Tacticular Cancer: We'll have your balls

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Pillars of Eternity + The White March Expansion Thread

Discussion in 'Obsidian Entertainment' started by Perkel, May 29, 2015.

  1. Luckmann Arbiter

    Luckmann
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    My first character (and part of what prompted me to adopt this stance, I guess) was a Bleak Walker Paladin, and I wasn't really trying to go for specific dispositions, it was more the fact that I could never really be sure what the tone of what I was saying was. The fact that Bleak Walkers turned out to just be Blackguards despite indications of otherwise was an incredible let-down.

    It was more an issue with certain dialogues than others, and in terms of min/maxing dispositions, that shouldn't actually be hard with the Disposition identifiers turned off. It was more a matter of not knowing whether I was being Aggressive or Benevolent in the way I was saying something like "Get out of here". If it was Aggressive, the NPC would react with fear and high-tail it out of there, it was Benevolent, the NPC would grovel a bit and be thankful I was letting them go. Without the identifiers, I just had no clue what would happen, and it was annoying the hell out of me. I remember especially one conversation (but not where), where I reacted to the fact that one of the answers were [Deceptive], yet there was no clear indication that it was deceptive, other than the tag, which was absent if you played without identifiers.

    This kinda thing can be avoided by other kinds of tags, unrelated to the disposition system itself, or by clever writing, but PoE was obviously written with this design in mind, so it ended up using it as a crutch. Decline? Maybe, but then the decline is at a deeper level than the indicators themselves, and lies with the reliance on the indicators and the quality of writing and conveying the tone to the player. But it's very hard to write things that reads as intentionally deceptive without it losing the point, which is why having [Deceptive] as an indicator or (Lie) stuck onto the end are almost indispensable.

    After playing Tyranny, I really hope that they make the most of the in-text tagging system in Pillars of Eternity 2, and also start applying it to dialogue choices. Being able to tag choices in terms of tone and intent shown when moused over them could be a real helper, much like how you sometimes explain to the GM when playing PnP that you're doing something in a specific manner, without taking up space for the actual dialogue option.

    Show Spoiler
    Dammit.. now I'm getting hyped for Pillars of Eternity 2. I promised myself this wouldn't happen again, not after Tyranny and Tides of Numenera...

    :negative:
     
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  2. Sacred82 Savant

    Sacred82
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    It's not so much that the writing is unclear than that the dispositions are muddled. You can be a guy who hurls people against walls and threaten to break their face even though you have no reason to take any side in the quarrel, while also being a benevolent stroker of kitties.
     
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  3. Luckmann Arbiter

    Luckmann
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    I don't see a problem with that. Being aggressive have nothing to do with whether you're a benevolent stroker of kitties or not. And as opposed to Tides of Numenera, the way disposition points are doled out usually makes a degree of sense, whereas in Tides of Numenera, it's practically random.

    Even if you turn off the Disposition identifiers in PoE and end up taking a response that makes you go "God fucking dammit, that's not what I meant", there's very few instances of "Wait, how the fuck is that Benevolent?", and most often I could actually argue "Oh, yeah, I guess that could make sense". The notable exception here being some instances of [Cruel] vs. [Aggressive], and [Rational] simply being all over the place (and sometimes downright irrational, as I remember it). Similarly, Stoic is usually only handed out for the answers that are both uncaring and laconic, which misrepresents the idea of being stoic - but at least it's consistent. In Tides of Numenera, merely asking someone what's wrong somehow means that you're Passionate (Red) and Benevolent (Gold), asking a question gives you Blue for being Inquisitive, but only for some questions and not others, and if you tell someone that they shouldn't sacrifice themselves, it's somehow Communual (Indigo), and if you tell someone that they should try to be an inspiration to the community, it's suddenly Silver (Aspirational, Power-Hungry, etc.).

    But yeah, there are instances of the Dispositions being muddled in PoE, but it doesn't really tie into the issue of whether someone feels the need to have the Disposition Indicators on or off, that's almost entirely in the writing.
     
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  4. Sacred82 Savant

    Sacred82
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    As I said, you have absolutely no reason to take a side in that conversation (talking about the Trumbel thing). It's nothig but wanton violence. And I have yet to read a definition of benevolence that would include such a thing.
     
