Decline Respeccing in RPGs

[Onholyservicebound]

There's no LARPing required in a role playing games. In case you missed the myriad of times I've referenced it as a negative: I don't like LARPing, I like playing RPGs. But if your argument is that people telling me to LARP to enjoy the game are ruining everything, then yes, I agree.

I wasn't directing that at you. I don't even know who you are. But if the shoe fits, by all means, wear it.

Non-argument, passive aggressive shit, if you spend your whole post giving a pro argument and end on a quip with no target it's pretty natural to assume it's directed towards the other side or the argument.
Not surprising, I only post in RPG discussion when I go on the RPG codex.

So to reiterate, since this shit argument is brought up a lot. RPGs are not about LARPing, LARPers have no reason to bother with RPGs, they can play whatever imaginary role they want in almost any game.

If no choices you make are ever permanent, then there are no consequences.

Choosing build that will make your fights (or other game activity) longer and duller will permanently rob hours of your life.

Sounds like an argument for game balance more than anything else.

There is a trend in arpgs to treat a character build more like an equipment loadout, and this seems fine to me. I don't see why there is a point of principle here. Depending on the system configuring your build to solve a specific problem rather than a general one is potentially a lot more interesting. It's particularly appropriate for arpgs where different builds are mechanically very different and the build system is very linearised and restrictive, i.e. it's based around skill trees where your choices at low level can lock out certain abilities entirely. These kind of systems give you a lot of potential to gimp yourself and also tend to result in games where dicking about with your build is half the fun.

The others thing about arpgs is that the character building isn't really attempting to model a character archetype for roleplaying purposes in the same way that PnP systems usually are. A lot of people obviously enjoy games where your build defines your characters history, profession or personality and so on. Or even your characters personal philosophy in games like Arcanum with the magic/tech divide. In these games respec leaves a bad taste in the mouth at best. The criticism doesn't seem to apply to arpgs though since these games aren't really trying to do the same thing. In Aarklash your wizard archetype is just "Wizard who can cast very damaging lightning bolt" instead of "Wizard who can cast lightning bolt that bounces to five targets" and so on.

Good distinction, respec works fine in ARPGs and MMORPGs, I doubt anyone would really argue against that.

 

[HiddenX]

BTW: I hate every kind of respeccing. Even extensive Multiclassing or class changing in party CRPGs. Being a 'Jack of all trades' is often necessary in SP CRPGs. But in party CRPGs the fun for me is to find the right party mix and each character is keeping the profession that was selected for him at character creation.
I played with one party through Wizardry 6/7/8 without any class changing at all for example. Very satisfying experience.

A good CRPG is a CRPG that allows me to play through bad situations without reloading. Flee from battles for a Gold/Item or XP price. Find enemies that are to difficult at this moment? - nice if the game allows to parley with them (bribing, sweet talk,...).

Many players nowadays are talking about their best build party with the best equipment that never loses a fight - how boring.

Start with some misfits, make them better over time, enjoy the dangerous moments with just a few HP and gold left and a poison arrow in your back. Find the rare good items in the game. This is fun, this is satisfying role-playing.

 

[SymbolicFrank]

No

So, you think "role-playing games" are NOT about emulating and visualizing you, the player, to experience a life-like experience?

Congratulations! you just graduated on the Sawyerism School of Gamey Systems! I hope you like all the rightful bashing you're going to receive

 

[SymbolicFrank]

That is what we did in the old days, and it sucked.

Why?

To me, that's one of the main ingredients of a computer game: you can try again without life-threatening consequences.

It's the thing why every living person who knows about it would want life to be more like computer games.

 

[Clockwork Knight]

No

So, you think "role-playing games" are NOT about emulating and visualizing you, the player, to experience a life-like experience?

Congratulations! you just graduated on the Sawyerism School of Gamey Systems! I hope you like all the rightful bashing you're going to receive

Yes, how silly it is to treat a game as a game, instead of an Emotionally Engaging Experience.

behead all larper scum

 

[SymbolicFrank]

No

So, you think "role-playing games" are NOT about emulating and visualizing you, the player, to experience a life-like experience?

Congratulations! you just graduated on the Sawyerism School of Gamey Systems! I hope you like all the rightful bashing you're going to receive

Yes, how silly it is to treat a game as a game, instead of an emotionally engaging experience.

behead all larper scum

You mean, like how the majority of the population in Europe treats Soccer games? It's totally incredible; they don't even participate themselves, but they still treat it like a very emotionally engaging experience.

 

[Cool name]

IIRC when I played that chick mage could spam an AoE Silence spell forever (cooldown < duration) which trivialized almost all battles. Especially with that other undead mage around.

