what level Thaos is defending the Engwithan system or simply imposing his own views on it. Iovara and possibly Waidwen are just as disruptive.
 

Lacrymas

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Don't be silly. If the Gods were manufactured then they become Kings. Exceptionally powerful Kings, but mere sovereigns nonetheless. You can serve, fool and even dethrone a King. The knowledge that the Gods aren't natural demiurges of their portfolios but rather created to enforce them, that they, like mortal judges and rulers, have limitations and petty squabbles amongst them liberates the lowly worshiper to choose their own path and perhaps act in a disruptive manner. Thaos is pretty much the only living character we meet which is detatched from belief in Eora and his path is much greater than that of simply a 'favored soul' of Magran. Its interesting to question to what level Thaos is defending the Engwithan system or simply imposing his own views on it. Iovara and possibly Waidwen are just as disruptive.

You kinda described the Greek pantheon there. Kings don't have metaphysical power, so false equivalency (not to mention Jesus Christ being referred to as "King of Kings" 3 times in the Bible). What more can I say? Maybe read up on how the ancient Greeks thought of their gods on a philosophical, as opposed to day-to-day, level? Even Nietzsche's Birth of Tragedy is a good reference point. The only difference I can possibly see (we aren't given any indication either way in-game) is if the gods aren't one and the same with their portfolios (even Greek philosophers can't agree on this, some times they are, sometimes not, even within the same author), i.e. they aren't their personification, but only safe-keepers/guardians/enforcers. That would make them not really gods though, since it would turn out that natural processes are higher "powers" than them, regardless of whether they are created or not.

This all comes down to how vaguely defined the gods are, and how vaguely defined the theological relationship to them is. That's one of the reasons "hurr-hurr, they aren't real" is so trivial of a "revelation". Not to mention that Hiravias (I think?) speculated they aren't, so that train of thought exists within the world, unless he's the ONLY ONE TO HAVE EVER THOUGHT THIS.
 
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Turjan

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Think of it this way: you believe in the Christian God not because you've seen him going around smiting people with a giant hammer and giving you free cookies, but because you have faith that he is the overarching figure of our universe that requires worship simply because he is what he is (rather than 'because he created the universe' or 'because he knows all', specifically)[...]

When you learn that those gods are (1) created a few hundred years ago[...]; (b) yes, it is going to have seismic changes in the role of religion and how people relate to the gods all over the place.

Actually, Christianity went through a similar phase in its early stages. Think of the teachings of the Marcionites. The Catholic Encyclopedia has this to say of them: "As they arose in the very infancy of Christianity and adopted from the beginning a strong ecclesiastical organization, parallel to that of the Catholic Church, they were perhaps the most dangerous foe Christianity has ever known." They were quite successful, and they may have made up about 30% of Christianity at some point.

What was their teaching? That Yahweh, the Jewish God, was the creator of the world (the demiurge), and he himself was created. He just doesn't remember, and Jesus was sent to remind him of this.

The more things change, the more it stays the same.
 

ilitarist

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I kinda think that all of this Eothas thing makes the grand reveal moot. It would be one thing to know that gods aren't all powerful beings in a world where they're regarded as absolute eternal powers. But in PoE everybody knows that Eothas is either dead or knocked down very hard. Other gods can answer your prayers and act all godly but not Eothas since he was all Little Boy'ed. So we know gods can be killed/incapacitated anyway. Isn't it all that matters? Gods are not eternal and not absolute, world can exist without them. Maybe Waidwen's Legacy is the kind of thing you get when you lose a god but you can't be sure.
 

Lacrymas

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Maybe. Either he's dead or he isn't, which gives us two possible outcomes - if he is, then the gods aren't one and the same with their portfolios since light itself didn't die when he did, OR he isn't dead and we still have no idea. If his death somehow indirectly triggered the Hollowborn, then it may be a God of War situation, where Kratos plunged the world into a near-apocalypse for systematically murdering the gods.


Actually, Christianity went through a similar phase in its early stages. Think of the teachings of the Marcionites. The Catholic Encyclopedia has this to say of them: "As they arose in the very infancy of Christianity and adopted from the beginning a strong ecclesiastical organization, parallel to that of the Catholic Church, they were perhaps the most dangerous foe Christianity has ever known." They were quite successful, and they may have made up about 30% of Christianity at some point.

