POLL - Which famous codexers should be in the Project Eternity Codex squad?

[Grunker]

Larping isn't a catch-all term for "I don't like how you play".

Nope, it means "putting something into the game that isn't there." The invention of fantasy mechanics to support whatever you wish to do with the game. For example inventing aesthetic mechanics. I'll give you that you're not so much inventing fantasy mechanics as you are just ignoring the ones actually in the game, but I'd say the difference is extremely small. You're still using the game more as toy (hence the doll-house comparison) than a game. By playing dress-up in Baldur's Gate, you're not playing Baldur's Gate, you're playing your own sillyness. And don't tell me that's demagogic, dress-up is the exact definition of what you're doing.

 

[Clockwork Knight]

If the pink shorts are in the game, and they look like stupid pink shorts, I don't have to invent or pretend anything - I won't wear it because I don't like stupid pink shorts. I'm not sure why this is an issue, or why this makes me like the guy who removes his character's equipment after walking through a river because it's wet and needs to dry.

Also, maybe Baldur's Gate is still perfectly playable if you didn't equip the pink shorts. Like it's still playable if you didn't abuse resting every chance you could, or didn't abuse saving-reloading so companions wouldn't fight each other and leave your party, or used the multiplayer feature to generate your own party of supermen / weaklings because you didn't want to play with the default companions, etc.

 

[Grunker]

If the pink shorts are in the game, and they look like stupid pink shorts, I don't have to invent or pretend anything - I won't wear it because I don't like stupid pink shorts. I'm not sure why this is an issue, or why this makes me like the guy who removes his character's equipment after walking through a river because it's wet and needs to dry.

It's the exact same circumvention of game mechanics, in principle.

It's not an issue for me that you do it, go right ahead. I don't care what the Obliviontards are doing either for that matter. I care when it takes precedence within game design because so many feel that it is an important issue. it's part of the paradigm that aesthetics are more important than mechanics. And it's being reinforced on the Codex, a place to be angry about the tinyest little detail.

To be frank, however, it's not that tiny in the context of the Codex. Directly raging at people who undress before going through a river and then refusing to wear the BAWS HELMET OF ASSDONKERY because it looks like shit is the same basic thing, and that's why I initially stated it was the most depressing thing about the Codex. Because it shows that even the counter-paradigms we're supposed to stand for we're not that great at managing ourselves.

 

[made]

ITT: Grunker ferociously defending his right to wear pink tutus, lulz

 

[Clockwork Knight]

It's the exact same circumvention of game mechanics, in principle.

No! I'm not circumventing anything, I'm just not equipping the pink shorts because I don't want to. I'm not forced to equip everything that comes my way. Where does it say that not wearing something if I don't want to is the WRONG WAY TO PLAY ?

It's not an issue for me that you do it, go right ahead. I don't care what the Obliviontards are doing either for that matter. I care when it takes precedence within game design because so many feel that it is an important issue. it's part of the paradigm that aesthetics are more important than mechanics. And it's being reinforced on the Codex, a place to be angry about the tinyest little detail.

To be frank, however, it's not that tiny in the context of the Codex. Directly raging at people who undress before going through a river and then refusing to wear the BAWS HELMET OF ASSDONKERY because it looks like shit is the same basic thing, and that's why I initially stated it was the most depressing thing about the Codex. Because it shows that even the counter-paradigms we're supposed to stand for we're not that great at managing ourselves.

So what you're saying is that if I modded in anime characters for PST, you'd be playing it unfazed because you'd be a faggot larper if you cared that TNO looked like this?

ITT: Grunker ferociously defending his right to wear pink tutus, lulz

Warriors of Diversity, indeed

 

[Grunker]

if I modded in

how is this even remotely relevant

As for the point hidden within your horrible example: I never said pink helmets wasn't shitty art design (see your fugly as hell Orc). I've even said many times (even hinted to it here) that larping can be necessary in some games because of shitty game design (i.e. not abusing balance issues, not kiting). But that don't stop it from being larping, honey.

No! I'm not circumventing anything, I'm just not equipping the pink shorts because I don't want to. I'm not forced to equip everything that comes my way.

Ignoring game mechanics or inventing game mechanics is pretty much the same fucking thing, bro. I already gave you earlier that it's not larping in the strictest sense of the word, since you're not inventing, but rather dismantling, but the essence is the same. You're not playing the game, you're making your own pseudo-game where the thing that actually has bearing on the game (+5!) is less important to you than something you perceive yourself (ugh, they're pink!).