The silence spec for the skimpy sorceress was cool but dangerous, particularly at the end when one of those assholes casting the curse which turns all healing into damage on your dinorobogirl tank is pretty much instant game over and you can't be sure you will always cover all of them with the AoE, like in that fight at the end which is all elite melee guys and curse guys coming from different directions. I had her on interrupt and the top hat goblin on silence/blindness instead.

That aside, was the ogre tank as LOLworthless for you as it was for me? I thought he was kind of cute so I tried to use him every now and then. GAME OVER. Once the elite melee guys and the masses of shitty melee guys started to appear he went down in five seconds flat every time. >.<

And you dont feel that the ability to pause every second trivialized that gameplay experience compared to something like Warcraft III?

Not really. At least in hard modo you spend more time paused than unpaused anyway, so I doubt it would be playable at all otherwise.

Many players nowadays are talking about their best build party with the best equipment that never loses a fight - how boring.

That's the nature of CRPGs.

I rarely create OP characters in player skill based games, such as Demon's/Dark Souls, because I know I can compensate for weaknesses on my character by gittin gudder. The character, as it is during the tutorial, can win the game if I am gud enough, so what do I care if this weapon is less efficient than that weapon unless it is a character I am going to use for PvP? In a character skill based game my ability to explore, unlock, and enjoy the content depends entirely on my characters' ability. Therefore, whether my objective is to enjoy the story, the choices, the context, the ambience, the combat system, the magic system, the exploration, the puzzles, or whatever, I need to make sure my characters are up to the task, because I, myself, will only have limited ability to compensate.

And quite obviously, I don't play games to lose. When I install a new game, an implicit contract is forged between the game and I: It will try to kick my tail all the way to ragequitting, I will try to break it and make it mah biatch. If the game then goes an pulls the punches, tough luck. I am making it mah biatch all the same and carving another notch in mah broom.

 

[Night Goat]

That is what we did in the old days, and it sucked.

Why?

To me, that's one of the main ingredients of a computer game: you can try again without life-threatening consequences.

It's the thing why every living person who knows about it would want life to be more like computer games.

Repetition is boring. It's one thing to replay a game years later, when you barely remember it; it's another to slog through something you just did, already knowing what you're going to see and what's going to happen. I play RPGs mainly to explore and to experience the story, so having to replay the first few hours of a game is just a chore that needs to be done before I can get to the interesting part.

 

[SymbolicFrank]

That is what we did in the old days, and it sucked.

Why?

To me, that's one of the main ingredients of a computer game: you can try again without life-threatening consequences.

It's the thing why every living person who knows about it would want life to be more like computer games.

Repetition is boring. It's one thing to replay a game years later, when you barely remember it; it's another to slog through something you just did, already knowing what you're going to see and what's going to happen. I play RPGs mainly to explore and to experience the story, so having to replay the first few hours of a game is just a chore that needs to be done before I can get to the interesting part.

While I do agree with the sentiment, that's why The Sims sold about as much copies as all other games combined.

 

[Copper]

It's a bit of an obvious point, but most games also obviously allow for limited respec through gear choice, which nobody really has a problem with, except the people who want to stick lots of pre-reqs on gear - they really don't want any hint of a respec.

If everything is just equipment loadout, then nothing is permanent. If no choices you make are ever permanent, then there are no consequences. There is only power. That is your only real, constant attribute. Power Level. You are an amorphous, all-powerful blob, conforming to whatever will make you the most powerful at any given moment. Ie, you are Mr. Master Sergeant Spartan Warrior, the unstoppable FPS godlike being who does everything and anything perfectly - except talk to people, where he is dead wood.

Sure, if everything can be swapped on a whim and the player can easily access a wide range of skills, that would be a valid concern, and be bad design. I'd propose, of the top of my head, either a skill-based system where characters can have a lot of basic skills, to cover all the mundane can talk to girls/can't drive a car but have to use up some resource to do anything amazing with them, based on attributes. Social, confident guy? You can burn those charisma points, but you need to save your intellect points for more serious shit. Getting new skills? easy. More points? Much harder. For a more class-based approach, you can have explicit character development rewards tied to the game in a less arbitrary way than xp, just as learning new spells has very little to do with gaining levels as a wizard in D&D. Want to learn the five forms of the Leaping Tiger? Better be a fighter and help out the old monk. Shame they're not really your play-style, and you rarely use them afterwards, but at least there were some nice encounters along the way, and you'd never have met that old witch who passed on that sweet shamanic prayer to your cleric which you use all the time now and really suits you.