What was their teaching? That Yahweh, the Jewish God, was the creator of the world (the demiurge), and he himself was created. He just doesn't remember, and Jesus was sent to remind him of this.

The more things change, the more it stays the same.

I had forgotten about the Marcionites. Didn't they think the God of the Old Testament is the demiurge (having created the world to torture us), but he himself was created by the Transcendent God (the "Monad") of the New Testament? Delving into mythology doesn't really give us an answer how people related themselves to both of these beings though, or how the divinity of the Transcendent God was rationalized. Not to mention that their interpretation leads us to a "turtles all the way down" situation.
 
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I kinda think that all of this Eothas thing makes the grand reveal moot. It would be one thing to know that gods aren't all powerful beings in a world where they're regarded as absolute eternal powers. But in PoE everybody knows that Eothas is either dead or knocked down very hard. Other gods can answer your prayers and act all godly but not Eothas since he was all Little Boy'ed. So we know gods can be killed/incapacitated anyway. Isn't it all that matters? Gods are not eternal and not absolute, world can exist without them. Maybe Waidwen's Legacy is the kind of thing you get when you lose a god but you can't be sure.

Thing is, you don't know. Eothas could just be pissed off and not paying attention. Alternatively, the weapon used to kill Eothas was delivered by another god (Magran) at the cost of the lives of her highest clergy, so it may not necessarily be a feat that Kith can repeat on their own.

Gods have limits in Paganism though. That's a feature of the theology where they have to share influence over the workings of the cosmos.
 

Turjan

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I had forgotten about the Marcionites. Didn't they think the God of the Old Testament is the demiurge (having created the world to torture us), but he himself was created by the Transcendent God (the "Monad") of the New Testament?
Yup. The transcendent God didn't usually mingle in earthly affairs.
Delving into mythology doesn't really give us an answer how people related themselves to both of these beings though, or how the divinity of the Transcendent God was rationalized. Not to mention that their interpretation leads us to a "turtles all the way down" situation.
The major point here was the difference in morality between OT and Jesus. Marcion thought the god of the OT was immoral and could not be the source of Jesus' teachings.

Anyway, I didn't want to turn this into a debate of Christian history. I just wanted to mention that the idea of the created creator was also part of Christian history and not that unthinkable in Christian thought.
 

Tigranes

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Certainly it wasnt unthinkable in Christianity, and the Marcionites were joined by other efforts to reconcile jesus and the two testaments etc, including the weird and sort of forced Holy Trinity we end up with as the institutional orthodox. But thats just the point - not that created gods are unthinkable or whatever, but that revelations changing the theological status quo so fundamentally will cause schisms.

The Godhammer/Waidwen doesnt render the reveal moot, the reveal confirms and amplifies the speculations begun by the Godhammer - which is one plot thread that is actually really well connected, except the game doesnt properly play that up because its too busy fucking about with the stupid watcher special snowflake shit. properly depicting the carnage of the hollowborn crisis and threading godhammer mystery to god reveal would have been much more interesting. Anyway, godhammer is widely understood at time of poe as 'wtf just happened' / 'omg magran killed eothas will gods war' / 'um possibly can humans harm gods?' - if we take the player tells the whole world ending, then it changes into 'gods are constructs we can create and destroy for certain and engwithan ruins are key to that', which goes far beyond the mysterious possible death of one god under exceptional circumstances involving another god.
 

Popiel

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including the weird and sort of forced Holy Trinity we end up with as the institutional orthodox.
You should stick to quasi-erudite game commentary, because that’s where your obvious strengths lie. Definitely not in commenting development of Christian doctrines. Trinity dogma is the only logical way to explain how God can be singular and yet in scriptures that in the end were chosen as orthodox there are three different persons ascribed with divine attributes – the Father, Jesus Christ and Holy Spirit. Henceforth Trinity is not weird nor forced, it’s the only logical conclusion if you want to respect strict monotheism like most of early Christians did – some of them didn’t, but they are beside the point. It’s obviously not easily comprehensible – attempts at comprehending Trinity led to schism between Latin (nowadays Roman Catholicism and its minions) and Eastern Christianities (nowadays plethora of Chalcedonian Churches not in connection with Rome), so you know how it goes.
 

