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Planescape torment.

Darth Roxor

Royal Dongsmith
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Derper said:
@Roxor: How is BaK a better game? I know combat and puzzles might be better, but in terms of C&C, character development, quests, setting and story? Please...

Krondor's plot (and its exposition) rapes Torment in every orifice, so do the quests, I couldn't give a fuck about C&C and character development is good for what it is (LULZ!!1).

Pretty much everything and everyone you find in Krondor is somehow linked to the main plot, not to mention that the story is exposed not through HOLYSHITGIANTWALLSOFTEXTFROMVITALCHARACTERS but through subtle nuances, characters that may seem completely irrelevant, twists and your own deduction - NOTHING is thrown 'in your face', you can never know who to trust, who's telling the truth, who's trying to deceive you or who's giving you vital info disguised as seemingly pointless smalltalk.

Setting might be standard fantasy land, but it also has an awesome chapter in a post-apo 'de-magicked' wasteland.

Quests? They might not be numerous, but they're all done with extreme attention to detail, not to mention that there's not a single pointless FedEx quest, and ALL (and I literally mean ALL) of them are tied to the main plot in some way.


Krondor is the perfect blend of RPG mechanics and storytelling, that will probably never be topped. Never.
 

mediocrepoet

Philosoraptor in Residence
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Combatfag: Gold box / Pathfinder
Codex 2012 Codex+ Now Streaming! MCA Project: Eternity Divinity: Original Sin 2
Also, in the hopes that I haven't spoiled anything for the OP in my other posts: Whatever my issues with the game, I thought Dakkon was really interesting and cool as a character. He was my favourite overall but I tend to like the hugely lawful types - Vhaillor's really nice in that regard as well. After that, Annah was good to have around... but really, they really do all have something interesting going on with them. Even Ignus, who I consider to be one of the more lame characters had some interesting things to find out and was worth talking to and figuring out. I suspect you won't have trouble finding things to like about your companions - you just might wish they'd been transplanted into another game. ;)
 

baronjohn

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Ha ha, oh wow, teh Codex defeated by a 16 year old animu girl who probably goes around wearing a cat ear hoodie and smiles all the time.

The depths to which you retards sink continues to amaze and astound me.

Enjoy your shitty fake-deep JRPG.
 

Lesifoere

Liturgist
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Oct 26, 2007
Messages
4,071
Black Cat said:
@ Lesifoere

Okay. You want the translation? You are a poor retarded bitch, needing excuses to like the stupid, childish stuff she likes because she is a little scared, insecure shit. Better? Of course you are going to think Torment is deep and complex if you read crap and think that makes you somewhat literate. Do you really think throwing a couple of names and discusing the writing of a handful of sword and sorcery freaks makes you part of the intelectual elite? That kind of explains what do you see in Torment, i guess.

:D :D

Where did I say Torment is deep and complex, by the way? Perhaps if you calm down a little, you could read back a few pages and realize that all this time my posts are for the most part dedicated to ridiculing you, not defending PS:T.

Do me a favor, yes? Stop trying to look smart and smug with me. Criticizing the cultural tastes of someone who read parts of De Praestigiis Daemonum in original scrip when she was eleven is just awesome.

Cool story, sis.

Note to you, as well as others: Fantasy literature doesn't make you cultured. Science Fiction neither does. Nor does Discworld, at that.

Interesting, I didn't know you had access to my entire bookshelves. Considering that my bookshelves contain--among others--Angela Carter, AS Byatt, and so on and so forth, why, I'm sure you're purrrrfektly right about my taste and how cultured I am. By the way, chances are good that you've read very little of some of the more experimental spec-fic writers. Ahhh, to accuse someone of elitism and then branding an entire genre as sword-and-sorcery freakery: can you spell hypocrisy, or do I need to convert it to katakana for you?

Smug commoner bitches like you get me in a bad mood, and that's bad for my Kawaiisa rating.

Oh, so are you royalty or something? (Princess of Kawaii My-Head Kingdom does not count.) "Commoner," says she.

And I may be young, but i have seen enought crap to know most pretentious, pseudointellectual shits like you are nothing but little insecure and scared shits inside. So grow up, and spend more time thinking and studying instead of looking for culture and knowledge in commoner crap and videogames.

Guys, we were right. She's sixteen. Or younger. Have you even graduated high school yet, duckling?

You having a nervous breakdown was almost worth the many, many, many butthurt posts of NYA THINGIE AND STUFF. Given how angry and upset you appear to be, it doesn't say much about your own "security" or "maturity," you do realize? I can't imagine anyone who's secure about her tastes or whatever bursting into such rage on an Internet forum while being taunted by complete strangers. Can you?
 
