Rendering her(or any tranny for that matter) as a man in a dress with shaven legs otoh, is.
Heh. Tell me, just what is bothering you here?
That people think trannies are icky? That the Codex regards trannies as a kind of perverse blackface-like mascot for the site? Or, do you just not want to be portrayed as (gasp) sexually unattractive?
All three, but particularly the second one.
As for the third one, well yeah I think that is indicative of exactly how you are stereotyping me. There's this assumption that I demand that people find me sexually attractive, however implicit, and that's really frustrating. If I were to render a transsexual in a work of fiction, I would do so in a very realistic manner, that is to say I would make her(in the case of an MtF) appear very non-descript and probably quite plain looking. I'm not living in some sort of an alternate reality where I think we are all super models. I'm just thoroughly put out that people insist on only representing us in the very most vulnerable ways imaginable.
I'm reminded of Sailer's Law of Female Journalism:
The most heartfelt articles by female journalists tend to be demands that social values be overturned in order that, Come the Revolution, the journalist herself will be considered hotter-looking.
Yeah, I totally represent anarchy and free spirited behavior, if by that you mean utterly self-indulgent, deluded, sex crazed, and starved for attention that's definitely how the Codex views us. I tend to more think that it's a group of people entitled by their own sense of anonymity who are taking time to point and laugh at people they most often label as 'mentally ill'(not my own words) though.
For even more glorious butthurt, DU could make so that only the actual backers have a vote on the final party.
I would have thought that you would have a little more compassion from where I'm coming from. Or do you hope to be included as a limp wristed lisping guy in a short shorts who talks about his adventures in glory holes?
Hmm, you know I don't really think that's a fair assessment of what I've done here. Just check my posting history, hell check ALL of the threads that I've ever started, and the number of them that are about trannies, should you find any at all, is less than 1%. I am not sure at all how I 'flaunted the topic' when it wasn't even myself who made mention of my own gender identity to begin with, but the workings of people who became obsessed with me and investigated details about my life.
Yeah, that was the point I was trying to have. Trannytalk is very small part of the posts of a handful of posters who to my mind would not stand out as posters (when it comes to RPGs) if not for that one meaningless detail.
In that sense, a school yard bully who tries to get a rise out of someone who is different (or in the case of Prosper, mentally ill) would be much more descriptive character of a "Codexian" party than a tranny.
I appreciate you coming out and recognizing that. This post is overwhelmingly encouraging and makes me reconsider my butthurt altogether.
No. But this is the challenge transgender individuals have to deal with on a daily basis. It's interesting that your argument is almost entirely based around how players will perceive the individual in question - rather than on the actual individual themselves.
I don't see why it's all that interesting that I'm sensitive to sensational depictions of a highly ridiculed group. Obviously, all of the difference is made in how people view these things. After all, if everybody just loved trannies just for being trannies then we wouldn't be having this discussion in the first place. Social attitudes are of paramount importance when the topic being approached is how a group is depicted in any media.
Once again, there seems to be what I wrote, and how you've chosen to interpret that. You seem to have developed your own assumptions and conclusions and gone off the deep end.
One more time, here's what I
actually wrote:
* Lady Sarah McArts - Sarah's NPC model and character sheet clearly identify her as a male, but she is wearing a female's outfit - and has shaved legs. She speaks with a Scottish accent and will tell you that she has "done some nude modelling", the pictures of which appeared on page 25 of "Warrior's Monthly - A magazine for men with unique tastes". She is the group's bowman (erm... bow-woman) and carries a bow.
From that, you've apparently concluded that I think you're autistic ("
where the hell did you ever get the idea that I had autism?"), a clown, and now: Where do I convey that she's done nude modelling out of "desperation"? Her reasons for modelling are not mentioned
at all in the original. And in the follow-up variation where I mixed in you, I in fact said
the exact opposite: "it was her desire to pursue her career as a professional model". It was this career
choice and a disagreement with her partner that lead to her leaving her home town. Not "she needed the bucks".
If this comment had come out of a vacuum, and I hadn't encountered the sorts of comments around here that I have over the past 4 years, then I wouldn't be reacting nearly so strongly. Taken out of context, I will readily agree that what you said is more or less harmless, however, when it's placed into the context of the circumstances under which SMA modeled in real life, the sort of treatment it got here, and prevailing attitudes toward transgender people and their participation in the sex industry, it becomes a tremendous cliche.