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  5. Iznaliu Educated

    Iznaliu
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    1. Go to Obisdian forums/PoE subreddit, where it will get noticed by Obsidian. This is a legitimate breakthrough in RPG conversation design
    2. Post idea there.
     
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  6. Sannom Savant

    Sannom
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    I'm not sure why you would mention Tyranny's system as a point of reference, what you're asking for is a lot more complicated than a simple hyperlink to a journal entry. But other than that, yeah, that could be interesting.
     
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  7. jewboy Savant

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    Ooh. I like this idea. I think I'm going to give Pillars another shot and try it like this. I generally hated the combat in Pillars 1.0 which felt too popamole/dragonagey to me, but I really wanted to learn to like it somehow. I kept finishing the first dungeon with different character builds trying to find some way to get some enjoyment out of the combat. I would still like to. I will also try playing with the IE mod with engagement disabled. Although I guess that mod may not fully support the newest patches. Any other advice for someone who found they couldn't enjoy the combat of Pillars 1.0 even after many attempts when the game was first released?
     
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  8. Sherry Scholar

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    Hi.

    This option was one I turned off after the starting camp site but it was neat to see the options available and unavailable during conversation but that is why I ended up turning it off after because I did not want to see these options and just let the options be natural based on the situation I found myself in right? Then as the hours go by you can see who your character is becoming as the road gets laid out before you head down it and roleplay the story I enjoyed that myself.


    Maybe you are looking to spice up the graphics of your game because there is not much in Pillars that needs to be modded like other games missing so much when it is released right? There is shader mods that you can modify the brightness and colour in the game that you can check out in the link below or even look around the mod site for something that suits your needs so check it out okay?

    p.s. here is the SweetFX shader mods and one of many to get you started.

    Vivid Pillars Shader (open)

    [​IMG]


    Thanks,
    Sherry
     
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  9. ESh Prophet

    ESh
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    :prosper:
    Oversaturated garbage...

    Here's what vanilla looks like for comparison:
    Show Spoiler


    [​IMG]
     
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  10. Sherry Scholar

    Sherry
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    Hi.

    oh I know right ESh but it kind of goes along with the point I was making that there is very little one has to mod in Pillars to begin with right but thank-you for posting the original look of the game for side by side look because Pillars does look great on its own I agree. [​IMG] [​IMG]

    Thanks,
    Sherry
     
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  11. Lacrymas Arcane

    Lacrymas
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    I dislike the disposition system, I don't see the point. The game should react naturally to what we do, not track arbitrary dispositions and make characters react to that, like every character is part of a hivemind and knows that once you told that widow to fuck off. It's gamey, but it's also not necessary and is popamole decline.
     
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  12. Luckmann Arbiter

    Luckmann
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    Because Tyranny is the only game I know of that has used this system of out-of-dialogue in-dialogue tagging. The system can be used for more than references to a journal entry, it can reference any kind of string, even if it's just a clarification of tone, or a description of what you do as you say something.
     
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  13. jewboy Savant

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    Are Sawyer and his minions still nerfing competing character builds every patch as if Pillars were an MMO? I want to solo and I've been trying to learn about soloing tactics with various classes but the devs make so many changes that it's hard to keep up with what tactics still work. I'm hoping now that Pillars II is in development that they will lay off with the constant nerfing frenzy and let sleeping dogs lie. I can't imagine why they would care whether a paladin or druid or ranger or monk or rogue is the easiest class to solo. Weird that Feargus is allowing them to actually spend money on that neverending quest for perfect balance of all character builds in any and every situation. Seems like Sawyer really does hate fun in all its possible forms.
     
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  14. Lacrymas Arcane

    Lacrymas
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    I think you can google some builds that can solo stuff. You can also check out the videos where people beat the Ultimate, they usually show their builds, although that requires a high level of grognardism.
     
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  15. jewboy Savant

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    The point I am making is googling doesn't help that much when the optimal solo builds change every month as if it is an MMO with PvP. From googling I've found lots of contradictory info because what used to work well doesn't work at all anymore due to massive amounts of rebalancing and nerfing. Again its common to see that with MMOs. Hell maybe with MMOs it's intentional so that the best arena builds change and it's not All Pallies All the Time in PvP fights as it was iirc back when I played WoW.