Lacrymas

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God being created is unthinkable in Christianity now, because it's an Absolute which makes no sense to be "created". It is everything, it's timeless and spaceless etc. It simply is (and no, it won't do anything for you). It is not an anthropomorphized being like in Pagan pantheons, or even a power which acts. The concept of the Trinity has been retroactively thought of, it is a way to explain the presence of Jesus, the Father and Holy Spirit as separate beings acting as One. That's biblical exegesis though, it's not GOD, hard to explain.

Anyway,
, but that revelations changing the theological status quo so fundamentally will cause schisms.

We don't know the theological status quo or how theologians think of the eternity of the pantheon, even whether it is thought of at all. Maybe it will cause schisms, we don't know because there is no quality info. This needs a good writer, there simply isn't a different solution, they shot themselves in the foot by even tackling theological themes, let alone it being a major "reveal" which comes off as trivial to the extent of pointlessness. It has the same weight as "I make my soup with potatoes", because there isn't a philosophical ground to shake. Hiravias just casually remarks that he "knew" they weren't real (like someone would say "I knew you put potatoes in that soup!", with the exact same impact). No wonder Chris stormed out of Absurdian and disowned PoE.
 

Lacrymas

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Good for them, I guess? What anyone believes or not is irrelevant, both to religion and to any gods.
 

Popiel

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It is everything, it's timeless and spaceless etc. It simply is (and no, it won't do anything for you).
What you are now describing is obviously not Christianity (at least nothing resembling any more-or-less in touch with its roots vision of Christianity). Christianity is not fucking pantheism mate. Stop confusing people with your schlock theology, you seem to be overconfident ignorant. God is not everything, God is God, God is being that is, uncreated, beyond time, but of clearly some essence (οὐσία) and clear ontic status, moreover – God is a person, or rather three persons united by their divine, singular nature. That’s Christian dogma, it’s shared by denominations from Protestants, through Roman Catholics, through Greek Orthodox to even most Nonchalcedonians. God is not pantheistic absolute. Get fucking good and read something other than Wikipedia.
 

Lacrymas

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You are confusing Christian dogma with religion or even theology. I didn't mean "everything" as in a pantheistic interpretation, far from it. I shouldn't have used that word, but whatevs. God is NOT a person however (it isn't an anthropomorphized being at all), no idea where you get that nonsense, it sounds like village faith, maybe you are the one who goes to Wikipedia a bit too much? Also, biblical exegesis =/= God, or even the concept of God.

This is way off-topic though :p
 
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Popiel

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Distinctions you make are unnecessary. What’s religion or theology for you and how do they differ from Christian dogma (just to clarify - I know they are not the same things)? I use term Christian doctrine and Christian dogma interchangeably, as defined by Jaroslav Pelikan, and I think it’s a common thing to do nowadays. That God is a person – three persons (that’s how you translate Greek ὑπόστᾰσις by the way) to be exact, sharing divine nature – was an idea of bishops gathered at council in, let’s say, Nice or Chalcedon. Even Christ was a person, and he was fully divine as by Christian doctrine (vide: their creed). Village faith ay? Perhaps it may look like this to you, but certainly not to any learned Christian. If I’m wrong prove it by quoting some hard theology. Let’s delve into patristics or same Latin heavy lifters, like Aquinas. Prove me wrong.

Yes, well, exegesis obviously =/= God. What's your point exactly?
 

Infinitron

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Anyway, godhammer is widely understood at time of poe as 'wtf just happened' / 'omg magran killed eothas will gods war' / 'um possibly can humans harm gods?'

Not everybody is even sure that Waidwen really was Eothas. (maybe Eothas just went into hiding because he was really upset about his followers' failure)
 

Delterius

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unless he's the ONLY ONE TO HAVE EVER THOUGHT THIS.
Of course he isn't. Thaos' whole point is to continually extinguish any such doubts for all eternity. Anyway, I decided to backtrack a bit to expose my the whole of my point of view.

Spoilers ahoy!

A question to everyone: What do you think the point of the story is? And how do you justify your reasoning?

I think this is simple enough. Pillars is a hero's journey in the search for survival. Bound as a Watcher, the protagonist is made to relive memories of past lives over and over again until they lose all sense of identity. As such, they must travel the world in a bid to understand their condition and avert madness. If one is to search for purpose in this story, however, it can be found at the climax: to deliver karmic justice. What binds your motivation together is your relationship with Thaos. First as the strange apparition who triggered your burden; then as a political opponent and only real clue as to your survival; finally as kindred spirit over (many? two?) incarnations. Both in that past life and in the present story, it was Thaos who bound you to your path and to his own ultimate destruction. The whole story and your character are both made as the final punchline to Thaos' own.