 

[Shannow]

ITT, made and CK coming up with ridiculous assumptions to make their love of playing with dolls seem less un-manly.

Actual situations that come up in non-shitty games (ie. WoW does not count):
Do I wear the black +2 plate armour or the red +3 plate armour?
Non-LARPER: Red. It has better stats.
LARPER: Red is gay, I'll stay with the black armour. It fits better with the grimdark backstory I wrote for my char.

 

[Haba]

Hey Grunker, have you heard of this roleplaying thing? I heard it had something to do with having a role and then trying to play it. It was somehow different from operating spreadsheets.

The last I heard, this was RPG Codex.

Refusing to wear a bucket for helmet 'cuz it looks like shit is a self imposed challenge no different from trying to run an atheist vegan hippie build in Nethack. Guys who just min-max everying are less of roleplayers than the larpers who spend their time worrying about the virtual relationships of their made up characters.

Next up, you're sent to the ovens for playing the game in a different way because you like it, even if it isn't the most effective way. Fun is verboten! Sieg mondblut! Sieg kaiser CSV!

GAMES ARE NOT TOYS! GAMES ARE SERIOUS BUSINESS! NO HOMO!

 

[Clockwork Knight]

if I modded in

how is this even remotely relevant

Because the game mechanics would still be the same, it would just an aesthetics change where I make TNO look pretty. Logically, it shouldn't bother you because aesthetics don't matter in the slightest, right?

Better, pretend there's an item in the game that makes TNO look like that, but gives him stat bonuses. Would you be a faggot larper if you refused to use it?

Ignoring game mechanics or inventing game mechanics is pretty much the same fucking thing, bro. I already gave you earlier that it's not larping in the strictest sense of the word, since you're not inventing, but rather dismantling, but the essence is the same. You're not playing the game, you're making your own pseudo-game where the thing that actually has bearing on the game (+5!) is less important to you than something you perceive yourself (ugh, they're pink!).

I'm not ignoring the mechanics, I'm aware that the pink shorts would give me +5. I just don't want to use it. I'm aware that diplomat sniper is the WINNAR character in Fallout, am I making up my own pseudo-game if I don't play as one because I don't like it?

Again, you're saying that your way of playing the game is the only way, and anyone who refuses to wear the pink shorts is (kind of) larping.

 

[Grunker]

I heard it had something to do with having a role and then trying to play it.

If that was the point of an RPG, good RPGs should support that with mechanics. They don't so fuck you. The only way you can have a role and play it in most of the RPGs I know of is larping - inventing everything yourself. If that's what you want to do, Oblivion is a great game.

I would fucking love to roleplay in an RPG, and I do it whenever I get the chance. The sad story is though, most RPGs don't support it outside of my own sick imagination, and then I might as well play Pen & Paper.

In this, Mondblut is right. Until the computer actually cares about your Paladin-do-nothing-evil bullshit, why should you?

Logically, it shouldn't bother you because aesthetics don't matter in the slightest, right?

Wow, CK, I expected better of you. You seriously claim this one post below a post in which I directly state "I never said pink helmets weren't shitty art design."?

I have never claimed aesthetics don't matter. I've stated mechanics matter way, way more. Your example is horrendous, extreme and stupid. Why would I install that mod to being with? Why would any dev ever do such a fucked up thing, and if they did, we would call it what it was: SHIT (like, indeed, we've done many times on these forums with WoW gear design).

I'm aware that diplomat sniper is the WINNAR character in Fallout, am I making up my own pseudo-game if I don't play as one because I don't like it?

There is a major difference between trying different builds for playing purposes and not using something because it hurts your frail perception of beauty in a fucking RPG.

you're saying that your way of playing the game is the only way

A game is made up by its mechanics, everything else is essentially sprinkles. If you do something outside of the game's mechanics, you are not playing the game. This concept is pretty basic. And before you say "playing the game is doing anything the game allows you to hurr":

I'm not playing Battleships if I sow string into the ships and wear them as a necklace.

 

[made]

Do I wear the black +2 plate armour or the red +3 plate armour?
Non-LARPER: Red. It has better stats.
LARPER: Red is gay, I'll stay with the black armour. It fits better with the grimdark backstory I wrote for my char.

Sane person: Do I need the advantage the new armor gives me to overcome the challenges ahead? a) No, game's piss easy anyway so who cares about another +1 bonus, might as well wear whatever suits me best. b) Hell yes, this red armor protects against dragon fire, better put that on for the upcoming dragon dungeon or fail miserably.