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Black Cat said:
@ Lesifoere

Okay. You want the translation? You are a poor retarded bitch, needing excuses to like the stupid, childish stuff she likes because she is a little scared, insecure shit. Better? Of course you are going to think Torment is deep and complex if you read crap and think that makes you somewhat literate. Do you really think throwing a couple of names and discusing the writing of a handful of sword and sorcery freaks makes you part of the intelectual elite? That kind of explains what do you see in Torment, i guess.

Do me a favor, yes? Stop trying to look smart and smug with me. Criticizing the cultural tastes of someone who read parts of De Praestigiis Daemonum in original scrip when she was eleven is just awesome. Are you stupid? Sorry, foolish question with all the evidence you already gave me. But i guess a cultured person is suposed to be a retarded snob like every single person in the Codex who ever read a book, instead of just having fun and being lighthearted. Note to you, as well as others: Fantasy literature doesn't make you cultured. Science Fiction neither does. Nor does Discworld, at that. So before trying to acuse me of being a retarded because i enjoy a sappy anime every now and then, look at what your tastes are. I am not here to talk about how great my taste in literature is, because when i want to be serious business i don't look for entertainment, i look for academics. Smug commoner bitches like you get me in a bad mood, and that's bad for my Kawaiisa rating. I can feel it falling already, i'll need to go play Hello Kitty Online or something after this, jeez.

Where i was? Oh, yes. Sorry, i was talking about your commoner tastes and your commoner, superficial mind as indicated by how much importance you give to writing and style, and how much importance you give to me writing all cute and fluffy. Do you think you are impressing anyone? My, you are the girl who thinks Torment has DEPTH. You aren't going to impress anyone who has a modicum of culture, sorry.

And tell me what the Depth of Torment is, o great and cultured lady. Are you now going to say the kind of philosophy and thought to be found in the writing and the plot is on the level of Fallout 3's children of atom, just better written? And, yes, i imagine a fantasy mystery is really amazing to read, when all the rules of the mystery are invented on the spot by the writer. Such consistency, nya.

You can keep judging me because i like to write cute and fluffy all you want, but it remains the point i am a, you guys say, sixteen years old girl and have read things you don't even know exist, nor could get your paws on if you knew, nor would understand even then because you lack the background, knowledge, and understanding beyond style and it becomes obvious in every single post of you. But you are more literate and cultured because you like Torment and i like Vampire Knight because the plot is sappy and the guys are all super hot? Okay, i guess all cultured girls are expected to be nuns or something. :lol:

And I may be young, but i have seen enought crap to know most pretentious, pseudointellectual shits like you are nothing but little insecure and scared shits inside. So grow up, and spend more time thinking and studying instead of looking for culture and knowledge in commoner crap and videogames.

Oh, and of course i am in the wrong forums. Because, obviously, role playing games are not about gameplay here. They are about what can change the nature of a man, the metaphysics of some fantasy land, the personal lives and pasts of a floating skull and some random limbo swordman guy, and other mature stuff, like walking cubes with smiley-like faces, right? I thought so. Just like fantasy literature, serious business. When i was attending the lecture about the nature of the planes i felt my mind opened by such important revelations. :roll:

I don't know about you, but i'm a hardcore gamer. So when i play a game, i care about the gameplay challenging me and kicking my butt to the next country and not about the writing. I supose you, being SO bloody literate, need good writing in your games instead of your books, where good writing belongs to.

Oh, she snapped.

I never thought I'll say this at RPG Codex, but good job everyone.
 

Lesifoere

Liturgist
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I don't know if I should feel proud or terrible.

Do you think this chick has dethroned Qwinn? In sheer verbosity at least, if nothing else.
 

Darth Roxor

Royal Dongsmith
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Lesifoere said:
Do you think this chick has dethroned Qwinn? In sheer verbosity at least, if nothing else.

Sorry, you can't dethrone Qwinn. He's the epitome of butthurt.

Qwinn
 

Lesifoere

Liturgist
Joined
Oct 26, 2007
Messages
4,071
Darth Roxor said:
Lesifoere said:
Do you think this chick has dethroned Qwinn? In sheer verbosity at least, if nothing else.

Sorry, you can't dethrone Qwinn. He's the epitome of butthurt.

Qwinn
Fair point, well made, though who knows? With a few more posts she might launch into another fit.