 

[abnaxus]

That aside, was the ogre tank as LOLworthless for you as it was for me? I thought he was kind of cute so I tried to use him every now and then. GAME OVER. Once the elite melee guys and the masses of shitty melee guys started to appear he went down in five seconds flat every time. >.<

I found ogre bro only really useful in the final fight when I replaced the goblin (whom I had used as mage killer the entire game) with him. He's not bad, but the dinorobochick just eclipses him in every way. She's simply indestructible unless she happens to get hit with a anti-healing curse (which can easily happen if you don't concentrate for a second or two).

 

[deuxhero]

Respecing is fine if its a once or twice a playthrough thing. Making a perfectly balanced system with options is impossible.

Action RPGs where ALL stats are tied to equipment and you could radically change your build dramatically whenever you can change equipment (but this carries the costs of actually getting the equipment), are fine but not really what this topic is about.

 

[baturinsky]

No

So, you think "role-playing games" are NOT about emulating and visualizing you, the player, to experience a life-like experience?

Congratulations! you just graduated on the Sawyerism School of Gamey Systems! I hope you like all the rightful bashing you're going to receive

Roleplaying games are many different things and can be played many different ways. What you tell about is only a small subset of both. Or of a close, but slightly different genre of life sims.

 

[Telengard]

It's a bit of an obvious point, but most games also obviously allow for limited respec through gear choice, which nobody really has a problem with, except the people who want to stick lots of pre-reqs on gear - they really don't want any hint of a respec.

If everything is just equipment loadout, then nothing is permanent. If no choices you make are ever permanent, then there are no consequences. There is only power. That is your only real, constant attribute. Power Level. You are an amorphous, all-powerful blob, conforming to whatever will make you the most powerful at any given moment. Ie, you are Mr. Master Sergeant Spartan Warrior, the unstoppable FPS godlike being who does everything and anything perfectly - except talk to people, where he is dead wood.

Sure, if everything can be swapped on a whim and the player can easily access a wide range of skills, that would be a valid concern, and be bad design. I'd propose, of the top of my head, either a skill-based system where characters can have a lot of basic skills, to cover all the mundane can talk to girls/can't drive a car but have to use up some resource to do anything amazing with them, based on attributes. Social, confident guy? You can burn those charisma points, but you need to save your intellect points for more serious shit. Getting new skills? easy. More points? Much harder. For a more class-based approach, you can have explicit character development rewards tied to the game in a less arbitrary way than xp, just as learning new spells has very little to do with gaining levels as a wizard in D&D. Want to learn the five forms of the Leaping Tiger? Better be a fighter and help out the old monk. Shame they're not really your play-style, and you rarely use them afterwards, but at least there were some nice encounters along the way, and you'd never have met that old witch who passed on that sweet shamanic prayer to your cleric which you use all the time now and really suits you.

So, the main issue with respec is there is no associated real cost to respeccing. The only existing cost out there is money, which is a laughable "cost" in loot-based games. The only cost benefit ratio currently in common play out there is magic equipment vs respec. So, the only choice one makes is a purchase of magic equipment that makes a couple of one's characters a single pip better, or directly assaulting the weakness of the next level of enemies by morphing your character into their opposite, or hoarding your money. There is no "choice" there; the best answer is clear.

One can attempt to set an artificial limit on it, but one must be careful to ensure that that artificial limit actually limits the use of that aspect over the course of the game. For instance, if one can respec once per bonus point in a stat, that just encourages the player to max one stat in each character to ensure they have the max respecs available over the course of the game, and then scout each area and respec to max counter that area, utilizing their large stack of respecs.

Such will always be an issue as long as there is is no real cost associated with min/maxing one's characters, other than LARP value. To have it have an actual cost, one could do something like: you send your character in to have radical brain surgery in order to replace their current skills and experience with a different set, but at the cost of a painful surgery that permanently lowers their CON by 1d4. They will of course save-scum to make it 1, but it will then permanently cost them something, even if it is only 1 CON point.

Only with a real cost associated with it is it not to your advantage to always be respeccing to min/max.

 

[Norfleet]

A player doesn't need to know "how real mages really work in the real world" to understand what a talent that makes them immune to arcane spells does.

I doubt it would ever be that obvious, otherwise in any magic-heavy environment, that talent would practically be a gimmie. If flat out "Mage Slayer Here" isn't basically printed on the talent tree, then someone designing such a thing is going to be digging through some really obscure, systems-specific stuff. I know this because I've done this.

I rarely create OP characters in player skill based games, such as Demon's/Dark Souls, because I know I can compensate for weaknesses on my character by gittin gudder. The character, as it is during the tutorial, can win the game if I am gud enough, so what do I care if this weapon is less efficient than that weapon unless it is a character I am going to use for PvP?

