POLL - Which famous codexers should be in the Project Eternity Codex squad?

[Kaiserin]

stuff

 

[Menckenstein]

the encounter should just be a handful of trolls with an ungoldy amount of HP attacking each other (doing no damage) and hurling insults around. if the player's party does anything other than leave the area they get a game over screen with the text that they engaged the trolls in combat but succumbed to old age.

 

[thesoup]

To DarkUnderlord, for causing severe cases of butthurt, especially when he isn't even trying to.

 

[RK47]

To DarkUnderlord, for causing severe cases of butthurt, especially when he isn't even trying to.

OMG SPOILERS ASSHOLE

 

[mondblut]

I never thought to live to the day the Kodexxx will be demanded to "portray (insert a minority name) in positive and non-stereotypical way". Not bioware begged to "push another groundbreaking boundary" by the BSN freakos. Not poor Kickstarter developers being flooded by stray BSN freakos. The Kodexxx.

And yeah, we do have an awfully bad sense of humour. Deal with it.

 

[Mangoose]

Indeed I've posted my voice here on the codex before and it was not at all male sounding, why let's have a listen shall we:
http://tinypic.com/usermedia.php?uo=MSazeq4CIlOoGAYCw4mPh4h4l5k2TGxc

You sound like a fat chick.

 

[Excommunicator]

Thread about the forum coming together to donate thousands of dollars of real money so that people can collectively participate in real game design in a momentous million $ old-school RPG.

Thread becomes a discussion entirely about memes, trannies, butthurt and GD.

 

[pipka]

Yet again. Codex. Codex never changes.

 

[DarkUnderlord]

So basing something on events that have actually happened is, according to you, "a cliche" - seemingly some kind of horrible stereotype - and we should instead ignore what has actually happened and create some kind of false portrayal instead?

This is entirely divorced from my original sentiment, and honestly it's a strawman. I never said what you *should* put up there,

No, just that what was there - which was based on real life, actual events - was "cliched, unoriginal and derivative". It's not my fault SMA has an apparently "cliched, unoriginal and derivative" life which she posts about on the Codex. Gosh, in fact I never knew that doing tranny porn and living in tranny girlfriend manor was such an unoriginal, cliche and so common amongst the transexual community.

I'll remember that in future and go for something totally non-cliched and original (which is, after all, what you've been arguing for): You encounter a tranny. She appears to be mentally healthy and has no issues with her gender what-so-ever. She tells you that she's never even done porn!

I said what I find distasteful, and most importantly I just said that I am glad that I'm not involved in your ridicule.

Yes, that was on page 6. On page 7 you called it a "yet another tasteless and utterly derivative joke", and said I'd called you autistic (which I think was actually someone else - though I don't know where that came from). By page 8, you'd taken up the cause on behalf of all transexuals ("If any reference to me (or trannies at large..."). By the end of page 8 you were calling them clowns - while arguing the cause on behalf of all transexuals everywhere ("I definitely will voice my concern over how we are depicted if it does come to that").

... and now we're on page 10.

If you're so cool with the original reference, why are you still here arguing against it, calling it a clown-like reference and (at least as I see it) seemingly denigrating everything SMA's done in her life as "cliched"? I'm very sorry SMA's lived an apparently cliched and unoriginal life, but there's not much I can do about it. It is her life after all.

Although in that thread:

Because nobody is ever going to lie to get a rise out of me.

Yes, I'm certain everyone is lying. All of them. Lies!

But what does that have to do with anything? Why does me making a mistake justify raking me over the coals forever in your opinion?

Same reason Cleve gets mentioned. Same reason Andhaira gets mentioned. Same reason Saint gets mentioned with a ban hammer even though he's been dead and hasn't been an administrator for about five years now. When you tell someone about the Codex, or when denizens here talk about the Codex, what do they say?

The RPG Codex is a dangerous dungeon meant for high level players only. Commonly encountered creatures include Neo-Nazi Trolls, dungeon junkie furries, transsexual succubi and multiheaded abominations. Cleveland Mark Blakemore, of Grimoire fame, is the final boss and is capable of casting the instant death spell ITZ. If you manage to defeat him, Chris Avellone will fly down from the heavens on a chariot made of gold and give you a pint of his urine, which will grant you a powerful blessing.​

Now tell me again that these aren't based on any personal observation.

You've now shifted goalposts and I can only think that you are being intentionally dishonest. You said that was the case not only for SMA, but myself and ALL trannies.

No, again that's one of those things you read that I never actually said. Once again, the reference I believed, was a reasonably honest one based on the posts SMA had made here over many years.

Just because not all Swans are Black, doesn't mean we shouldn't include any Black swans in our game. Nor does the inclusion of a Black swan mean that all Swans are black. Your argument appears to be that Black swans are "ugly clown-like things that are horribly cliched", ignoring the fact that the reference is a depiction of entirely real events.

Stereotype. Sure, that must be what that is. Totally.

I myself said that many trannies are in that misfortunate position

So why do you have such an issue with it then? Why do you keep saying "NOT ALL TRANNIES ARE LIKE THAT!!!"

That's nice. This reference is not about all trannies. So any other tranny and his or her experiences are entirely irrelevent. Which begs the question: Why did you raise any concern at all?

I simply said that it's unoriginal to offer yet another depiction of a tranny who is in the midst of transition.

WHICH.

WOULD.

NOT.

BE.

BASED.

ON.

SMA.

YOU.

DOLT.

This is NOT about portraying your general run of the fucking mill tranny in P:E, it's about reference to a Codexian, in a Codexian encounter. Jesus Christ, get that through your thick head and stop arguing about all this other irrelevant shit which you seemingly have no issue with - and yet keep bringing up every fucking time. And you know what, if we choose to represent a transexual who isn't one of the apparently "lucky ones", why is that an issue at all?