^is the normal thought process I would wager

 

[skuphundaku]

Hey Grunker, have you heard of this roleplaying thing? I heard it had something to do with having a role and then trying to play it. It was somehow different from operating spreadsheets.

The last I heard, this was RPG Codex.

Refusing to wear a bucket for helmet 'cuz it looks like shit is a self imposed challenge no different from trying to run an atheist vegan hippie build in Nethack. Guys who just min-max everying are less of roleplayers than the larpers who spend their time worrying about the virtual relationships of their made up characters.

Next up, you're sent to the ovens for playing the game in a different way because you like it, even if it isn't the most effective way. Fun is verboten! Sieg mondblut! Sieg kaiser CSV!

GAMES ARE NOT TOYS! GAMES ARE SERIOUS BUSINESS! NO HOMO!

You're just a few steps away from a hiver-like breakdown. Keep it up because hiver's breakdown was hilarious and I want an encore.

 

[Clockwork Knight]

I have never claimed aesthetics don't matter. I've stated mechanics matter way, way more.

No, you're saying that mechanics are so much more important, they are the only thing that really matters. If I should look like a retard even though I don't like looking like a retard and I could choose not to look like a retard, then aesthetics don't matter one bit. You said it yourself:

A game is made up by its mechanics, everything else is essentially sprinkles. If you do something outside of the game's mechanics, you are not playing the game

In other words, you will wear that fucking pink tutu, because it gives you +5 Dex. If you don't, you're a larping faggot.

Your example is horrendous, extreme and stupid. Why would I install that mod to being with? Why would any dev ever do such a fucked up thing, and if they did, we would call it what it was: SHIT (like, indeed, we've done many times on these forums with WoW gear design).

The example is extreme to better demonstrate my point - if it looks like shit and I don't need to use it to finish the game, why should I?

There is a major difference between trying different builds for playing purposes and not using something because it hurts your frail perception of beauty in a fucking RPG.

No, by your logic it's the same - I'm not making the optimal choice based on the game mechanics, therefore I'm larping.

A game is made up by its mechanics, everything else is essentially sprinkles. If you do something outside of the game's mechanics, you are not playing the game. This concept is pretty basic. And before you say "playing the game is doing anything the game allows you to hurr":

The game allows me to choose what I'll equip, so I choose what I'll equip. Hurr?

And again, choosing not to use something when given the choice =!= doing something outside of the game's mechanics.

I'm not playing Battleships if I sow string into the ships and wear them as a necklace.

No, but you're still playing Battleships even if you're just picking the spaces based on gut feeling instead of using a spreadsheet to determine the most logical enemy ship placements to maximize your chances of victory because that's how TRU3 1337 B4TTL3SH1P5 PL4Y3RZ D0 1T

 

[CappenVarra]

Yay, it's been a while since we had a "you're all fucking LARPer faggots" thread! A great opportunity for personality testing In the interests of science, please mark each entry below with either "LARPing" or "Not LARPing":
- Equipping Plate +2 and selling Plate +3 because the latter is fugly
- Equipping Plate +2 and selling Plate +3 because the latter sells for much more and you can use the gold
- Not taking Plate +3 because it's an Evil act and lowers your reputation by 1, which can be fixed in any temple by spending 0,13% of your character wealth
- Equipping Chain +2 and selling Plate +1 (which has better AC) because you want to finish the game wearing only Chain armor
- Equipping Chain +2 and selling Plate +1 (which has better AC) because the character has mediocre strength and Chain is 50% lighter
- Creating an AD&D character that has 17 DEX instead of 18 (without raising any other stat) because that's the character you want to play
- Creating an AD&D character that has 17 DEX because that was the first roll you got, even if you could raise it to 18 after lowering INT by 1 with no mechanical penalty whatsoever
- Choosing a character race that reminds you of this novel you read, even if it has a DEX/AC penalty and the corresponding advantage is bugged in the game and doesn't actually work as it should
- Not taking the Dodge feat that gives +1 AC, because Power Attack suits the character concept better
- Not taking the Dodge feat that gives +1 AC, because Power Attack results in a more effective character (since the game favors offense over defense)
- Taking Dodge despite Power Attack resulting in a more effective character (since the game favors offense over defense), under any circumstance whatsoever
- Not savescumming at a random outcome that has 10% chance of raising your character's AC by one
- Savescumming at a random outcome that has 10% chance of lowering your character's AC by one

 

[DarkUnderlord]

Hey guys, I want to discuss the NPC party we're supposedly trying to get into Project: Eternity. Where's the thread for that? Does anyone know? I thought it was this one but this seems to be something about the definition of LARPing.

