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Revisiting VtM: Bloodlines

ZagorTeNej

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Does anyone feel as irritated as me when people talk about wesp's unwarranted changes that he call fixes?
Good grief.

That's hardly the case anymore with the basic (which over the years became more and more basic) and plus patch separation. Sure, there are still some gameplay changes compared to last official patch Troika put out in a hurry but a number of them were in the unofficial patch before Wesp took charge of it and continued the work started by some guy called Dan.

Of course it probably should have never been called an unofficial patch to begin with, restoration project would have been more appropriate.
 

Prime Junta

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Given the number of mandatory fights, we can safely assume that they simply didn't want to give players the possibility of a fully pacifist run and consider some amount of combat part of the setting.
At least all clans can be made efficient fighters without too much effort or xp investment initially - and later one you know to expect some fights from time to time.
With that in mind, yeah, it would be cool to have the possibility of pacifist runs, but calling it a design flaw is exaggerating a bit, imo.

I was talking about the principle of the thing. IMO if you make a game with unavoidable, tough, straight-up combat, then you shouldn't have character mechanics which let you make noncombat builds, and, conversely, if you have such a character system, then you should make sure your content also supports noncombat builds. With Bloodlines there's the additional problem that in actual fact, noncombat/ninja build are really easy and really effective until you're pretty deep into the game, at which point you get massive difficulty spikes. That is a design flaw as far as I'm concerned.

I.e., since the Storyteller system was a given for VtM:B, they should also have written in support for noncombat/stealth builds, at least through the crit path.

I have no objection to side content tailored specifically for some types of character, but they're of secondary importance, and if you put them in, then it's best to put in a few different ones for different builds. Have some side content for combat builds, some for sneak builds, and some for talky builds, and make them tough enough that going at them with the wrong build poses a very serious challenge.
 

makiavelli747

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IMO if you make a game with unavoidable, tough, straight-up combat, then you shouldn't have character mechanics which let you make noncombat builds
But in many ways it is like that. For example Presence is originally only for talking, but in a game its fully combat discipline. Basically, every single discipline in a game makes your char better at combat.
 

Roguey

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I have no objection to side content tailored specifically for some types of character, but they're of secondary importance, and if you put them in, then it's best to put in a few different ones for different builds. Have some side content for combat builds, some for sneak builds, and some for talky builds, and make them tough enough that going at them with the wrong build poses a very serious challenge.

You just described Bishop Vick. :M
 

Prime Junta

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I have no objection to side content tailored specifically for some types of character, but they're of secondary importance, and if you put them in, then it's best to put in a few different ones for different builds. Have some side content for combat builds, some for sneak builds, and some for talky builds, and make them tough enough that going at them with the wrong build poses a very serious challenge.

You just described Bishop Vick. :M

Indeed I did. Which is probably why it was a bit of a poor choice to illustrate my point.

If the whole game had the same mix of talky/sneaky/fighty side content as Santa Monica and Downtown, and no unavoidable boss fights, I would be a very happy vampire.
 

Gord

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I was talking about the principle of the thing. IMO if you make a game with unavoidable, tough, straight-up combat, then you shouldn't have character mechanics which let you make noncombat builds, and, conversely, if you have such a character system, then you should make sure your content also supports noncombat builds.

To some degree, yes.
But the fact is, it's no big deal to branch out into combat ability with some relatively small investments given your various options.
As has been pointed out, almost all the disciplines offer some combat advantage or ability and various synergies enhance combat abilities as well. In fact it's probably more of an active effort not to build a combat-ready character.
Granted, I say that from the perspective of someone who has played the game several times, so a new player who tries to completely ignore combat abilities might end up in a tight spot in some of the boss fights, mostly because he has less experience about how to get the most out of the tools at his disposal.
But nevertheless I agree with you that it would have been nice to get offered a few more options in some of the boss fights.

In any case, Bloodlines to me seems like a game where you are less likely to end up in a trap build (and escaping is easier) than in certain other games that offer the player a lot of build options (I'm looking at you Age of Decadence).
 

Roguey

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If the whole game had the same mix of talky/sneaky/fighty side content as Santa Monica and Downtown, and no unavoidable boss fights, I would be a very happy vampire.

The Hollywood sidequests are also fine for this. Chinatown too to a lesser extent, it's just that there are so few sidequests there.
 
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you are right, in vanilla its not worth it yet, but instead of spending 32 points on physical attributes you still could have auspex 4 for 25 points and in meleefight just use bloodbuff anyway.