Especially if there's no respec, I end up hoarding all my points and never getting around to spending them.

 

[Lhynn]

Respeccing goes against the spirit of what an RPG is about, it is a lazy answer from designers but often a necessary evil.
The real root of the problem lies in artificial caps to character growth and an emphasis on overspecialization.

 

[CyberP]

How in the fuck is it a necessary evil? It has not been necessary in hundreds of RPGs, RPGs of differing style.
Respeccing is bullshit popamole-esque design. End thread.

 

[Lhynn]

How in the fuck is it a necessary evil? It has not been necessary in hundreds of RPGs, RPGs of differing style.
Respeccing is bullshit popamole-esque design. End thread.

Because its not the root of the problem, just a byproduct of shitty design.

 

[Cadmus]

How in the fuck is it a necessary evil? It has not been necessary in hundreds of RPGs, RPGs of differing style.
Respeccing is bullshit popamole-esque design. End thread.

Because its not the root of the problem, just a byproduct of shitty design.

I agree with Cyber

I can't think of a game where it really was a necessary evil. Maybe I haven't played that many games. If the system is real shit, the respec can be nice to get some more fun out of the game but it's not necessary.

 

[Xeon]

I kinda stop playing if I stop having fun in a game so if there is a respec option it kinda helps me try different things until I finish, otherwise I just mostly quit.

Dunno if that's a good reason but its kinda valid for me.

 

[Whiran]

I agree with Cyber

I can't think of a game where it really was a necessary evil. Maybe I haven't played that many games. If the system is real shit, the respec can be nice to get some more fun out of the game but it's not necessary.

Look at Legend of Grimrock II - a respec option at around the 1 hour mark would be a great way to get around their lack of explanations of what all the skills do during character creation.

The real solution would be better design consideration during character creation with expanded and detailed descriptions of each individual skill (including what spells become available for each spell skill) and detailed information as to what weapons fit into what weapon category. For example, a long sword is a light weapon. In most RPGs a long sword is considered to be a "medium" weapon so it could have gone either way (light or heavy.)

The respec is a quick way to get a player out of feeling the need to restart the game to find a party mix that works for them. If you check out the Legend of Grimrock II thread you'll see a variety of different people talking about how often they restarted (reroll) to find a better party mix. This isn't about just min/maxing but also about finding a playstyle that works for you.

Personally, I hate starting an RPG only to discover that my choices during character creation lead me somewhere that I was not expecting. Going back to Legend of Grimock II (mainly because I picked it up this week) I made a wizard with 1 skill point in water magic and 1 point in concentration. Unfortunately, there was no useful skill level 1 water spell - turns out 'dispel' is available at skill level 1 with 1 point in concentration but that spell has no value until, I suspect, much later into the game. None of the early game creatures did anything that would require it at least. There is no level 2 skill water spell. There -is- a level 3 water spell but only if you also picked up air magick. So, at the start of the game and for a significant period into the game I had a wizard who had no spells to cast.

I was playing blind and my purpose was to play blind all the way through. That didn't work due to frustration - I wound up looking online to find out if I was missing something. I wasn't. The first damage water spell is a skill level 3 water and skill level 1 air spell. Once I learned that I was able to pick up the appropriate skills and finally start using my wizard. A respec would have been a band-aid to this bad design.

Other RPGs suffer from the same thing so the respec gives a quick fix without addressing the root problem but at least it is something.

 

[LizardWizard]

Respecs are chill if a) costly, not just currency wise but costly on a power scale permentantly or for at least a limited time b) cleverly designed within the gameworld rather than a lazy reset template button

 

[AW8]

When I found out that Crysis 2 had a free respec option I threw my computer out the window

It should be a console command, not like some Temple of Respecc with a bas relief of the Phoenix or some dumb shit where they pretend it's a proper element of the game.

Yes. You want to respec? Then fire up the console and do whatever you want. You shall not be judged. But that should not be a part of the normal game.

Temples of Respec are appalling, as the developers actually spent time designing and building assets instead of simply putting in a new button in the UI.

Respeccing
Auto-leveling
Auto-progression
Auto-healing
Handholding
...
-> CRPG poison.

Agree. Lack of consequences kills choices. Quest arrows kill exploration. Respeccing kills character progression.

 

[SymbolicFrank]

Respeccing is easy anyway. I always do it when I don't like how my char(s) evolved and I don't feel like restarting and rerolling. It doesn't matter if the game supports it, that's why we have save-game editors, hex-editors, memory editors and (worst-case) debuggers. It's far easier and faster than restarting.

You can cheat that way as well, but when I feel the need to do so, I tend to lose interest in the game. Bad games needing crutches and all that.