Playing through TOEE with CO8

[Scroo]

"best combat system of all time in an RPG"

Good god no.

Which one aside from maybe KotC is better?

 

[FeelTheRads]

New Vegas.

Spoiler

 

[Roguey]

I'd rather not compare apples and oranges.

Which one aside from maybe KotC is better?

All these games have a problem with being fundamentally junk, it's difficult comparing one piece of trash to another.

 

[Scroo]

Why did I even ask

 

[Deitti]

Overall, this game basically combines the worst combat encounters ever with perhaps the best combat system of all time in an RPG. What a pathetic waste.

Unfortunately there is truth to this. Vanilla ToEE has very few(like one challenging?) challenging/interesting combat encounters in the end. CO8 tries to fix this, sometimes succeeding, sometimes failing. I still consider ToEE to be alot better with CO8 since it brings alot of good things like being able to skip Hommlet, making moathouse atleast little bit more challenging, bringing extra encounters against pre-buffed parties even in the non-NC version and so on.

 

[Doctor Sbaitso]

Best turn-based? Yes, pretty universally opined to be. Is TB better than RTwP? Good god yes, even your Joshy agrees.

 

[Rivmusique]

Needs more grid.

 

[roshan]

Uh, the original game was lvlcap 10, assuming you did all quests you would be lvl3 when you begin Moathouse and about 4-6 when you begin Temple.

If you're lvl6 already, then I assume you did Co8 added/restored content.

Co8 isn't balanced, as you probably guessed. I hope you didn't extend lvlcap to 20, it's a faceroll. I can confirm Co8 is doable with lvl10 party.

I am not talking about the moathouse, I'm talking about the temple itself. I am 5th level in the temple, doing the Earth dungeon. Just leveled up to 6. But so far I have not found any combat encounters that I couldn't have won with a level 2 party.

CO8 is actually fairly balanced, the only new content that actually provided any XP was a new area filled with goblins and kobolds, and that was only enough XP to bring a party from level 1 to 2. AFAIK most of the CO8 content has been moved to after the temple is completed, when you proceed to Verbobonc.

 

[Roguey]

Best turn-based? Yes, pretty universally opined to be.

No.

Is TB better than RTwP? Good god yes, even your Joshy agrees.

No he doesn't. He just said he would prefer to make a turn-based game, not that it's better.

http://www.rpgcodex.net/content.php?id=127

TB vs RT. What are your thoughts, preferences, ideas? Also, you were trying to implement both modes in FO3, how did that work out? From your experience, is having both modes in one game a viable option or a disaster? Any comments on the Arcanum's dual system implementation?

I think both real-time and turn-based combat have the potential to be awesome or terrible. I just want the combat to be executed well. I do think that round-based combat is pretty clunky and antiquated for CRPGs whether you're acting in real-time or turns.

 

[ikarinokami]

without question the best combat system in an RPG.

 

[tuluse]

best combat system in an rpg is still tallest midget

 

[Doctor Sbaitso]

Best turn-based? Yes, pretty universally opined to be.

No.

Is TB better than RTwP? Good god yes, even your Joshy agrees.

No he doesn't. He just said he would prefer to make a turn-based game, not that it's better.

http://www.rpgcodex.net/content.php?id=127

TB vs RT. What are your thoughts, preferences, ideas? Also, you were trying to implement both modes in FO3, how did that work out? From your experience, is having both modes in one game a viable option or a disaster? Any comments on the Arcanum's dual system implementation?

I think both real-time and turn-based combat have the potential to be awesome or terrible. I just want the combat to be executed well. I do think that round-based combat is pretty clunky and antiquated for CRPGs whether you're acting in real-time or turns.

Clearly he is not going to poo poo the current project. That would not be wise, but it might be career limiting. "His game" would have turn based combat. Hmmm. If you think RTwP is better you are on an island.

 

[FeelTheRads]

Wait, what was Roguey's problem with KOTC? Ah, right, it's because that game single-handedly proves Sawyer wrong in pretty much all his whinings so he conveniently avoids to mention it whenever talking about how all RPGs suck because of this or that.

Well, either that or it's because it doesn't have a quest or character compass and possibly some minigames too.

 

[Roguey]

If you think RTwP is better you are on an island.

I never said better. It's all about execution.