Bloodbuff is only +2 and is a pain to use every time you want to feed or do melee combat.

additional 24 points in research would give you free dodge/firearms 5 plus level in persuasion and intimidation

You get another final free point in Scholarship after the Giovanni mansion. 10 research isn't worth it since it only gives you firearms (firearms is best maxed by buying the 1st, 3rd and 4th point, free point from book and romero, total cost only 18 xp).

max skillcheck is 7 for intimidation(upd: nope, its 8. 7/7 is better then), if you don't use persuasion above 8, then 6-7 is enough(7 only for Chinese killers and to persuade Ricky at Johnny's club, with persuasion 6 you still can get in to basement of Giovanny mansion).

Kind of irrelevant if the skill checks aren't good for intimidate. For Persusion most points come from scholarship which needs to be raised anyway, early on it needed a point of charismato hit some skill checks.

plus, add points you spend on thaumaturgy and dominate, and you could easily had 11 or even 12 lvl of ranged weapons by this time. seduction 4 is useless, you can fuck Jeanette w/o seduction skill, and feed on the street or just buy whores and save another 10 points.
and w/o disciplines like celerity, potence, fortitude or presence its not worth to invest a lot in melee(but yes, its almost free in this case)

Melee is perfectly acceptable with just Blood Shield (and still quite adequate when not). Chang brothers in particular were completely destroyed by the katana while ranged weapons were pretty meh. No need maxing out to 13 ranged when melee is still better. FWIW I had 12 ranged by the Giovanni.

In any case I don't really see what the discussion is about now. My point was that Bloodlines gave you enough free skill points and XP to do pretty much everything if you built wisely. I think that's been proven. Before you were telling me that haggle is so good, now you have shifted 180 and are criticizing my build for not having maxed several combat stats with a third of the game's XP still unearned.

Now in vanilla where AFAIK you don't have the long cool down and can spam the blood spells, yeah you can take anything down in seconds if you have the blood (like Harm in Arcanum).
you can switch between spells while cooldown

You can't cast new spells though, unless there's some exploit I'm missing.


Yeah TBH the mechanics aren't really interesting enough to warrant this type of discussion.

I only brought up my problem with Vick and the ninja Malk because IMO it illustrates a problem with the game -- it encourages you to make different builds and usually gives you many different ways to approach situations, but in some cases hits you with fairly massive difficulty spikes if you haven't built for straight-up toe-to-toe combat one way or another.

I know this is a bit of a contentious issue here -- "no bad builds" and all that -- but I feel pretty strongly that character-building systems should strive for differentiation rather than simply "better" or "worse" characters (which are going to be a side effect no matter what you do).

I.e.: if your character-building system uses a single resource pool and gives you choices to distribute them between, say, talking, sneaking, lockpicking/hacking, brawling, and shooting, then your game should support each of these styles as well. Bloodlines gives the impression that it wants to -- most quests have multiple ways to approach them and talky skills plus lockpicking and hacking feel really rewarding -- but then it hits you with boss fights that can only be approached by straight-up combat, some of which are on the crit path and unskippable (Blood Guardian, the Tzimisce, Bach, Ming Xiao, the Sheriff etc.). This is a fairly significant flaw, and one that would not have been all that hard to address. This is IMO more of a design flaw than just lack of polish; there are so many instances that it can't be just happenstance.

Problem with Bloodlines is that it so so combat-less in other parts of the game that the difficulty spikes come completely out of nowhere from left field. If Bloodlines was an actual combat game the player would be able to rate their character abilities vs. a difficulty curve and adjust accordingly, in Bloodlines you only momentarily make contact with the difficulty curve once every few hours and need to just guess where it is in the meantime and hope it doesn't spike to your disadvantage.

Overall the game is begging for a much more openworld style of gameplay. As it is its like... Fallout 2 if you were able to non-combat every thing to the Den, but to actually leave the Den you had to take down Metzger's gang. Just wouldn't work for most builds.

I certainly wouldn't call these changes a case of implementing "no bad builds". Bloodlines is different that it actively deceives you into thinking that it isn't a combat heavy game. A talker in Bloodlines isn't like rolling an 18 strength 3 int wizard, which should be obviously stupid, because the talker actually works for most of the game and at most the game strongly hints that the player should also be able to sneak and get some minor combat skills to beat a few mooks.
 
Last edited:

makiavelli747

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Bloodbuff is only +2 and is a pain to use every time you want to feed or do melee combat.
In vanilla it increases physical att. to 5. When you have strength 3 then its +2, when str. 1 then +4
10 research isn't worth it since it only gives you firearms
I was talking about research 9. Research 9 gives firearms and dodge 5.
(firearms is best maxed by buying the 1st, 3rd and 4th point, free point from book and romero, total cost only 18 xp).
Romero will train you if firearms <3 in vanilla and basic UP, and <4 if plus patch.
My point was that Bloodlines gave you enough free skill points and XP to do pretty much everything if you built wisely. I think that's been proven.
Ok, I agree with that.
 
