Portraits?

[Shagnak]

The portraits are fine. Go with it.

 

[Lumpy]

I'm not crazy about the first two character portraits. Neither is bad, but they both seem more amateurish than professional. Each seems flat compared to the third portrait you posted.

As opposed to the rest of the game?
Also, could everyone stop posting shitty alternatives? Because they're, uh, shitty.

 

[Lomer]

I think that the portraits are decent. That being said, I don’t believe that portraits or concept art should be discussed with the community in the manner you’re discussing the gameplay mechanics. Although most of the members of these fora have some general idea what they want from an RPG, very few of us are competent enough to judge the artistic quality of the pictures. You realize that some people didn’t like Arcanum portraits or Jason Manley’s work for instance, right?

I agree with Roqua that it is not a good idea to criticize so strongly the work of a potential member of your team, as it may be quite discouraging both for him and any other artists willing to contribute.

Sometimes the concept artists post their work for preliminary discussions with their colleagues on boards such as http://www.conceptart.org/forums , so you may ask your proposed artist to look for advice there. Please note that the discussions there are much “softer” and constructive compared to the feedback you received on the Codex’s boards.

 

[galsiah]

...to judge the artistic quality of the pictures...

The "artistic quality" isn't relevant here - and few people are commenting on that. In terms of quality, I don't see anything wrong with the portraits. My issue is with what they're saying, not how they're saying it.
What's important is the impression/information the portraits convey. You don't need to be an art critic to judge that. The skill would be in pointing out specifically how to improve them. I can't do that, so I simply suggest Arcanum as a good example.

...it is not a good idea to criticize so strongly the work of a potential member of your team...

Again, I don't think the criticism should be viewed as aimed at the portraits. It's aimed at the usefulness of those portraits in the context. If a carpenter makes a wardrobe, and is criticized with "I can't sit on that.", it's no reflection on his skill as a carpenter - merely of the (mis)direction of his talents in the context.
Since the artist had no indication of the requirements, it's no fault of his if he's produced something that isn't quite appropriate.

Sometimes the concept artists post their work for preliminary discussions with their colleagues on boards such as http://www.conceptart.org/forums , so you may ask your proposed artist to look for advice there. Please note that the discussions there are much “softer” and constructive compared to the feedback you received on the Codex’s boards.

That's probably good advice, but I'd still say it's important to know what the intent is - they're good portraits if and only if they achieve what's required in the context.
I agree that most of the criticism here isn't constructive - simply because most people here don't have the knowledge/skill to be constructive on this issue. That doesn't make criticism worthless, however - it simply means that it's only useful in identifying problems, not in constructing solutions. Identifying problems is important, and is perhaps simpler for people with some knowledge of the context. The best artist in the world still needs to know the intent of the piece before he can be constructive.

 

[JuJu]

I often prefer my mental visualization of character portraits better than rendered ones. I have encountered this phenomena repeatedly in films made from books. The imagination is a powerful paintbrush, especially when the text descriptions are at the level they seem to be.

I completely agree. I don't want any small pictures in corner of the screen that ruin my impression of character. Only two games with imo good portraits are Fallout and Space Rangers, but it doesn't fit AoD. You can't do the Fallout kind of talking heads without redoing the dialogue screen and I doubt you have an artist capable of doing such a high quality job that is needed. Also they didn't have any descriptions in Fallout like you do.

 

[Mr.Rocco]

They don't appear to be professionally done.
I guess people expect to see amateurish quality in indie game but I say you should aim higher.

 

[cardtrick]

I don't suppose there's any chance of getting the same artist who did the concept art you have on your website? I really, really love those pieces, and since my understanding is that you're going to be using them in the game (for load screens and such), I think there's something to be said for having the portraits in the same style.

That said, I don't have a real problem with the two sample portraits you posted. They're not terribly distinctive, but as long as they fit the NPCs they'll be used for, I think they're better than nothing.

 

[MacBone]

. . .they both seem more amateurish than professional. Each seems flat compared to the third portrait you posted.