He never mentioned it, and nobody else wanted to go there. Instead, it was something everyone spoke about when they weren't around. The other is of that age where nobody cares - but again, it's the elephant in the room that gets mentioned in whispered conversations when she's not around.

Did any of you hang out with her on a personal basis? As in, did any of you go over to their house and actually try to be their friend?

Not going around and saying it to everyone that you meet doesn't mean that you 'never mention it to anyone.'

Being friend != general conversation. Of course you tell your friends things you don't tell other people. If you encounter a transexual in a "business" situation it's highly unlikely they'll say "Oh and by the way, I'm a transexual didn't ya know!" Remember: We're designing a brief encounter in a computer game here. What do you want, the PC to become her friend in under 5 minutes so they can get the whole life story?

Understand the context of the conversation we are having please, for fuck's sake. I note once again, that this has become not about the game and the portrayal, but what about "other" transexuals - whom we aren't even bothered about representing - are like. It is entirely irrelevant.

Maybe it's just bad luck that means I'm not meeting the hot sexy ones.

Inconspicuous != hot sexy, you are putting words in my mouth.

I was being loose with my phrasing. Don't take it literally.

It also goes without saying that if you encountered a transgender person who was inconspicuous then you never would have known it.

Yes but we're not encountering one of those, are we?

I mean, are we? I thought you just ruled out us having anything to do with "transexuals at large" as you are the great stalwart of the transgender community and you, and only you, shall decide what goes in a game and what doesn't when it comes to how transsexuals are portrayed... And then get all confused as to whether you actually have an issue or whether it's "just unoriginal" and you'd prefer it wasn't in because you feel it's been done before.

Can't we just have a male model with a female name and leave it up to the player to make their own judgements about what's going on?

Because I think it's been done to death and I personally feel that passable transsexuals are underrepresented in media.

And why should we care what you think? You're just another human being with another opinion. If we decide to make whatever reference we like, why should your opinion matter above those who are ultiamtely deciding what will and won't end up in the game?

Are the players going to be able to view the character sheet directly? Couldn't the information be conveyed through something other than the character sheet itself? Isn't that just for Obsidian's use?

I dunno. I thought in IE games you could see the character sheet of things.

Yes, and some aren't that lucky. Both exist.

Not to say that there are not a very significant portion of us who have the misfortune of not appeared as the gender they feel they are, but to level these comments at myself , or trannies at large, is ridiculous.

It's a good thing I didn't then.

And yet here you are, first engaging in this thread expressing your relief that this in-game character representation isn't you.

So the fact that I talk about it at all, even in response to what others say, means that I am 'basing my persona around my gender issues?'

Yes. Let's face it, what other conversations have I had with you? Every time it's been about your gender or gender related issues. I don't think "there's Kaiserin, she'll end up asking about diplomatic options in the game regarding rats or telling me another of her prophecies of doom". I think "I just mentioned a gender issue. How long is it before Kaiserin comes along, I wonder?"

It's why I mentioned you as the "transgender wannabe" to MCA. Because my interaction with you on the Codex has given me that perception of you. Just as denizi's carrying on has made us think he/she too has gender issues.

Then explaining how sex and gender are defined in social literature and talking about transgender issues

Because you insisted that she was male in an essential manner, and that nobody could ever actually achieve their aspiration of living out their self-identified gender role. That's patently false, and I provided examples to the contrary.

And once again, we're not talking about "those other people", are we?

and how many people find you bangable,

After you implied that nobody could ever possibly mistake me for a woman.

Fun Fact™: Just because people find you bangable, isn't proof they think you're a woman.

Again, I'm simply countering the arguments you present. If it were any other topic, I would be doing the same thing.

Yes, but I can always get you in on the gender related topics. It'd be like FretRider posting as much as he does in the politics forum and then saying "I do other things!". Sure, from time to time, he does. But there are clearly issues he holds close and dear to him.

This. This right here. This very conversation.

How? Why? The fact that you started making comments about me, falsely assuming that I thought the character was about me, and essentially baiting me into an argument? That is notable?

Yep.

And how many times did Cleve say he had metal bones? I'm pretty sure it was just the once. But it was quoted often, much like that dancing one of you naked with the cock hanging out has been posted around the place. And how many times did rat diplomacy come up? Again, I think that too was just once. As a result, Andy Haria becomes a rat-faced individual. Make a mistake once, and it's with you for life.

Do a metric actually, I'm reasonably certain that in both cases they have made mention of exactly those things many many more times than I have made threads about being transgender.

'k.

Posts by "Kaiserin" and "Harpsichord" that mention the words *trans* and *trann* (may include any time you mention transmisions or an incorrectly spelt trannsylvania):

SELECT * FROM `xf_post` WHERE (user_id = 9240 OR user_id = 14381) AND (message LIKE '% transsexual%' OR message LIKE '%transgender%' OR message LIKE '%transexual%')​

= 84 results (note that's 84 separate posts, the actual words may be mentioned multiple times in any given post). Post sampling:

• The simple fact of the matter is that I don't have to tell my employer that I'm a tranny.
• Dickgirls are female to male transsexuals.
• "transgender male" Just so you know, the academic community labels them 'backward,' by most of ya'll's reckoning.
• It may be a legitimate model for some people that fit within the spectrum of transgender behavior.
• Rather, I am a transsexual, and have had experiences unique to those who have made such a decision.

Posts by Cleveland Mark Blakemore that mention the word "bones":

SELECT * FROM `xf_post` WHERE user_id = 9382 AND message LIKE '%bones%'​

= 44 total results. Here's a sampling of those results:

• Much like the baboons shrieking and waving animal bones at the black monolith in 2001:A Space Odyssey
• Anybody who get into the ravine already crawled over a fence and passed two signs with skull and crossbones.
• 1. Superior physical strength and mass upon reaching adulthood. Stronger bones like a tank to armor them with.
• cleve i saw an episode of house where a woman's bones were turning to stone. (a line by someone else Cleve quotes)
• Funny how we find a dinosaur bone in fossil rock, it's scienmajific
• But, with all the dinosaur bones and excavations and the like, nothing
• Problem is most of what you spew is senseless crap. Titanium bones, Cheetas cloned by ancient civilizations (Again, a live said by someone else which is in Cleve's post because he quotes it)

So for starters, just the word "bones" itself is mentioned half as many times by Cleve as the number of times you talk about transgender or transexual issues.