Fortunately, she hasn't even made mods or anything, so even if she commits pseuside, nothing of value will have been lost.

Qwinn
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
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Messages
28,024
Lesifoere said:
There're plenty of people around here who enjoy terrible shit. But you see, they don't type the way you do. I mean, I thought it was retarded as fuck that VD praised the writing in DA as brilliant and deep, but at least he doesn't add NYA and THINGIE and STUFF to his every post. Although he should probably do that, it'll sharpen the "who is this and what the fuck did you do with VD" effect for lulz. Hey, Vince, are you listening?
I discovered this thread today. I saw a 10-page PST thread and thought "this must be a very enlightening discussion...". Needless to say I was pleasantly surprised to see that even though you've seemingly lost the interest in our discussion after I cornered you, you are still bitching about it elsewhere.

For the record though - a silly concept, I know - I said that one line was brilliant and deep, not "the writing in DA". Carry on.
 

Lesifoere

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Messages
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No, no. I seriously think you should emulate her manner of typing. It'll be refreshing and potentially hilarious. Be a good sport, dear boy; not everything should be read with connotations of butthurt and I don't lace everything with sarcasm.

Vault Dweller said:
that even though you've seemingly lost the interest in our discussion after I cornered you

But then again, I think the one who can't quite let go isn't me (and how like you to scan through all this text and pick out the one single mention of you). Losing interest and being cornered are two different things. "Seemingly" would better be placed before "cornered."
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
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Messages
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Lesifoere said:
No, no. I seriously think you should emulate her manner of typing. It'll be refreshing and potentially hilarious. Be a good sport, dear boy; not everything should be read with connotations of butthurt and I don't lace everything with sarcasm.
I've thought about it, but then I realized that I know nothing about her strange language. What the fuck is a nya and where does one use it?

But then again, I think the one who can't quite let go isn't me.
I'm not the one talking about it in other threads, am I?

Losing interest and being cornered are two different things.
Did I imply they aren't? One tend to follow the other.

...and how like you to scan through all this text and pick out the one single mention of you
I've read the thread. I think that Black Cat's original post had a point and as far as I remember even in the olden days PST was considered a weak RPG and a good adventure game. Since now the thread is mostly about BC and I have no opinion on that subject, I commented only on your post mentioning our conversation.
 

Lesifoere

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Messages
4,071
Vault Dweller said:
Lesifoere said:
No, no. I seriously think you should emulate her manner of typing. It'll be refreshing and potentially hilarious. Be a good sport, dear boy; not everything should be read with connotations of butthurt and I don't lace everything with sarcasm.
I've thought about it, but then I realized that I know nothing about her strange language. What the fuck is a nya and where does one use it?

I believe you end your sentences with "nya." It translates to meow apparently.

"Turn-based combat and stuff. AoD will feature this consequences thingie, nya."

The publicity of AoD would skyrocket: sex sells, and sex kittens talking kawaiisa (not sure what that is) will sell extra. Trust me, I've worked in marketing and read ancient Egyptian manuscripts scrip at eleven.
 

Lesifoere

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4,071
I actually don't. "Kawaii", yeah. "Desu desu desu" meme, sure. Never heard of kawaiisa before.
 

Black Cat

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Skyrim .///.
@ Lesifoere

So you are talking about ridiculing me when you are the one telling me Angela Carter and Susan Byatt are, like, cultured stuff while i am talking of bloody Johann Weyer, right? Sorry, i just, like, wanted to checkity check because having the monkeys cheer you means little, if anything at all. Now i can understand where you are coming from, i guess. Want to answer to me talking of, like, John Dee or Giordiano Bruno by mentioning some random winner of that Nebula thingie? And don't forget the speculative fiction writers. Cultured girl indeed, nya. :roll:

The rest doesn't even, like, deserve an answer. The amusing thing is that you keep pulling my age as if that someway makes me wrong, while i would say the only one humiliated by thinking Speculative Fiction Writers make you cultured and literate in her twenties would be you while, you say, a sixteen years old girl reads Weyer, and even knows who the bleep he is. Meh, commoner as i said: Your culture is nothing more than folk crap and entertainment stuff, nya.

And if my fangirl-speak thingie is still up to date Kawaiisa is, like, Cuteness just as Kawaii is Cute and stuff and thingies.
 

Lesifoere

Liturgist
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Oct 26, 2007
Messages
4,071
You've gone back to being boring again. But if I understand right, you aren't even doing this as a parody of animu fucktards but this is genuinely your natural preference?