As opposed to the rest of the game?
Also, could everyone stop posting shitty alternatives? Because they're, uh, shitty.

Eh, if VD wants to go for the "hey, here's something I did in my spare time" look for AoD, that's a valid objection. Sure, that would be a true statement, but seems like he wants this game to be the best that it can possibly be. Teudogar's portraits aren't outstanding, but they're adequate.

I like the images that One Wolf posted from Ganbat, especially these ones:

 

[Vault Dweller]

I think that the portraits are decent. That being said, I don’t believe that portraits or concept art should be discussed with the community in the manner you’re discussing the gameplay mechanics. Although most of the members of these fora have some general idea what they want from an RPG, very few of us are competent enough to judge the artistic quality of the pictures.

The Codex represents the core audience. So if someone is competent enough to judge the artistic and other qualities, it would be these fine people. I know that Bethesda teaches us that only mighty DEVs are competent enough to judge stuff, but we tend to do things differently.

I agree with Roqua that it is not a good idea to criticize so strongly the work of a potential member of your team...

Well, I like his contribution and respect his desire to help, but I will not overlook flaws and pretend that everyone who works for Iron Tower is the most gifted individual ever, whose skills shall not be questioned.

Sometimes the concept artists post their work for preliminary discussions with their colleagues on boards such as http://www.conceptart.org/forums , so you may ask your proposed artist to look for advice there. Please note that the discussions there are much “softer” and constructive compared to the feedback you received on the Codex’s boards.

I'm very familiar with conceptart.org, that's where I got several artists from. The discussions are softer there, of course, but this is the Codex. I was terrified when I posted the first screen, to be honest, but I came to love the straight forward, often brutal, but always honest and very helpful criticism.

 

[Lord Chambers]

Portraits have always been annoying for me. They occupy a murky area between leaving the scene to the player's imagination on one end, and showing the scene exactly on the other. A detailed floating head removes my ability to imagine the character, yet without giving that character a real essence as it would in full-bodied 3d like Space Rangers. It pisses me off, as a player. I'm not convinced the person is real, and don't have the opportunity to supply the realness with my imagination.

But that's just me. What isn't a matter of opinion is that having portraits only for special NPCs is a horrendously clumsy way of communicating that NPCs importance to the player. The constraits of art shouldn't identify who is important, the setting's narrative should.

Oh, he's got a portrait, I better listen up! Oh, he's got a portrait, I better save before talking to him. His portrait, much like a charm spell, convinces me not to attack him. Meanwhile every NPC without a portrait instantly becomes less interesting and unworthy of such attention. They represent less threat, opportunity, and suprise. Interacting with non-portraited NPCs is like reading a loading screen. Something you put up with.

I hate portraits. Give all character's equally detailed ones, or do none at all.

 

[Jasede]

While we are working day and night ensuring that the combat system suckage doesn't exceed 80%, some guy decided to draw some portraits for us. I have my reservations (a lot of reservations, in fact), but what do you all think?

Well...
They aren't great, no way around it. The proportions and perspective are wonky... however, if your artist manages to capture the spirit of the NPCs well, and is ready to draw one for -each and every- NPC in the game, go for it. This really benefitted Ultima 7 and 7-2, even though it is by no means crucial. And they're not horrible suckage either, just not great. 6/10 seems apt.

 

[Elhoim]

Give all character's equally detailed ones, or do none at all.

QFT.

 

[Romitch]

Well if you do decide on portraits, I have to say I personally prefer ones more akin to what One Wolf posted (i.e. the woman and hooded figure above her). They are less anatomically detailed and "life-like" than the ones VD posted (not that those are photorealistic), and instead feature a degree of artistic stylization. I believe the obscurity of the stylization allows for greater imaginative initiative for the user playing the game (albeit not as much imagination as no portrait at all - after all, this is a game that forgoes elaborate fx and animation to instead feature Darklands-inspired written scene description, right?).