And in fact a look through of Cleve's posts for those times when it's related to him, seems to indicate that for the vast majority of cases the reference is there only because Cleve is quoting someone else who said "titanium bones". In other words, the difference between information he's putting out versus what others are calling him.

Yes, I know. It's like how you've been saying how much you don't care, while clearly expressing how much you do care.

Where did I ever say that I don't care in this thread?

"I simply said that it's unoriginal to offer yet another depiction of a tranny who is in the midst of transition."

"Again, it's her baby and while I think it's distasteful to ridicule her even further, I won't stand in the way of you doing it."

"Again, I'm not sure why you made the assumption that my argument with you as an individual meant that I felt every single one of my points should make it into the game."​

So are you "simply saying that it's unoriginal" and you "won't stand in the way" - or do you actually care? Because those statements (along with all those that were similar) imply that you're pretending to be less invested in this conversation than you actually are.

I don't think I ever did actually, I just said that I am forced to grit my teeth and *deal* with whatever hand you decide to give SMA in this debacle. Not once did I ever say that I don't care what you do, I simply said that I am obligated to not interfere on her behalf.

And yet here you are - and on another note, telling us all once again about how many people find you bangable.

You can't escape the past, no matter how much you might like to.

I haven't deluded myself into thinking that I can escape it, but I don't see why a lack of endorsement for my own involvement is necessarily construed that way by you.

Oh yeah I do, because you honestly don't give a shit and you are going out of your way to intentionally turn the things I say on their head in order. I acquired a profound distaste for you after the last fundraiser in spite of never having had even the slightest streak of Rancor before that moment. Since then though, and given how you handled it, and your justification for ridiculing people, and obvious lack of anything like remorse, I can only think that you are something of a sociopathic asshole. Not in any sort of a legit sense, I doubt you behave this way when you are face to face with people, but you've entrenched yourself in this forum position and it's made you really callous to pretty much any and everything.

Trust me, with the shit I deal with here on just a day-to-day basis, you have to be pretty callous. Let's face it, SMA posted porn of herself on my internet forum. If I was less callous, I'd have banned her ass. NoMask tells us about how much the holocaust was a lie every chance he gets, again, any less callous and he'd be gone too (actually what he does is illegal in some countries). So too would FretRider and probably Humanity has risen - even though he's played it relatively safe. Not to mention Andhaira, prosper and even Volourn.

Any of these people on any other forum, simply would've been thrown out a long, long time ago. No really, I'd like to see you go and have a transgender discussion in the "off-topic" Community Discussion forums at Bethesda Softworks and see how long it takes for your thread to be deleted and your account banned.

A lot of shit happens on the Codex that I actually disagree with or out-right wouldn't allow if I was adamant about it.

The thing is, I believe in freedom of expression and freedom of speech. I believe that all of you idiots have the right to express your stupid, backwards, dumbass, retarded opinions about whatever shit it is you think is important to you - as much as you like.

But that means that if you come here, to my internet forum (I'm officially now the only one of what could be called the original founders left - plus saying "my" stops all those rule Nazi idiots who like to play stupid games), and you tell us all about your life - in a way that results in you being seen to be the foolish one and generating a myriad of memes, then don't be surprised when that comes up in future when people are seeking to portray you or make reference to you in a computer game.

I'm not the first, nor the only person, who said "hey we need a tranny reference" in this thread. Think about why that is. For as much as you like to say you pass as female and whatever, we all know you are a transexual. We all know about SMA. We all know about PennyAnte and Ausir and the whole kit and kaboodle.

I never asked for any of this. I never put up a sign that said "Hey, so tell us about your transgender issues". You - and all the others here with their pet issues, mental health and girlfriends and whatever - opted for that decision. When you choose to give information about yourself to other people, you change how those people perceive you forever.

You've rationalized that here we are on the internet, so none of that actually has any real gravity, even when real money is involved. It's a sickening delusion that you've cultivated to feel good about letting your shadow come out and play.

Which leads me to ask again: Why are you even holding this argument with me? What is your incentive? I have already said that I feel morally obliged to not interfere with any depiction of SMA that you put forward, and that I only seek to distance myself from this debacle. Given that you are only discussing the inclusion of SMA, why then do you feel a need to argue with me? Again, I know that you don't care about what I think or how I feel, this much is obvious, and I'm not serving as any kind of a road block, so what is your impetus?

Once again, you're back to saying you don't care ("I have already said that I feel morally obliged to not interfere", "Given that you are only discussing the inclusion of SMA, why then do you feel a need to argue with me?") - and yet here you are.

Why am "I" having this conversation with "you"? I wasn't. You're the one who replied to a reference that had nothing to do with you. And I did what I would have done to anyone who said "Boy I'm glad I didn't get mentioned!", I posted an example of how I might reference them, based on my perceptions from what they've posted. You're the one who mentioned clowns.

 

[canakin]

 

[WhiskeyWolf]

Well, one thing is blindingly obvious thanks to this thread - The Codex Party members have to constantly fight each other, that's a given.

 

[attackfighter]

Bullies I always figured were dysfunctional people who took their anger out on vulnerable targets, in order to feel better about themselves.

What separates this from habitually harassing people to get a rise? I mean, you're doing it for entertainment, and entertainment has a way of making you feel good.