All of these however are mere plot devices. Masks and tropes which dance around the greater story. A more important question, I think, is the search for meaning. Even if one is meant to deliver justice, doesn't mean their story is simply one of lawliness. What themes, if any, bind Pillar's story together? I believe it is Death.

Death and its derivatives -- loss, closure and most importantly people's expectations for the living and the beyond after they die -- tend to drive most of the world and a majority of the best characters is the game. Dyrwood is a land rife with war and Waidwen's Legacy is like a plague in reverse. In preventing reproduction, it signals the end of all community. Social order unravels little by little and people become desperate. A ruling lord executes naysayers in a fit of religious mania. A city of paranoid yankees truly exceptional individuals turns on itself out of fear of science. The gods themselves quarrel over the souls of those denied their reincarnation.

That drama is at the center of Pillar's narrative. The means to that end is a certain form of pastiche Spiritualism. The game's portrayal of reincarnation and the way the past clings as living memory onto the world itself is similar to some superficial esoteric beliefs that some areas of american pop culture likes to represent, as well as some deeper beliefs that can be found elsewhere in the world. Animancy is the plot device, the fantasy gimmick that is meant to keep things interesting.

To illustrate this reasoning: I like to see Pillars as a three act story. In each Act, the PC interacts with the themes of death and eternity from a different viewpoint.

The first Act is much more personal. Its a short trek of self discovery. In Gilded Vale you are confronted with much more personal tidbits of human drama. The basics of Dyrwood's history of war against Readceras, the issues of Waidwen's Legacy and Raedric's tyranny. Towards Caed Nua you meet many companions who tie in very well with the game's themes. Éder is simply a war veteran who wants for closure in regards to his brother's death. Aloth is a wizard who suffers from emotional trauma and 'copes' with it by invoking a past more asserive personality. Durance is not so different, except that his own brokenness is ironic. The damage his beliefs and faith call upon others is what happened to him. I don't know much about Kana and Hiravias, but Sagani seeks the soul and wisdom of her tribe's elder. Whereas Grieving Mother is this almost folkloric figure of an universal midwife. Of the characters I interacted with, Pallegina is the only one I couldn't tie in with the others thematically which is a damn shame since I actually kinda love her portrait.

The second act goes political. Your only clue after Maerwald's death is a masked man and his secretive cult. So you have to investigate them. You still interact a lot with the local tragedies that are derived from Waidwen's Legacy, but the city of Defiance Bay is mostly about the political ramifications of Necromancy Animancy and people's relationship with the beyond. And that's where, I think, Pillars start to occasionally digress from its own themes. Whereas the climax of the first act has you decide the fate of Maerwald's immortal soul, the Trial is about public policy. The only real reason to care being your pursuit of Thaos. As part of that, the Hospice, the lighthouse and the neighborhood filled with ghouls add a lot to the greater story. You keep meeting these apparitions bound to the earthly plane, sometimes by intent but mostly otherwise. Then you get to things like the Automaton subplot with the Dozens and the City Guard. Interesting enough on its own, but a simple change like making the living armors act like Robocop would bind them much more strongly to the game's themes.

The final act is about the gods and their rules. You are still chasing Thaos and the actual main quest here is short. This last third of the game is mostly about navigating the gods' traditions and rules to curry their favor. All four avaiable god missions are about delivering judgement in accordance to each god's portfolio. The god of volition and natural selection wants you to decide on the new king of the jungle. The god of entropy wants you to keep some people from knocking into the frozen hells. And so on. But what matters the most is that in the end odds are that your final choice in regards to the souls of a million unborn babies conform to the wishes of one of the gods. The final act is also the final confrontation with Thaos, the climax in which your character truly understands his past incarnations and fulfills his role. He ends the creature who determined his own path many lives before.

So why mention all of this? Well, because the 'final twist' of the manufactured nature of the gods has a repercussion in each of the angles described above.