The Ganbat ones are of course just examples, so it's tough to judge whether the stylization will fit in the UI. The ones VD posted aren't bad, so I wouldn't see a problem with them in the game.

I would try to consider the effect of having portraits vs. not, looking at past examples of games. Fallout sticks out obviously as one that doesn't have a PC portrait but has up close views of the more crucial NPCs of the game (but not your party members). What other ones lack portraits (only the older games I would imagine)? Seems like everything else - Arcanum, BG, NWN, IWD, KOTOR, Ultima VII offer some sort of representation of the PC and at least some of the NPCs in the game world.

Playing through PS:T right now for the first time (not far into it yet) I'm realizing how cool it is that each townsperson has a very detailed description up front when you initiate dialogue. Despite the lesser variation in the char images themselves and the lack of portraits, this achieves an outstanding sense of character and diversity to the population in the game (granted, the party members have portraits).

Do you feel portraits will benefit the roleplaying and/or storytelling experience in AoD? And are you actually considering doing a portrait for every NPC in the game, or just the PC and/or party members?

Although I question the need for a PC portrait at all, it's not like implementing one is really gonna shatter the roleplaying. Either way, best wishes with all the work that remains.

 

[kingcomrade]

They aren't great, no way around it.

You are so full of shit.

 

[Jora]

How about asking the artist to make images for different actions (like climbing) or events (meeting the hypnotic mage) in the text adventure mode?

http://www.mobygames.com/game/dos/darkl ... tId,64209/

http://www.mobygames.com/game/windows/k ... otId,5269/

He seems to be able to draw humans regardless of what you think about his portraits.

 

[Claw]

QFT.

Give all characters talking heads, or none at all?

Hey, that sounds like the logical conclusion.

 

[Elhoim]

QFT.

Give all characters talking heads, or none at all?

Hey, that sounds like the logical conclusion.

Who said it was logical?

 

[Jora]

To elaborate more on my suggestion, I think it wouldn't take long for the artist to make pictures for many of the basic actions that the player will repeat often. The images could have very simple poses with very little background detail like in many of the Darklands images. The artist could certainly pull it off and I don't really see any reason not to do it. If he's cabable, he could do more complex scenes.

 

[Fryjar]

Well, the additional pictures for the adventure mode sound like a reasonable addition, since they certainly add more to the tension and atmosphere of an "action scene" that is soley depicted via text than a static ingame view would.
But you should keep in mind that, this would probably need quite an effort, since there should be more than just a few of those scenes.
So, VD what's your take on this, just considering the additional time and hassle it would take to integrate it?

 

[Sisay]

Those portraits are ok in my book but do they really add anything to the game? Having so-so portraits just for the sake of having portraits doesn't seem that great of an idea.

 

[dagorkan]

I think the original portraits are pretty good. Anyway I am so used to averagish portraits in RPGs that if I don't like them I can block them out and imagine the character the way I want, in tune with any text description, dialog, and my understanding of the setting.

Also I agree with Roqua and others that portraits for every NPC character is not a necessity and that something generic is fine.

Finally I want to second whoever it was who recommended the portraits from 'King of Dragon Pass'. They really are excellent, getting the right balance of showing something unique about each clan member without saying too much and fixing them into a rigid role. If you can find whoever made them and it's not too expensive I'd hope you go for that.

 

[Seboss]

I could live without portraits. I'd rather see colorful descriptions of the characters than generic portraits.
Of course, if you have the time and resources to bring good and unique portraits in the game, I'll be happy too.

 

[Sept13]

I took a shot at the portraits. Here's my vision of Cado and Cassius:


Cado

Cassius

All crits are appreciated


edit: increased the saturation and brightness slightly in the images. Originals viewable:
http://www.sept13.org/aod/cado.jpg
http://www.sept13.org/aod/cassius.jpg

 

[JuJu]

Wow these are cool! I have no objections to portraits if they are of this quality. They really show individual chararters of these people.

 

[Kingston]

VD's troubles in this department are probably over now.