In the case of bullies I'd imagine it's the feeling of power and release of pent up rage that's making them feel good, where as when Dicksmoker is harassed for example it's just because it's funny. Also people like Dicksmoker bring it all upon themselves - notice how he's only ever been harassed while attention whoring to the extreme. I even suspect that Dicksmoker secretly WANTED to create some sort of drama (although not in the way it ended up panning out). Same with Prosper - he continually posts insane ramblings and artwork on several forums, playing up his own insanity to some degree, it's hard to think that he isn't wanting the responses he gets.

 

[Emily]

If there was just one person i could have voted, it would be Cleve to the death! He should have special ability Homo sapiens crusher - insta kills any human crushing his bones. Also his int score should be maximum there is and more : D

 

[DwarvenFood]

We should have this discussion between Kaiserin and DU in-game as party banter.

 

[CrustyBot]

We should have this discussion between Kaiserin and DU in-game as party banter.

Might as well forget the combat encounter, just have this discussion copy pasted into the game.

 

[Clockwork Knight]

But no one would read it, they'd probably just shoot DU and ka- oh.


oooooooh

 

[Kaiserin]

Gosh, in fact I never knew that doing tranny porn and living in tranny girlfriend manor was such an unoriginal, cliche and so common amongst the transexual community.

If you had brought up tranny manor this conversation wouldn't be happening.

I'll remember that in future and go for something totally non-cliched and original (which is, after all, what you've been arguing for): You encounter a tranny. She appears to be mentally healthy and has no issues with her gender what-so-ever. She tells you that she's never even done porn!

Strawman.

I said what I find distasteful, and most importantly I just said that I am glad that I'm not involved in your ridicule.

Yes, that was on page 6. On page 7 you called it a "yet another tasteless and utterly derivative joke", and said I'd called you autistic (which I think was actually someone else - though I don't know where that came from).

Again, implication.

By page 8, you'd taken up the cause on behalf of all transexuals ("If any reference to me (or trannies at large...").

With specific exclusion of SMA.

By the end of page 8 you were calling them clowns - while arguing the cause on behalf of all transexuals everywhere ("I definitely will voice my concern over how we are depicted if it does come to that").

... and now we're on page 10.

Just plain incorrect.

If you're so cool with the original reference, why are you still here arguing against it, calling it a clown-like reference and (at least as I see it) seemingly denigrating everything SMA's done in her life as "cliched"? I'm very sorry SMA's lived an apparently cliched and unoriginal life, but there's not much I can do about it. It is her life after all.

No I'm saying that you selected a rather sensational set of events that you felt depicted her in the most comedic light possible.

Yes, I'm certain everyone is lying. All of them. Lies!

Several people contradicted what he said, in fact more of them did. So yes, that means that he's either wrong, many people decided to lie on my behalf, or that he was trying to get a rise out of me.

Same reason Cleve gets mentioned. Same reason Andhaira gets mentioned. Same reason Saint gets mentioned with a ban hammer even though he's been dead and hasn't been an administrator for about five years now. When you tell someone about the Codex, or when denizens here talk about the Codex, what do they say?

The RPG Codex is a dangerous dungeon meant for high level players only. Commonly encountered creatures include Neo-Nazi Trolls, dungeon junkie furries, transsexual succubi and multiheaded abominations. Cleveland Mark Blakemore, of Grimoire fame, is the final boss and is capable of casting the instant death spell ITZ. If you manage to defeat him, Chris Avellone will fly down from the heavens on a chariot made of gold and give you a pint of his urine, which will grant you a powerful blessing.​

I don't see how that's relevant to me specifically. You also dodged the question over why you think that somebody making a mistake morally justifies you in giving them grief about it forever.​

No, again that's one of those things you read that I never actually said. Once again, the reference I believed, was a reasonably honest one based on the posts SMA had made here over many years.

So what was all of this 'you' business about if you were referring to SMA? If you were using it specifically, well then that was incorrect by your own testimony. If you were using it generally...well then yeah you just shifted goalposts. I've never encountered anybody else who uses 'you' to refer to a specific person in third person.

Just because not all Swans are Black, doesn't mean we shouldn't include any Black swans in our game. Nor does the inclusion of a Black swan mean that all Swans are black. Your argument appears to be that Black swans are "ugly clown-like things that are horribly cliched", ignoring the fact that the reference is a depiction of entirely real events.

My argument is that I'm glad I'm not involved and it would be cool if you handled it in another wa.

So why do you have such an issue with it then?

Because you can find hundreds of things exactly in this vein going back to Monty Python and SNL for decades. A man in a dress is one of the oldest comedic routines of the modern era that I can think of.

Why do you keep saying "NOT ALL TRANNIES ARE LIKE THAT!!!"

Because you inferred that they were, specifically by telling us a story about how you've never met one who was any different and using 'you' in regard to somebody that didn't fit the description you were providing.

That's nice. This reference is not about all trannies. So any other tranny and his or her experiences are entirely irrelevent. Which begs the question: Why did you raise any concern at all?

I didn't raise concern, I expressed relief that I wasn't going to be involved.

This is NOT about portraying your general run of the fucking mill tranny in P:E, it's about reference to a Codexian, in a Codexian encounter. Jesus Christ, get that through your thick head and stop arguing about all this other irrelevant shit which you seemingly have no issue with - and yet keep bringing up every fucking time. And you know what, if we choose to represent a transexual who isn't one of the apparently "lucky ones", why is that an issue at all?

It isn't, so long as it's SMA and not a generic tranny.

My issue with you guys depicted a 'generic tranny' being that I don't think that a group of fat asses who play CRPGs deserve to have a voice for trannies at large because they had a couple of transgendered posters.

If you depict SMA, that's her issue. I *care* about that, but at the same time I have other principles which compel me to not interfere, such as my respect for her to speak on her own behalf.

Being friend != general conversation. Of course you tell your friends things you don't tell other people. If you encounter a transexual in a "business" situation it's highly unlikely they'll say "Oh and by the way, I'm a transexual didn't ya know!" Remember: We're designing a brief encounter in a computer game here. What do you want, the PC to become her friend in under 5 minutes so they can get the whole life story?