On a personal level, consider Durance's character arc. He begins the game with a very special relationship towards his own goddess. Magran is both his whore and his muse. She's full of defects but she can also do no wrong. Durance's path is everything that Magran's creed requests of him. Especially when it comes to the vengeful treatment of enemies. Her judgment is swift, cruel and eternal in breaking apart the souls of those who do wrong. Towards the end, Durance realizes the whole deal with the Godbomb and how he himself was marked by it. He is plagued with doubt. With your help he manages to make the transition: "Whatever desire I had to be redeemed in her eyes was a weakness purged by the Watcher's sight." His relationship with Magran is forever changed. She's no longer a goddess but rather a queen. One to be served but also one to disagree with.

Politically, the potential power of Animancy as demonstrated by this simple truth is capable of sending shockwaves across the world. Just in Dyrwood, the tenuous peace between settlers and the tribes could be shattered should any ruling Duke decide that destroying Engwithan ruins is more important than anything. Or perhaps that in enshrining them from the prying eyes of others lies the future of his people.

And, finally, theologically. Well, there are only four characters in all of Pillars' story which have been in a position to act in accordance to the truth that the gods were manufactured. One of them is the PC, who spends most of his time reacting to Thaos. The other three are Iovara, Thaos himself and, perhaps, Waidwen.

Assuming the latter knew of Eothas' nature, its interesting to imagine that out of all four characters, its possible that three of them chose to serve the Engwithan gods. Most of the PC's options are in accordance to one of the god's wishes. Thaos' whole existance is, apparently, to uphold the Engwithan system of belief. Iovara is the only one who chose to ignore it all.

It becomes apparent then that non belief or a change in the nature of belief itself isn't what is at stake here. People's relationship with the gods don't change most of the time. What changes are its foundations. A worshiper does not question god. A servant occasionally does question sovereignty. Few characters in the game have the gall to position themselves in a liberated manner as that of Hiravias, or Éder and Durance at the end of the game. You can do it yourself when questioning Hylea's quest.

But if one is to believe Thaos, then he was there for every time somebody or some nation came even close to threatening the order of things. In fact, speaking of Thaos his methods betray his true purpose. Its not so much that without the Engwithan gods people would become lost. If that were the case then whatever happened to Eothas would be much more pressing than Woedica's fall. Thaos is about fighting change. The moment the gods or the hierarchy of the gods become 'programmable' entities then they are liable to change. One could in theory crown any of the gods into Woedica's throne. One could become god. Or kill the gods. If everyone became liberated players in the chessboard of belief, then the system would collapse rather quickly. Something which, in Thaos' own view, can only be prevented by crowning a supreme lawgiver, above even death and entropy. Whatever the costs.
 
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santino27

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Welcome to page 208 of the fifteenth thread about the game that got seventeen reviews.
True enough. It's just focusing on a particularly shit part of that game. Can't we go back to talking about how MCA's work was unfairly bludgeoned to death by the evil JES? :)

Also, Infinitron randomly tagging my last post as racist makes me sad. This is why I was pro-Bubbles in the great Bubbles v. Inxile-Leaker war of 2016. :D
 
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Lacrymas

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...and none of those things are explored (except the literal recounting of the "plot"), you derive them from trying to logically connect all the pointless plot lines the game throws at you, just like all the other interpretations I got for asking that question. Also, death? Seriously? Only fleshly beings "die", but the TRUE SOUL lives on, you can even find them again, *cough* Sagani's quest *cough*. You can derive countless "interpretations", with none of them having anything to do with the actual plot or characters, because there is no plot, it's just made up as it goes along. I can say that Thaos' TRUE purpose was stopping Animancy from taking control of the gods he helped create, because it would undermine his imaginary power. Too bad it's still as speculative as everything else.
 

Delterius

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you derive them from trying to logically connect all the pointless plot lines the game throws at you,
That's why they are called plotlines. Because they are connected in a sequential order.

You are trying to find the reason for Pillar's mediocre storytelling from a conceptual standpoint which is more than a little dense. Everytime someone answers your questions adequately you put fingers in your ear and just dismiss it all.