 

[Turisas]

Hey guys, I want to discuss the NPC party we're supposedly trying to get into Project: Eternity. Where's the thread for that? Does anyone know? I thought it was this one but this seems to be something about the definition of LARPing.

I thought you had eldritch powers to transform any thread into your liking.

 

[Grunker]

No, you're saying [...] they are the only thing that really matters.

No, I'm not. If we're at that point in the debate, then perhaps we should defer to the Proper Debate Police that seems to have arrived to our discussion and stop this sillyness. I find it fun, however.

A game is made up by its mechanics, everything else is essentially sprinkles. If you do something outside of the game's mechanics, you are not playing the game

In other words, you will wear that fucking pink tutu, because it gives you +5 Dex. If you don't, you're a larping faggot.

News flash: Something that matters more than something else does not cause that something else to not matter. It causes it to matter less.

Thick skulled is you.

The example is extreme to better demonstrate my point - if it looks like shit and I don't need to use it to finish the game, why should I?

Why use anything then? Why at all think about the customization of your character or try to accomplish anything with the game's mechanics? Why not just go with the flow until it becomes too hard to complete, and then from there begin to actually try to grasp the game's mechanics?

The "game" part of an RPG comes from mastering the character and combat-system. An increasing amount has become seeing how pretty that Helmet +2 looks, but this is a bad evolution away from customization and mechanics and into bullshit-land.

Continuation of the paradigm that visuals matter more than gameplay is exactly the kind of thing you're doing when you're saying "I won't wear good shit if I look ridiculous." You're basically telling the dev to think hard and long about how stuff looks because for you it takes precedence over their mechanics. So if they want you to consider their mechanics, they better have the visuals in place.

You say to me I claim visuals don't matter at all. By that logic you're claiming that mechanics don't matter at all. It's bullshit and neither are true. What I'm saying is that mechanics and gameplay should preceed the fucking visuals in an RPG, it's what we're there for. If you are actually more devoted to how the abstract avatar of your character looks - something without any practical impact on ANYTHING in the game - then you are part of the problem. Not because I give a fuck about how you play the game, but because this attitude of Visuals Before Gameplay is bound to be mirrored in your discussions on the topic of RPGs and your evalutation of games and ideas for games.

To state it clearly: You (and by you I mean the CK and the Codexers on his side) are supposed to be one of the bros, one of the good guys fighting for RPGs to go back to complex customization, character and combat systems. At the same time you're saying "for me, the look of a helmet is more important to me than its statistics."

How the fuck are we supposed to convince anyone that we're interested in depth when apparantly we care more about what colour our pants are?

There is a major difference between trying different builds for playing purposes and not using something because it hurts your frail perception of beauty in a fucking RPG.

No, by your logic it's the same - I'm not making the optimal choice based on the game mechanics, therefore I'm larping.

Come on CK, you're not daft, and if you want to troll me you can do better. Trying different builds is playing with the game's mechanics. Throwing away a better chestplate is playing dress-up. How the fuck is this hard to understand?

No, but you're still playing Battleships even if you're just picking the spaces based on gut feeling instead of using a spreadsheet to determine the most logical enemy ship placements to maximize your chances of victory because that's how TRU3 1337 B4TTL3SH1P5 PL4Y3RZ D0 1T

What you're accusing me of saying here is OPTIMIZE VIA SPREADSHEET AND CALCULUS ANYTHING ELSE IS LARPING.

What I am actually saying is deliberately ignoring something purely because of aesthetics is fucking stupid.

Take your example from earlier with trying different builds:

Trying different builds: Self-imposing challenges, trying to see how well something works, playing around with the game's mechanics.

Throwing away a hat because it's ugly: Pure, self-imposed idiocy the game does not care about or reacts to.

You see the fucking difference now or will we return to the strawman of "BUT YOU'RE SAYING VISUALS DON'T MATTER AND SPREADSHEETS ARE KING LOOOOOOOOOL"?

 

[Grunker]

Yay, it's been a while since we had a "you're all fucking LARPer faggots"

I'm a pretty nice guy who regularly talks pretty nice to people. When I argue, I try to argue points instead of people, unless I'm mostly in it for the fun. I'm also quite easily trolled!

In other words: fuck you.