Again, why do you take every argument against what you as a person have said and take that as my saying that's how it should be handled in the game? Why are you incapable of seeing that I'm not even arguing about 'the game' at this point, so much as I'm just arguing with you as a human being?

Understand the context of the conversation we are having please, for fuck's sake. I note once again, that this has become not about the game and the portrayal, but what about "other" transexuals - whom we aren't even bothered about representing - are like. It is entirely irrelevant.

Then why do you bring up things about people you worked with if they are irrelevant? You brought that into the conversation, not me.

I was being loose with my phrasing. Don't take it literally.

I think I could say the same thing regarding the way you've taken most of what I've said.

Yes but we're not encountering one of those, are we?

It was said in relevance to your personal stories about dealing with transgendered individuals in real life. If you want to come back and tell me that's irrelevant, why did you bring it up?

I mean, are we? I thought you just ruled out us having anything to do with "transexuals at large" as you are the great stalwart of the transgender community and you, and only you, shall decide what goes in a game and what doesn't when it comes to how transsexuals are portrayed... And then get all confused as to whether you actually have an issue or whether it's "just unoriginal" and you'd prefer it wasn't in because you feel it's been done before.

I didn't say you couldn't do it, mind you, I didn't appoint myself as anything other than a human being with a keyboard and internet access who was going to be sending a letter to Obsidian if you included a transgendered character(who wasn't SMA) and did so in a manner that I didn't agree with.

That's it.

And why should we care what you think?

I have no clue, why the fuck are you even bothering to talk to me about this?

You're just another human being with another opinion. If we decide to make whatever reference we like, why should your opinion matter above those who are ultiamtely deciding what will and won't end up in the game?

Again, I can't speak for all of that, suffice to say that I will take measures outside of whatever clout I'm given on this forum to see to it that the representation is handled sensitively if it includes anyone other than SMA.

I dunno. I thought in IE games you could see the character sheet of things.

Really? Wow I'm not even being sarcastic, I totally missed that you could do that with NPCs. I guess I will eat my hat if that's true, I thought you could only view the character sheet of party members.

It's a good thing I didn't then.

Again, I'm not familiar with anyone else who uses 'you' to refer to a specific person who isn't involved in the conversation.

Yes. Let's face it, what other conversations have I had with you?

None that were anything like worthwhile honestly.

Every time it's been about your gender or gender related issues.

With you, yeah. I honestly can't think of when I've seen you have a conversation with anyone that wasn't some sort of a bitter argument honestly. You might drop one liners or ask for information here and there, but any sort of back and forth between you and another human being who uses this forum seems to be oriented around discord and nothing else.

I think "I just mentioned a gender issue. How long is it before Kaiserin comes along, I wonder?"

I am satisfied with this assessment of my character actually, as it emphasizes that you were the one to bring up the gender issue to begin with.

It's why I mentioned you as the "transgender wannabe" to MCA. Because my interaction with you on the Codex has given me that perception of you.

I'm not sure how I'm any more of a 'wannabe' than any other, or how you could have gleaned that information off of the Codex.

And once again, we're not talking about "those other people", are we?

Then why did you speak generally and say 'the thing with transgederism is'? You spoke to the dynamics of transgenderism at large, and did not say 'this is what is going on with SMA...'

Fun Fact™: Just because people find you bangable, isn't proof they think you're a woman.

So there we have it, the 95% of Codex is gay and that 50 pages worth of hewing and hawing was entirely ceremonial.

What was that about denying reality?

So for starters, just the word "bones" itself is mentioned half as many times by Cleve as the number of times you talk about transgender or transexual issues.

I guess I gotta eat my hat on that one.

"I simply said that it's unoriginal to offer yet another depiction of a tranny who is in the midst of transition."​

"Again, it's her baby and while I think it's distasteful to ridicule her even further, I won't stand in the way of you doing it."​

"Again, I'm not sure why you made the assumption that my argument with you as an individual meant that I felt every single one of my points should make it into the game."​

I'm not seeing "I don't care" mentioned anywhere in there, simply an assertion that I feel ethically obliged to not interfere with her business.​

So are you "simply saying that it's unoriginal" and you "won't stand in the way" - or do you actually care?

Both, it pisses me off that you guys are ridiculing her in such a trite manner, but I think that if she does or doesn't want to be in a video game that is for her to come out and say.

Because those statements (along with all those that were similar) imply that you're pretending to be less invested in this conversation than you actually are.

Only if you are an idiot would you get that idea.

And yet here you are - and on another note, telling us all once again about how many people find you bangable.

Because you leveled a lot of entirely unfair comments at me that you now have personally said didn't apply to begin with.

The thing is, I believe in freedom of expression and freedom of speech. I believe that all of you idiots have the right to express your stupid, backwards, dumbass, retarded opinions about whatever shit it is you think is important to you - as much as you like.

Are we referring to SMA, me, or the Codex at large here?

But that means that if you come here, to my internet forum (I'm officially now the only one of what could be called the original founders left - plus saying "my" stops all those rule Nazi idiots who like to play stupid games), and you tell us all about your life - in a way that results in you being seen to be the foolish one and generating a myriad of memes, then don't be surprised when that comes up in future when people are seeking to portray you or make reference to you in a computer game.

I don't think I ever said I was shocked. Definitely disgusted though.

I'm not the first, nor the only person, who said "hey we need a tranny reference" in this thread. Think about why that is. For as much as you like to say you pass as female and whatever, we all know you are a transexual. We all know about SMA. We all know about PennyAnte and Ausir and the whole kit and kaboodle.

You mean we all know I'm a wannabe transsexual.

I also don't see how you're incapable of distinguishing somebody being given away based on their appearance vs people doing an investigation into that person's paper trail and pulling up photos and postings from three years earlier.