Again though, why do you care what I think of your treatment of SMA? I've already stated explicitly that I won't move to interfere with anything you do regarding her image. That's her business, and really all I'm giving is my opinion of it. So I'm failing to see why you are bothering to get so verbose about this, as I can't see where you have any stake in it, and I certainly am not of the impression that you care anything about my 'feelings' or anything like that.
Oh please, I could say the same about Cleve. He's an intelligent man (who's even building his own bunker) who's been involved in the development of a number of highly acclaimed games, even going back to the days when he used to send in code to computer magazines that were (for the time) widely published.
We've reduced him to a stupid barbarian wearing a loin-cloth, with metal bones - who's carrying a doll.
Yet you've taken the things that he wanted to be known about himself and put them out there. He himself spread the baby meme, he himself claimed to have titanium bones, and he himself claims to be of tremendous mass. As for the simple nature of his character, well that's so detached from the reality of it that it's an obvious joke. On the other hand, I'm not sure that everybody here takes it for granted that SMA isn't a man in a dress, or that even so much as half of you view her as anything other than that.
To be honest, I could add in that whenever you speak to this character, she interprets what you say in the most obscenely offensive way possibly and will accuse you of calling her things you never said.
You know, the thing is that you can *imply* things without saying them, and I think that you yourself happen to be very good at it. In fact, it seems to be a skill that you've honed to an art, and it's very common amongst human beings at large. I could call you retarded without actually coming out and using the word 'retard.'(e.g.) I have to wonder if you are capable of grasping what I am putting forward here, or if that's simply too much for you to deal with.
A male who identifies as female, yes. It's kind of like how SMA has a cock (see Retardo Land, pictures page 25).
Sex and gender, yet again.
Now you may wish to think you don't have a cock, or an Adam's apple, or a male-sounding voice or a male's physical build, but you do.
Oh really? I have a male sounding voice and a heavy build? Nobody I encounter on the street seems to think so, or here on the Codex while they were busy fapping and fawning over me for that matter. Just like there were all those polls where 95% of you voted me imminently bangable. I don't think you're openly gay or anything, so I kinda just have to take that as it is.
I would pull out those polls, but I can't use search function. Suffice to say, I recall sheek made one and Dark Individual made the other.
Indeed I've posted my voice here on the codex before and it was not at all male sounding, why let's have a listen shall we:
http://tinypic.com/usermedia.php?uo=MSazeq4CIlOoGAYCw4mPh4h4l5k2TGxc
In the thread where this was originally posted, a few people even ventured to say that people were desperately attempting to troll, and
http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/index.php?threads/your-accent-in-english.34430/page-4
Would you prefer it if it was a female character model with a description that says "You see a large butch of a female with a prominent adam's apple and a heavy male build. She speaks with a deep, male sounding voice..."
Again, not all transsexuals fit the description that you are giving, you're just assuming they do:
So these assessments of your own about transpeople, and particularly myself, are not based on any personal observation, but merely assumptions that you have made based on stereotypes. Not to say that there are not a very significant portion of us who have the misfortune of not appeared as the gender they feel they are, but to level these comments at myself , or trannies at large, is ridiculous.
Only if you ignore the modelling (modelling isn't a specific transgender thing - just in case you're unaware),
I tell you what, I will cut out comments like this and make an attempt to stop being a belligerent asshole if you will do the same? Honestly, I would like to communicate on a serious level here without just spewing bile. I confess that I reacted strongly to start but my anger has largely subsided and I would like to voice things as clearly as possible from this point onward.
In fact the other characters have less information. Saint is "a guy who carries a hammer". You've picked on one aspect of her character. Mind you, it is a pretty fundamentally important aspect of her character. As I said, this is something that people struggle with everyday.
It's more about why she's being selected to appear at all that concerns me with regard to this very specific part of the argument.
If you represent this character as a female model, then at what point do you tell them they used to be transgender?
As I stated in the previous post, a lootable letter or photo would be a marvelous way to convey the point imo. It would also lend more room for actually depicting the nuances of how those around her feel, and allow her to be depicted in a manner that wasn't like every other depiction of transwomen I can think of.