If you want to contribute something to the discussion, go right ahead. I genuinely believe this is somewhat of an achilles-heel for the Codex, and it has nothing to do with me calling you LARPer faggots, however many retarded hypothetical situations that allows you to put up in a strawman-attempt to prove a wrong point (hint: most of your situations are game mechanic related, not related to aesthetics).

 

[Grunker]

Hey guys, I want to discuss the NPC party we're supposedly trying to get into Project: Eternity. Where's the thread for that? Does anyone know? I thought it was this one but this seems to be something about the definition of LARPing.

Off-topiness is one of the joys of your domain, my lord. You're welcome to split up the threads, but when CK answers my point, I shall answer his. It is the inevitable spiral of dumbfuckery that this place instills in me.

 

[CappenVarra]

(hint: most of your situations are game mechanic related, not related to aesthetics).

But aren't game mechanics also an expression of a transcendent higher aesthetic? How can a game express and embody the infinite purity of proper RPG essences, while giving them visual forms that an evolved (and dare I say, prestigious) individual finds distasteful and offensive to his refined eye? Can we really dismiss the ponderous question of art direction so easily?

Spoiler

In following the teachings of Lyric Suite, I'm just messing with you bro.

If the problem are the unwashed masses of pleebs that are more concerned with color matching their equipment than learning the game mechanics, why does the game let them do so? If the game focuses on making those RPG mechanics work as they should, wouldn't it repel those unwashed masses just by making them fail until they ragequit or learn the mechanics to progress? And if it does so, what does it matter how somebody who understands them decides to play? So playing a party of D&D characters with low stats is a valid self-imposed challenge, and so is playing a party of dwarves because it's Volourn Appreciation Month; completing the game with a party of rogues is an accomplishment and an expression of the player's mastery of the game - but completing the game with a party of characters with color-matched equipment is badwrongfun and must be killed with fire? If anything, the game should be challenging enough that every +1 makes a visible difference, and unwashed pleebs can only complete it by min-maxing like peasants struggling to buy enough potato not to starve and wearing "whatever gives the most pluses" (as I believe the original idea was), while prestigious gentlemen wrestle bears with one hand tied behind the back and look good all the while. What does it matter if a man does something, if he doesn't do it with style? And what kind of aspie neckbeard would dare post the stats of his party in public if each of them doesn't have at least 15 CHA, nyah?

Spoiler

EDIT: and DU, this is relevant to the thread because we're establishing that a character with munchkin gear that looks really ugly when equipped is both an acceptable codexian archetype on several levels and will suitably troll aestheticsfags. You can even make that guy the Disco Inferno of NPCs!

 

[Kaiserin]

No shit Sherlock, THUS MY COMMENT ON A SENSE OF RELIEF OVER MY EXCLUSION!

Kaiser Sarah von Arts: The Kaiser's NPC model and character sheet clearly identify her as a male,

You seem to have entirely misunderstood, yet again. I'm beginning to think that you have some sort of serious cognitive deficit. I just explicitly said that I am RELIEVED that you are not including me in this nonsense.

I don't want anything to do with anything involving the codex that makes me the butt end of yet another tasteless and utterly derivative joke. If you wish to include a reference to SMA in the game and she voices no complaint over that, well then that's her business. On the other hand, if you make any reference to my person, I'll be going well out of my way to make sure that doesn't make it into the game.

Yes. If you self-identify as a female, what are you doing in the men's room?

I find this very confusing.

It's only confusing if you think that everything I say is absolutely 100% literal and that I'm somehow incapable of anything like being facetious or sarcastic in spite of thousands of examples of my having been just that on these forums. You know, kind of like I toss around the word fag with aplomb, or did you really mistake that for genuine homophobia too? I mean really, where the hell did you ever get the idea that I had autism?

 

[Infinitron]

I this thread.

 

[Quetzacoatl]

I this thread.

You're post count has really shot up Infinitron. The last time I looked at it the count was around 900. Now its 6,445.

 

[Infinitron]

You're post count has really shot up Infinitron. The last time I looked at it the count was around 900. Now its 6,445.

Long, boring summer. Too bad it can't last. Following this Kickstarter has also been particularly post-intensive.

 

[Clockwork Knight]

Off-topiness is one of the joys of your domain, my lord. You're welcome to split up the threads, but when CK answers my point, I shall answer his. It is the inevitable spiral of dumbfuckery that this place instills in me.

Actually I can see we're both tired of this argument and neither of us will budge, so there's not much reason to continue. Plus, DU is very upset about the original subject of this thread and I don't feel like tempting fate.