    From what I can gather the most recent optimal solo class is the Chanter followed by Druids, Wizards, and Monks, but it's hard to say. It's hard to learn from other people's experience when the rules are changed so often. I hope things will calm down now that the devs may again have something better to do with their time than ruin the fun of the few people trying to solo the game. I've noticed that people on the Obsidian forums seem to view a build that is more powerful than others to be 'game breaking' Huh? Is there some PvP mode in Pillars that I've missed?
     
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  16. Lacrymas Arcane

    Lacrymas
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    I guess you aren't familiar with this little devil? ->

    :littlemissfun:

    In any case, I think the last patch was a sufficiently long time ago for you to just check the dates the info you are looking for was added, at least GOG hasn't notified me of new patches for a while.

    EDIT: Here's a link to a solo paladin build -> https://youtu.be/rk4ODyBB88E?t=2835
    In the end I don't think stats matter so much, maybe Might should be high because you have to do *some* damage after all. Solo runs are mostly about preparation and consumables as far as I can gather. You still need not useless talents, but those aren't hard to figure out on your own I guess.
     
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2017
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  17. Make America Great Again Roguey Arcane Sawyerite Sawyerist Sawyer's Bride No Fun Allowed

    Roguey
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    It's reputation. Fallout had two forms of it, town-based rep and karma.
     
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  18. Make America Great Again Mastermind Arcane Bethestard

    Mastermind
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    for level 8 priest spells, does the priest only get access to the Symbol of X god to which he belongs or do priests get access to all 5? I wanna make a priest of wael but eothas's symbol looks way better.
     
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  19. Rivmusique Arcane Patron

    Rivmusique
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    Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire
    Only their own god's.
     
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  20. Monkeyfinger Augur

    Monkeyfinger
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    The symbols are all bad and they shouldn't be a consideration for build.
     
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  21. Make America Great Again Mastermind Arcane Bethestard

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    There would be no need to play with them on if it was obvious from the options but it's often impossible to tell if, say, agreeing to help someone is tagged benevolent or not. shitty writing + shitty system = options should stay on
     
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  22. Luckmann Arbiter

    Luckmann
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    I agree, but to be fair, it is sometimes very hard to write dialogue options in a manner that sounds natural and conveys tone and intent. The system only really feels artificial because there's an actual system tied to it. We've had (Lie) tags for years, and we've always accepted that because it's near-impossible to convey deceptive intent because what you're saying is inherently intended to be deceptive, running the risk of actually deceiving the player, too.

    The disposition tags are honestly not much different from that. The issue seems to be more psychological than material, in that having the tags tied to an actual system leads to metagaming, because you feel pressured to act in a specific manner in order to optimize the reactions of others to you, or because you're a priest or paladin. What I would propose is to hide the system entirely, and maybe even add a ton of more ambiguous trackers or triggers, but keep the tags themselves. The Disposition system could be entirely under the hood, and modifiers could be doled out even in unmarked dialogue choices, but you'd still have other dialogue choices where the tags are present, but you cannot be completely sure if it actually affects your dispositions or not (because the system and the tags are divorced).
     
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  23. Hyperion Learned

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    Got bored, going to finally give Path of the Damned a shot since Hard gets boring by around level 5 now. Only fights that cause the slightest bit of trouble are the Lagufaeth ones. Hopefully Path doesn't get too out of hand. To keep things from getting boring, I like to multiclass my characters using IEMod to find fun / broken combinations. We'll see how it goes.
     
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  24. Prime Junta Arcane

    Prime Junta
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    -> uses mod to make ridiculously overpowered parties
    -> complains that combat is too easy

    'k
     
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  25. Hyperion Learned

    Hyperion
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    After the first, 'unblemished' game, I had pretty much memorized and snoozed through all encounters, including TWM1. Wacky character building is all that keeps me coming back after like 6 playthroughs, just to see what crazy class interactions can happen. Hell, PoE2 will probably have shit like this on release with multiclassing being implemented for real.

    Autism can be a bitch at times, I guess.
     
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