It's certainly not something the character would mention herself because the whole point is that she's not transgender, she is - or is at least trying to be - female. I don't know of a transgender individual who says "I'm transgender" the first time you meet them (or in fact, at any point during your time talking to them - even if you know them for several years. The only ones who seem to mention it constantly are those on the internet).
Well, you probably don't have much experience with transgender people then. As in my having had quite in depth conversations with dozens upon dozens and friendships with a few, I've only encountered two in my entire life who lived in such a way that they didn't inform others they were transgendered at some point in knowing them.
It's something you pick up from the Adam's apple and male features (or alternatively, the female features and higher pitched voice), or
the pictures they post
of themselves.
Again, you have this assumption that people are automatically able to notice. In my context, you just entirely revise history altogether, as it wasn't the content of the pictures that gave me away, it was the CONTEXT in which they were sitting. Indeed, nobody here knew I was a tranny simply by looking at me, or if they did nobody seemed to SAY that, instead I refer you again to the polls where people voted me bangable:
So your preference, after arguing that "her whole character is just about being transgender" - even though this character would not mention it in conversation at all - is to encounter this character and have her launch into a tirade about how it feels to be transgender and how it influences her life... And you're accusing me of being the one creating caricatures?
Who is the one making assumptions now? I provided a solution and it didn't involve that at all. Honestly, I don't think that a one-shot encounter is the place to explore the transsexuality of a person at all, but if it was I would say that a lootable item would be the best way to pull it off. Hell, perhaps a belt of male/female even.
Yes, because this character isn't where she wants to be yet. Or are you saying that only fully transistioned individuals should be represented?
I'm saying that there are a wealth of transitioning characters who are represented in media, typically in an unflattering manner, exactly as you are proposing it happen. I didn't say it shouldn't happen, I said that I want no part of it and that I think it's unoriginal and derivative. Notice how I am remaining pretty much entirely consistent here?
But this isn't an issue with the character, this is an issue with the viewer.
Those things aren't connected? Because I definitely think that the way that you design a character is going to steer people toward certain conclusions. I can provide examples if you wish, but I think if you think about it honestly you'll find a few things come to mind rather quick.
Well, from what you've just said, apparently the only other alternative is to encounter a female character who tells you all about her struggle as a transgender individual. Is this a conversation you have with people you've just met? "Hi, I'm transgender. This is something I've struggled with all my life..."
Not at all. I'll repeat it every single time you say otherwise, a lootable item would be much more effective and subtle.
Like I said, "character model identifies her as female" (think sex) but she clearly identifies as female (think gender). Both sex and gender are being represented. Mind you, in the rest of the world, "sex" and "gender" are interchangeable terms that mean the same thing.
Wait, didn't you just spend several lines diminishing the importance of what the audience thought? The two things are distinct in an academic sense that isn't limited to simply discussing transsexuality(it's brought up in a number of social science disciplines), and that was what I was referring to. If you are going to dismiss anything that I have to say about what how others will interpret it, why do you then use that same basis to discredit my distinction between sex and gender?
Right. So...
You encounter Lady Sarah McArts: "Let's talk about *gender,* not *sex*. From that angle it's possible that somebody *is* what they are 'trying to be.' While somebody's biological birth sex is immutable, how they are perceived by society can and does change, and while these two things do not always line up, the fact that they don't line up for some people is not essential to the struggle of all transgender people. There are transgender people who effectively function within society as the gender they present, not the gender they transitioned from."
This obviously isn't the context that I put this in, and you kind of just forced it somewhere for the purpose of making an appeal to ridicule. I suspect that you know that I wasn't suggesting the character say that, so much as I was attempting to make clear to you that some transgender people actually do manage to live in the gender role of their choosing and rather than people around them challenging it or tolerating it, actually reinforce it without even being aware of doing so.
Again, the alternative is you encounter a female character who is female - and you never, ever learn that she was ever male. The issue of transgenderism is never raised, everyone thinks it's a female and you get the absurd situation where someone then later claims "they were really transvestite warrior males!". Which also completely destroys the point of making the reference in the first place. It'd be like encountering a character called "Bob" and saying "That was actually Saint Proverbius!"
Nope, the alternative that I provided was a lootable item, being either a letter, photo, or gender changing magical item.
Yep - and the problem is that's entirely what I want to convery with this character. You want to ignore it, sweep it under the carpet and pretend it doesn't exist. You don't want to look at the elephant in the room because it's too personal.