I'm overusing this adjective now, but: Lovecraftian.
 

Black Cat

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Skyrim .///.
Yes, it is. Can we now go back to the, like, Torment discussion? I think we were in the part where i kept pulling games that did almost everything better and you guys, like, kept telling me Torment is still one of the best role playing games ever because it has, like, a plot, and character thingies. :roll:
 

hiver

Guest
I do understand that people have a lot of love for this particular game, but sometimes I wonder if it's not mostly nostalgia talking in some cases and buying into other fans' hype in others
NO.

Torment is still one of the best role playing games ever because it has, like, a plot, and character thingies.
I think we that like it have numbered more things than that.
If you can take your mind off Lesi for a few minutes and stop pre-judging everything else we say you might really understand what is we like about it.

Its very clear that you notice the game flaws much more then its good features while you also dont care for those features in RPGs in general.
So its seems its rather futile to try to get you to understand what we like so much.
But, lets try.

Apart from the great story and setting and characters (Companions and NPCs) one thing where Planescape stands above many RPGs is the quality of side-quests.
Thats one of the thingies (damn) i consider best about it.

Mechanics of them might not be anything special and involve going from one NPC to the other in most cases. What makes them special is that they are not combat oriented and their little stories make you actually care about characters in them while they expand the setting lore in brilliant ways. Their stories, characters and resolutions.

Find a girl scared out of her mind of stepping accidentally through portals.
Find an old, last priest of a God who ruled Sigil before the Lady.
All the little quests in the Brothel
All the quests for different factions.
etc
etc

Planescape Torment is one of the best RPGs ever made.
Its certainly the best character/story driven RPG ever made.
For me its one of the best games i played.
 

Derper

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Darth Roxor said:
Krondor's plot (and its exposition) rapes Torment in every orifice, so do the quests, I couldn't give a fuck about C&C and character development is good for what it is (LULZ!!1).
Better RPG and couldn't give a fuck about C&C and character development doesn't rhyme in my book. We should do "What is a RPG"!!!eleven1!

Pretty much everything and everyone you find in Krondor is somehow linked to the main plot, not to mention that the story is exposed not through HOLYSHITGIANTWALLSOFTEXTFROMVITALCHARACTERS but through subtle nuances, characters that may seem completely irrelevant, twists and your own deduction - NOTHING is thrown 'in your face', you can never know who to trust, who's telling the truth, who's trying to deceive you or who's giving you vital info disguised as seemingly pointless smalltalk.
Yes, it's a good story, but not better than PS:T. Different taste is different.

Setting might be standard fantasy land, but it also has an awesome chapter in a post-apo 'de-magicked' wasteland.

Quests? They might not be numerous, but they're all done with extreme attention to detail, not to mention that there's not a single pointless FedEx quest, and ALL (and I literally mean ALL) of them are tied to the main plot in some way.
That chapter (8?) is easily the weakest one in the bunch. It's been a while since I played it, but isn't there a quest to fetch a special suit of armor for a guy in the first city you reach heading south? Can't remember how that is connected to the main plot?

Krondor is the perfect blend of RPG mechanics and storytelling, that will probably never be topped. Never.
Leaving out C&C and character development, as you said earlier. It's a great game, I agree, it's in the top four all-time best. But not better than PS:T.
 

treave

Arcane
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Jul 6, 2008
Messages
11,370
Codex 2012
It's like I took a wrong turn and ended up on Gaia Online forums, but with erudite walls of text.

Black Cat said:
And if my fangirl-speak thingie is still up to date Kawaiisa is, like, Cuteness just as Kawaii is Cute and stuff and thingies.

可愛さ.

As far as Torment goes, the companions were probably an important reason why it is well-liked. Turn Dakkon into, say, an Anomen(Carth-Sky-Kaidan-Alistair)-archetype, and the appeal of the game would probably drop. Say what you will, Torment did pull off its characterization quite well compared to several games that came before and after.
 

Derper

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Aaaargh
Quilty said:
THIS MUST STOP MAN THINK OF YOUR MASCULINITY.
He is eagerly LARPing a stupid, boring girl. Too late to break out of character. Drog roleplayed his profile too, so they might be one and the same?
 

Quilty

Magister
Joined
Apr 11, 2008
Messages
2,412
Derper said:
Quilty said:
THIS MUST STOP MAN THINK OF YOUR MASCULINITY.
He is eagerly LARPing a stupid, boring girl. Too late to break out of character. Drog roleplayed his profile too, so they might be one and the same?

What a bloodcurdling idea.
 

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