Wait, what was Roguey's problem with KOTC? Ah, right, it's because that game single-handedly proves Sawyer wrong in pretty much all his whinings so he conveniently avoids to mention it whenever talking about how all RPGs suck because of this or that.

There are a lot of things incredibly wrong with KotC especially in regards to crafting, and balance between a party with two knights and a party that's mostly spellcasters.

Given my playstyle it was all right content-wise for the most part.

 

[Doctor Sbaitso]

Crafting is not combat. Stay on topic. Cheesers will cheese. I guarantee every game in existence can be cheesed; that has nothing to do with combat.

My two warrior party was awesome and I did not abuse crafting. If you are suggesting it is too hard I don't agree.. it was very challenging and really rewarding. The only party restriction reallly was that you must have one spell caster or it becomes overly difficult.

Machanically combat is KoTC is masterwork.

 

[Roguey]

Crafting is not combat.

Crafting as a system has a direct effect on combat.

Any game that uses 3.5 as a base can't be described as a masterwork.

 

[mettalhed]

Played this with CO8 back when it was version 5. Really been meaning to play through it again with the newer version of the mod.

This is definitely one of the best turn based games i have played. It's main weakness is more in the encounters themselves. IMO the fun of the combat and trying different character builds more then makes up for it.

Also, fucking beautiful graphics. Wish the engine had seen more use.

 

[Sitra Achara]

In case anyone is planning a playthrough, there's a new version coming out next week.

 

[Telengard]

Am curious, would there be demand for a mod that tossed strict rules and p&p material adherence out the window and buffed the encounters to hell but sans the xp inflation?

I'm certain there would.

But you do have the major problem of the AI. The trouble with the combat is actually twofold - encounter design and AI. The strict adherence to ad&d encounters in a 3rd edition world, not to mention encounters that were built for attrition combat not rest anywhere, those things really hurt. But the other side of that coin is the AI's inability to make use of everything available to it. Essentially, the system is too complex for the AI as is to understand. So, no matter what you do, the party is going to have winning tools available to it that the enemy will never have. And even if you added in the ability to make use of those tools, the AI could never decide when would be a good time to make use of those tools, and thus would just break itself whenever it tried to use them outside of heavily scripted events.

Which leaves you with doing the usual hp/ac bloat of enemies and/or more of them. And doing that, the core experience will remain the same; it will just take more rounds of doing the same thing to beat the enemy.

Despite that, though, I'm certain there's a number of people out there who would be happy with just that.

 

[tarasis]

In case anyone is planning a playthrough, there's a new version coming out next week.

Thanks that's useful to know. I was just setting up for my first ever play through of ToEE. This morning I installed the GOG version, plus 8.0.0 + 8.0.1 CO8 & their expansion mod.

I was actually curious, as someone new to the game, if it would be better to start with the mod, get a hang of the mechanics and then go back and play the main game.

 

[Sitra Achara]

Not sure I understand what you mean, but ToEE has a pretty good tutorial and in-game help system that should get you going.

 

[TheGameSquid]

Does Co8 actually address the bugs left in the vanilla game, or does it only change up the game encounter/mechanics-wise? I started playing ToEE about three times now, but had to stop playing every time because my save games were getting corrupted and was forced to roll back to a previous save (which was sometimes 4-5 hours ago). I was wondering if Co8 fixed that in some way.

Has anyone else experienced the save-game corruption in a recent playthrough? Any tips on avoiding the issue, or does anyone know the cause of the problem?

 

[roshan]

Does Co8 actually address the bugs left in the vanilla game, or does it only change up the game encounter/mechanics-wise? I started playing ToEE about three times now, but had to stop playing every time because my save games were getting corrupted and was forced to roll back to a previous save (which was sometimes 4-5 hours ago). I was wondering if Co8 fixed that in some way.

Has anyone else experienced the save-game corruption in a recent playthrough? Any tips on avoiding the issue, or does anyone know the cause of the problem?

I don't know if the corruptions happen in specific areas, but none of my games have become corrupted thus far. That said I quit at the first dungeon level. (the last time I tried to play through it I also got bored and quit at the same level.....)

 

[Baron Dupek]

I encountered save corruption once, luckly I save quite often in that game so no need to return few hours back. And certainly you shouldn't use quicksaves, that's corrupt guarantee.

 

[SCO]

Save game 'corruption' happens because you didn't disable autosaves and used quicksaving. But the game has other unfixed horrible bugs, like the nodes slowdown among other things.