I never asked for any of this. I never put up a sign that said "Hey, so tell us about your transgender issues". You - and all the others here with their pet issues, mental health and girlfriends and whatever - opted for that decision. When you choose to give information about yourself to other people, you change how those people perceive you forever.

I don't think I ever said otherwise.

Once again, you're back to saying you don't care ("I have already said that I feel morally obliged to not interfere", "Given that you are only discussing the inclusion of SMA, why then do you feel a need to argue with me?") - and yet here you are.

Because you've kept making comments about me as a person(although evidently, you just use the word 'you' to connote SMA in specific, and also whenever you are talking about things that transgender people struggle with, again you are referring only to SMA)that I've chosen to defend myself against. Again, I'm not even arguing about the game at this point, this argument is with you as an individual about a sense of personal loathing that I have for you. It *started* with my commenting about being happy to not be involved, but you reacted in such a way that it quickly transformed, from my perspective, into a very personal verbal fight.

You're the one who mentioned clowns.

Again, implication.

 

[Kaiserin]

Indeed I've posted my voice here on the codex before and it was not at all male sounding, why let's have a listen shall we:
http://tinypic.com/usermedia.php?uo=MSazeq4CIlOoGAYCw4mPh4h4l5k2TGxc

You sound like a fat chick.

Which seems to corroborate my telling of events.

Also, I will point out that:

Heh, you don't have a female voice. But you don't really sound like a male either. Your voice is that one of a boy. I assume that's because IIRC you started taking hormones at early age, and your voice never broke. Interesting.

Also essentially says that I sound like a woman, placing emphasis on the fact that he recognizes that my voice never broke. There is no 'feminization' of vocal cords that occurs in pubescence, only a virilization. Un-virilized vocal cords = feminine vocal cords.

 

[Mangoose]

*You sound like a boy trying to sound like a fat chick.

 

[Mother Russia]

The fuck? Moi..an elf? WTF??

I should be a conan type character with bulging muscles and berzerker rage (roid rage/schizoid mode) OR a monk with kung fu (sanshou) skillz OR a misterious warrior mage OR...most preferably, a PALADIN with a Crescent on his shield.

Anyhow, all selected dumbfucks should fill out their own sheets and send them directly to Obsidian. That way no one else knows their strengths or their weaknesses, thus making the encounter fresh for all codexians when they play the game. Else, we will all have DISCUSSED!! our characters and their classes/builds to death, thus growing bored with them before the game even comes out.

Also, Kaserin, no one here ever fapped to you. No, not even KingComrade. He was just playin' ya for a foo'.

Also, SMA isn't even on the poll, so why are you arguing about trannies?

 

[Kaiserin]

*You sound like a boy trying to sound like a fat chick.

Gee, that's not contrived.

 

[DarkUnderlord]

If you're so cool with the original reference, why are you still here arguing against it, calling it a clown-like reference and (at least as I see it) seemingly denigrating everything SMA's done in her life as "cliched"? I'm very sorry SMA's lived an apparently cliched and unoriginal life, but there's not much I can do about it. It is her life after all.

No I'm saying that you selected a rather sensational set of events that you felt depicted her in the most comedic light possible.

And this compares to Cleve who's depicted in a serious manner as a Barbarian with a loin cloth? And Andhaira who's a rat-faced creature?

"a male, wearing a female's outfit, with shaved legs"​

That's all I had for the transexual reference. Please tell me how that is inaccurate - because that's the real issue here for you, isn't it? Your first interpretation of just that piece of information was "omg trannies are so darned gross and silly!". You've tried to argue that it's a clown-like interpretation of transgender individuals, cliched, unoriginal and stereotyped while admitting that the interpretation is also valid ("I myself said that many trannies are in that misfortunate position").

Now this description is either an entirely valid way to portray a transexual character - in which case there would be many other transexuals, other than just SMA, who fit the representation - or it is not. Which is it?

I don't see how that's relevant to me specifically. You also dodged the question over why you think that somebody making a mistake morally justifies you in giving them grief about it forever.
[...]
So what was all of this 'you' business about if you were referring to SMA? If you were using it specifically, well then that was incorrect by your own testimony. If you were using it generally...well then yeah you just shifted goalposts. I've never encountered anybody else who uses 'you' to refer to a specific person in third person.

Because you've made this, once again, all about you. Right from your very first post.

"Ya know, at first I was butthurt that I seem to be entirely out of the running on this one in spite of being one of the Warriors of Diversity, but if the inclusion of myself means that I'm going to go down as yet another entirely unoriginal and derivative version of 'omg trannies are so darned gross and silly!' then I'm finding myself increasingly relieved that I've fallen off into anonymity."​

You said you were butthurt about not being included, so I modified the character to include references to yourself. Those changes included adding "Kaiser" (your name), changing the outfit specifically to a "dress", "Harpsichord" (your other account), and sheet music which "has been written for men" (a reference to your comment about the Codex). At that time, I added in the NoMask chest reference, split from partner Penny and KingComrade's thread - stickied in Retardo - that "outed" you as a transexual.

Apparently all this makes the character look "clownish". Which is interesting, given it is all based on events that have occured on the Codex in relation to both yourself and SMA.

The thing that seems to have upset you the most is that the character model itself is "male" - because that's all there is to identify this character as transexual (Unless you'd bat your eyelids at me over a female "with shaved legs"). Change that one aspect of the character, and apparently the rest is all suddenly fine!

The fact is, both you and SMA have told us many, many times that you are transexual and that you have had issues with this. You talk about being a "passable" female. You point out how many Codexers find you "bangable" - which is funny because there's not a female I know who likes to point out that she's a real female because so many guys find them "bangable" - and SMA is right now, posting about her job struggles as a transexual and asking for critique on her voice as to whether it sounds female. All the males in the world that I know don't tell me how male they are, nor do they ask me if their voices sound male.