In reality, Pillar's issues are one of writing and editing. The game is unfocused, it tries to tackle too many angles at once and does so in a mediocre fashion. There isn't enough to the personal, metaphysical or political matters to fill plotlines of their own. There isn't enough of key characters - sometimes companions themselves - to flesh them out adequately. Pillars is at its best when the gimmick of soul magic is used to reinforce its themes -- such as getting a cipher to deliver closure to Éder. It grows mediocre once Animancy and soul magic becomes a wankery of its own accord -- such as Pallegina being a godlike and not really tying into the plot. The game is at its very worst when it fails to adequately flesh out your relationship with Thaos and Iovara, the way Mask of that Betrayer tackled the theme of masks and repeated roles perfectly with just about every single character you meet as heir to Akashi's curse.

That's why Pillars story sucks ass. Not because of elementary issues of purpose and motivation. Those are covered. The game has all the elements needed to tell its story. It just fails to use them adequately.

Also, death? Seriously? Only fleshly beings "die", but the TRUE SOUL lives on

:lol: Let me guess, you come from a secular society without any real religious discipline?
 

Lacrymas

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That's why they are called plotlines. Because they are connected in a sequential order.

You are trying to find the reason for Pillar's mediocre storytelling from a conceptual standpoint which is more than a little dense. Everytime someone answers your questions adequately you put fingers in your ear and just dismiss it all.

I gave reasons for dismissing them, this time I didn't because it would be more of the same (and it would take forever to go through that text of yours). Finding patterns where there are none. Of course the story is unfocused, that's what I've been repeating. It's so unfocused that it fails to create a main plot, or coherently connect its side plots.

:lol: Let me guess, you come from a secular society without any real religious discipline?

I meant it in the context of the game. I identify as a Catholic irl (a very different type from what you'd expect), but was born in an Orthodox country, long story.
 
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Delterius

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I gave reasons for dismissing them, this time I didn't because it would be more of the same (and it would take forever to go through that text of yours). Finding patterns where there are none. Of course the story is unfocused, that's what I've been repeating. It's so unfocused that it fails to create a main plot, or coherently connect its side plots.

There obviously is a main plot. Each act is connected in a logical manner. You become a watcher. You go search for Maerwald for his knowledge. You investigate the Leaden Key. You hunt for Thaos. There's purpose and there's motivation. These basic patterns are there for anyone who can read. The real issue isn't to 'connect' each plot point as that's done. But to make them part of the same singular story. To give everything the same meaning.

One simple example is what I said about the Automaton subplot. The fact that you become involved with the creation of living armors is reasonable enough. You are in Defiance Bay to investigate the Leaden Key. You find out they have an interest in the Animancy trial at the end of the act and Lady Webb points you in that direction. The problem is that the Automaton subplot is mostly political. It touches themes of security and state power which didn't really have anything to do with the rest of the game, thematically. Had this been a game about politics, then it would be an interesting plotline to follow. As things are, a simple change to make this a matter that concerns 'eternity', like the living armors being, in fact, bound souls a la Robocop would do wonders. Even cutting the subplot entirely would be good if it meant more time spent fleshing out Thaos and your soul's relationship with him. Or anything else that needed more time under the spotlight.

I meant it in the context of the game. I identify as a Catholic irl (a very different type of what you'd expect), but was born in an Orthodox country, long story.
That means nothing. Even as I know nothing of 'an Orthodox country', there are plenty of cultural catholics out there. People who just do the dance of the sacraments out of tradition and with no meaning whatsoever. What you said up there is so stupid in both the context of the game and real life that I have to assume you lack the cultural faculties to even realize it. I mean 'why are you crying man the immortal soul is immortal, grief is dumb' is just absurd. Even worse if you think that 'this is a fantasy world man, people KNOW their souls are immortal' in any way excuses your train of thought. People KNOW that in the real world too. That doesn't change human nature in the slightest.
 

Lacrymas

Arcane
Joined
Sep 23, 2015
Messages
17,948
Pathfinder: Wrath
No, they don't KNOW it in real life, good try though :p They do, however, know it in-game, Sagani even finds the one she is searching for. I wasn't talking about grief, but about death, so no idea where you got that impression. If your standards of a main plot is "something happens after something" (without logical connections), then yeah, sure. None of the events are connected to the ones before them, you are directed by NPCs (the dwarf woman is a particular ass-pull) to go find Maerwald, then the Leaden Key, then Thaos, there is no logical progression of events, being told to go find them is simply errand running, not plot progression. The "plot" is made up of set pieces that the player is supposed to run through, because the game tells you to, rather than being thrust forward by the characters.
 
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