I don't want to sweep it under the carpet and pretend it doesn't exist. I just don't feel that we need yet another example of that sitting out there being so 'in yo face.' Are you really not understanding me on this? Or are you being disingenuous and trying to have a go at me?
Hedwig and the Angry Inch covered that base over a decade ago, everybody knows about it. Everybody has heard that song Lola by the Kinks, and Dude Looks Like a Lady, everybody is familiar with what drag queens look like, the most visible segment of the transgender population is exactly the portion that you want to put forward into this game. From my perspective, you are the one who is reinforcing the anonymity and invisibility of passable transgender people who get along without friction.
Both SMA and yourself have made your persona's here on the Codex very firmly around your gender issues.
Again, I attempted to escape the reputation more than once. I didn't broach it to begin with, other people who were crushing on me played investigator with my business, and I even switched names to avoid it.
I haven't made any threads broaching the topic, though yes I've admittedly reacted explosively after months upon months of ridicule and baiting. Yes, that was my fault for being young and stupid, I'm not blaming you guys but I just don't see how you can interpret that as me making a point of the fact that I am a tranny in every single post, when really the fact of the matter is that I've tried to dodge it and diminish it as much as possible.
Any reference to either of you HAS to include such references.
What makes us worth referencing at all then?
Hell, if I'd posted naked pictures of myself and kept talking about my cock all the time, then any representation of me in-game would be expected to include references to that.
I did that one time after Knightrider came into
every single thread that I posted in, for
months mind you, ranting about how I will never have children and how I am a sad pathetic eunuch drug addict blah blah blah blah blah.
One time, and how many other things have I said here? How much of my total posting does that actually comprise?
Again, less than 1%.
But hey, you know I feel like as bad on me as that was, it's like somebody just goaded somebody who was volatile until they exploded, and then like sharks you guys are going to circle around making a fool out of me forever about it. I sincerely wish I had never done that to be honest, it's honestly something I regret very deeply because of how it's affected the way that people view me. Which, yeah I do care quite a bit about that in spite of my rather facile attempts to feign indifference.
Blah blah, emo garbage, but I'm serious. If I could take it back I would, and it makes me sad that this is what's been put at the forefront of 'who I am' with regard to my posting here. If I could just wipe the slate clean and post anonymously, I would, but I've tried and failed, and not because I spend too much time talking about my cock and trannies for goodness sake.
Just as Cleve is referenced by his prophecies and metal bones, just as Andhaira is referenced by Rat Diplomacy.
There is some fairness to this, I just have to concede it. Then again, I wasn't asking that you not depict a transgender person. I was asking that you not depict a transgender person in what I view as a cliche and trite manner that's been done to death.
This does not happen on any other internet forum I've ever been a member of. So when including an appropriately Codexian reference in a computer game, with a party that represents the Codex, I think it's fair to include someone who's struggling with their gender. In much the same way it would be fair to include a troll, and Cleve. As you said, you've made "a buffoon of yourself". Not including it would be ignoring Codexian history.
At this point, I will admit in a bald faced manner that I don't really care about 'Codexian history.' While there are some individuals here that I hang around to pay attention to, for reasons that are mysterious to myself, I'm rather sickened by the culture of this place when it really comes down to it. I feel like it's a microcosm of every sort of 'oh no you didn't type of behavior that is turning people into cynical callous assholes who are looking for their next fix of sensationalism.
So as ashamed as I am of what I did, and as personally responsible as I feel for it(because really it was my own ignorance, youth, and personality flaws that led to me allowing myself to be so god damned incensed to begin with), it was years ago and yeah I would like to put it behind me. I am going to attempt to silence it on that basis, because I don't have any respect for a culture that I sincerely don't feel has any respect for me. But again, you don't have to put me in the game, so I don't know why you even care to argue this out with me. You can find a way to slip your snide and dehumanizing japes without further dragging me through the dirt any further.
As for you personally, referring to me as a 'resident transgender wannabe' to MCA in addendum to my request was pretty much proof positive that the issue runs deeper than just friendly ribbing. I paid real money and you took liberty with my request in a way that you didn't with anyone else's save denizsi, and for similar reasons of finding their gender suspect no less. Given that track record, it's very hard to believe that you have an interest in anything other than milking me, or anyone in my position for that matter, for laughs at any expense.