You've both made your sexuality / gender (use whatever word you feel is the most appropriate) almost the entire point of your existence here. So yes, you stand out because of that. You are Kaisern, the resident tranny. And you've spawned a hundred memes in your name and references to the Codex include the obligatory reference to the transexuals - because both of you go on about it so much.

In precisely the same way that Cleve has made prophecies of doom his forte, and Andhaira gets held up for just one thread about diplomatic rats, you are identified by your issues with sexuality. Apparently mentioning that or refering to your transexuality is "giving you grief" - and yet you refer to it constantly, and unendingly. You take every opportunity (such as this thread) to remind us that you are a transexual and that you are in fact, a "passable female", even going so far as to point out that your voice "sounds female".

Pointing out how much of a female you are has become an identifiable trait for you. You tell us how much of a passable female you are, and yet by that very act, you re-identify your masculinity. Including posting a nude picture of yourself. Note how none of the men here have ever said "did you know I'm a man because I have a deep voice and can pass as one? But here's a picture of my vagina..."? And none of the females have posted recordings of their voices or nude pictures of themselves in order to "prove" their femininity.

So why do you have such an issue with it then?

Because you can find hundreds of things exactly in this vein going back to Monty Python and SNL for decades. A man in a dress is one of the oldest comedic routines of the modern era that I can think of.

And yet you yourself said that "many trannies are in that misfortunate position".

I didn't raise concern, I expressed relief that I wasn't going to be involved.

You expressed relief that you weren't going to be involved and then very clearly said:

Thankfully, I suspect that Obsidian isn't going to feel comfortable about any inclusion of trannies that deals entirely in stereotypes.​

That right there is implying your concern. You're "thankful" that it's not going to end up in the game. And as I've pointed out, you then went on claim that "If any reference to me(or trannies at large, the exception being if you refer to SMA herself, in which case that is her cause and her decision) is made then I'll be writing a letter to Obsidian stating that I think it's in poor taste."

Yes, you're so "unconcerned" that you'll be writing a letter arguing your case directly with Obsidian in order to have any references removed or not added in the first place.

This is NOT about portraying your general run of the fucking mill tranny in P:E, it's about reference to a Codexian, in a Codexian encounter. Jesus Christ, get that through your thick head and stop arguing about all this other irrelevant shit which you seemingly have no issue with - and yet keep bringing up every fucking time. And you know what, if we choose to represent a transexual who isn't one of the apparently "lucky ones", why is that an issue at all?

It isn't, so long as it's SMA and not a generic tranny.

I'm sorry, I thought you just said you weren't raising any concerns?

My issue with you guys depicted a 'generic tranny' being that I don't think that a group of fat asses who play CRPGs deserve to have a voice for trannies at large because they had a couple of transgendered posters.

If you depict SMA, that's her issue. I *care* about that,

You *care* about that? I'm sorry, I thought you just said you weren't raising any concerns?

Again, why do you take every argument against what you as a person have said and take that as my saying that's how it should be handled in the game? Why are you incapable of seeing that I'm not even arguing about 'the game' at this point, so much as I'm just arguing with you as a human being?

Oh, now you're unconcerned again.

Look, how about you figure out whether you're concerned about references to trannies or not and you let me know.

While you're at it, let me know whether a "male character model in a female's outfit" is a valid representation of a transexual or not, and you let me know.

If your answer is: "I'm not raising any concerns" (as opposed to "I'm going to write a letter!") and "many transexuals are in that unfortunate position" (as opposed to "this is a cliched, unoriginal stererotype which shouldn't be included because it makes transexuals look like clowns!"), then we're done here.

 

[tuluse]

This thread

 

[Kaiserin]

If you're so cool with the original reference, why are you still here arguing against it, calling it a clown-like reference and (at least as I see it) seemingly denigrating everything SMA's done in her life as "cliched"? I'm very sorry SMA's lived an apparently cliched and unoriginal life, but there's not much I can do about it. It is her life after all.

No I'm saying that you selected a rather sensational set of events that you felt depicted her in the most comedic light possible.

And this compares to Cleve who's depicted in a serious manner as a Barbarian with a loin cloth? And Andhaira who's a rat-faced creature?

Cleve's case is truly unique comedy gold. Andhaira's case as well, is very much wrapped up in the specific individual involved.

A lot of people are transsexuals, and a lot of transsexuals have participated in nude photo shoots. I will admit that perhaps my ability to perceive that as novel is influenced by my own situation. However, it just seems to me to be a rehash of jokes that we've all been hearing for years.

Please tell me how that is inaccurate - because that's the real issue here for you, isn't it?

I uh, don't know where you got the idea that my issue had to do with inaccuracy.​

Your first interpretation of just that piece of information was "omg trannies are so darned gross and silly!". You've tried to argue that it's a clown-like interpretation of transgender individuals, cliched, unoriginal and stereotyped while admitting that the interpretation is also valid ("I myself said that many trannies are in that misfortunate position").

Again, it's about focus. It's not that these things are intrinsically gross imo, it's that these things are focused on by society and used as a focal point for ridicule.​

Now this description is either an entirely valid way to portray a transexual character - in which case there would be many other transexuals, other than just SMA, who fit the representation - or it is not. Which is it?

Again, I've just seen it so many times that I don't feel like seeing it again. But hey, the issue here seems to be that it's not only necessary to depict a transsexual, it's important to depict them in a manner which is shocking, you're showing the same sort of preference that I am, just for the other side of the presentation.

Because you've made this, once again, all about you. Right from your very first post.

Right, let's break down that very first post since you seem to have had an issue parsing it:

"Ya know, at first I was butthurt

You said you were butthurt about not being included, so I modified the character to include references to yourself.

Usually when people say, 'at first,' that's an indication that they no longer hold that attitude.

Those changes included adding "Kaiser" (your name),

That's not how I spell my handle.

changing the outfit specifically to a "dress",

How is that directly referential to me again?

Not gonna bother with the other stuff, it's trivial and beside the point I was trying to make, as explained below:

Apparently all this makes the character look "clownish".

Those changes specifically? Not really no, I was just incensed that you decided to involve me in a character design I had just expressed a desire to not be a part of and was speaking out of a generalized sense of anger.

Which is interesting, given it is all based on events that have occured on the Codex in relation to both yourself and SMA.

The thing that seems to have upset you the most is that the character model itself is "male"

Along with the reference to the character sheet, yes.

- because that's all there is to identify this character as transexual (Unless you'd bat your eyelids at me over a female "with shaved legs"). Change that one aspect of the character, and apparently the rest is all suddenly fine!

Actually, yeah.

The fact is, both you and SMA have told us many, many times that you are transexual and that you have had issues with this.

Had issues with what?

You talk about being a "passable" female. You point out how many Codexers find you "bangable" - which is funny because there's not a female I know who likes to point out that she's a real female because so many guys find them "bangable"

This has everything to do with the way that I'm approached and the repeated insistence that I am ugly, conspicuous, and incapable of being 'mistaken' for a female under any circumstances.

Anyway, judging by how you've treated much of what I've said in this conversation, you evidently think that all of this should be included in the game! Why do you think that should be the case?

The stuff about being bangable is a direct reference to the sort of crass polls that were held about me before I was outted. Indeed, much of the language I use here is remarkably more crass than the language I use elsewhere. It's a matter of engaging people on the terms that they engage me on. Every single thing you've mentioned about me is taken out of context, a very important context that frames what I'm saying. If somebody says that I'll never get laid, well then I can point out examples to the contrary. If somebody says that nobody could ever think I was female, well then I can point to the fact that the Codex seemed to be under that impression as a group for a good six months running.

- and SMA is right now, posting about her job struggles as a transexual and asking for critique on her voice as to whether it sounds female. All the males in the world that I know don't tell me how male they are, nor do they ask me if their voices sound male.

So she must not be a male either? Is that what you are saying?

I mean, it's not as if though I'm not saying there are no differences, in outlook, attitude, phenotype, or genotype, between transsexuals and natal women. Indeed, if you have gotten this impression it's entirely because you've ignored almost everything I've ever said on the issue in favor of thinking whatever you wanted to think about my opinion on the matter.

You've both made your sexuality / gender (use whatever word you feel is the most appropriate) almost the entire point of your existence here.

Not true, for the first six months I didn't make a point of it at all. Indeed, I only posted pictures because *other people* made a point of my nickname and what that implied.

So yes, you stand out because of that. You are Kaisern, the resident tranny.

When did I become a legitimate transsexual in your opinion again? I'm not sure what transpired that brought me from 'wannabe' to the real thing.

And you've spawned a hundred memes in your name and references to the Codex include the obligatory reference to the transexuals -

because both of you go on about it so much.

I only ever do so in defense of myself, and if all you can find are 84 results out of *thousands* of posts, that definitely lines up with my assertion that far less than 1% of the content I post here is relevant to that issue.

You take every opportunity (such as this thread) to remind us that you are a transexual and that you are in fact, a "passable female", even going so far as to point out that your voice "sounds female".

Untrue. I've had many more than 84 opportunities, and you can look at the number of threads I've started and notice that well, none of them are about that.

In fact, I think the number of references to me, in this thread and elsewhere, actually makes quite clear how often I make a point of it. SMA is much more immediately evoked in any sort of conversation about trannies than I am. There are ten times the references to her than there are to me, thus again, I am relieved that I seem to be increasingly anonymous on this front.

Pointing out how much of a female you are has become an identifiable trait for you. You tell us how much of a passable female you are, and yet by that very act, you re-identify your masculinity. Including posting a nude picture of yourself. Note how none of the men here have ever said "did you know I'm a man because I have a deep voice and can pass as one? But here's a picture of my vagina..."? And none of the females have posted recordings of their voices or nude pictures of themselves in order to "prove" their femininity.

By this logic, doing these things doesn't affirm my masculinity, as you yourself say that men don't feel a need to do such a thing.

Again though, I've only ever done that in response to *attacks* against my identity.

And yet you yourself said that "many trannies are in that misfortunate position".

So that somehow makes it more creative to use it for the purpose of comedy? I'm not sure how.

Yes, you're so "unconcerned" that you'll be writing a letter arguing your case directly with Obsidian in order to have any references removed or not added in the first place.

I will though, for sure.

I'm sorry, I thought you just said you weren't raising any concerns?

I didn't say I wasn't raising *any* concerns, that I wasn't raising concern regarding your treatment of SMA.

Either way, you're correct in saying that isn't true. I do care about how you're depicting her, I just don't feel it's my place to try and stop you from doing it.

Oh, now you're unconcerned again.

I'm very much concerned with how loathsome of a human being I Think you are.

Look, how about you figure out whether you're concerned about references to trannies or not and you let me know.

I already did, and while you've lured me off into this disorienting maze of nonsense and semantical diddling, my intent was spoken as clearly as possible to begin with, involve me or a generic tranny and I will write a letter.

Don't, and I won't.

While you're at it, let me know whether a "male character model in a female's outfit" is a valid representation of a transexual or not, and you let me know.

Valid in what sense?

 

[Infinitron]

It's a matter of engaging people on the terms that they engage me on. Every single thing you've mentioned about me is taken out of context, a very important context that frames what I'm saying. If somebody says that I'll never get laid, well then I can point out examples to the contrary. If somebody says that nobody could ever think I was female, well then I can point to the fact that the Codex seemed to be under that impression as a group for a good six months running.

Again though, I've only ever done that in response to *attacks* against my identity.

You just don't get it, do you?

There is no rational explanation for posting the things you've posted on this forum. "Engaging people?" What the fuck?! People jerk you around on a forum so you give them voice clips and nudie photos? This is the behavior of a socially clueless, unpopular and insecure teenaged girl, not of an adult.