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I was talking about research 9. Research 9 gives firearms and dodge 5.

Meh, if its not research 10 then its a minor amount of lost XP on my part.

(firearms is best maxed by buying the 1st, 3rd and 4th point, free point from book and romero, total cost only 18 xp).
Romero will train you if firearms <3 in vanilla and basic UP, and <4 if plus patch.
Sneaky trick: You can raise your firearms (or other skills) in dialog and they'll still train it. But then I guess it backfired if I could have gotten it for free later.
 

makiavelli747

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Sneaky trick: You can raise your firearms (or other skills) in dialog and they'll still train it.
Yeah, I knew about this, but it is... really dirty. Could be fixed by the way, its far worst than selling books, imo, but it still a minor thing.
 
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Well it effectively gives you 3 XP by buying the skill slightly cheaper and is fairly rarely useful, while selling and buying a book back again gives you more like 9 xp and is useful way more often.
 

makiavelli747

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while selling and buying a book back again gives you more like 9 xp and is useful way more often.
Yes, but while buying books is just a trick, dialogue's abuse is more like a bug of engine(but I agree that same could be said about books... but still). Anyway, it does not really matter.
 
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I always felt that the Camarilla ending is the wisest. The anarchs are just a group of punks with no idea what is going on or how to keep things together; LaCroix is incompetent and ambitious (a combination of traits I come across in real life quite often and it's profoundly damaging); I have no idea what kind of character would choose the Asian vampires, either really stupid or stupidly power-hungry to a whole-consuming detriment; Independent is the other choice I think is valid, but it kinda puts your character in a bad position after that and is somewhat out-of-character with the whole game (since you've been running errands this whole time).

The Camarilla offers order and structure, while the game doesn't show that they are somehow abusing their power or anything like that, so I think they are "clean", at least as clean as any authority figure/organization can be.

Undecided about the Camarilla itself - the anarchs at least have the benefit of being an experiment still in progress. But Strauss is definitely the best guy to leave in charge, even if you're skeptical enough to take his apparent humility with a grain of salt. Even if he's in it for himself, he's the only contender with the necessary long-term perspective. Jack and Beckett have that in spades, but they aren't interested in running the place, for that very reason. Strauss at least can see past the immediate conflicts to realise that most of the Anarchs are just the vampire equivalent of teenagers (even Nines is only about 80-90), and that he needs to distinguish between hardened adult offenders like Jack, and the vast majority of the juvenile Anarchs for whom a firm paternalistic approach will result in most of them 'growing up' to be responsible members of the Camarilla community. Being wise enough to put the sarcophogus safely stored away like Raiders of the Lost Ark is a big plus as well - presumably he knows that it's likely a trap, but also that if it really is an ancient then it's best left unopened, and in doing so, he's actually outsmarted Jack.

I like the way that the game structures Nines' apparent death and the decision to help the anarchs. The developers seem to have deliberately written it to encourage players to have strong loyalty to Nines, knowing that this will encourage many of them to want to support the Anarchs. By seemingly killing Nines off, it suddenly forces the player to think about whether it's the anarchs that they like, or just Nines, and that if it's just Nines then maybe they ought to rethink their choice.
 

Gondolin

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Being wise enough to put the sarcophogus safely stored away like Raiders of the Lost Ark is a big plus as well - presumably he knows that it's likely a trap, but also that if it really is an ancient then it's best left unopened, and in doing so, he's actually outsmarted Jack..

Maybe. I can see why you've drawn the conclusion that Jack had recklessly opened the sarcophagus for shit and giggles, but you don't know that for sure. Jack may have his own sources of information, including the mysterious taxi driver.
 
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All of the sides have some reason to go with them:

LaCroix is not incompetent, or at least he doesn't give the impression that he's any more so than any of the contenders to replace him. He's the top dog of the area with multiple groups trying to take him down. Even though we don't see it there is a war going on that is referenced often by the end game, which is killing lots of vampires on every side. And despite the civilized Camarilla pretenses, it's still very much a "might makes right" system. Had the sarcophagus gone according to plan his side would have been one of the best picks.

Camarilla is the "lawful good" path if you will, however its not clear exactly how strong the Camarilla minus LaCroix is. Strauss really seems like a shitty leader to take over, he's a background guy who couldn't lead the vampires in war. The Malkavian primogen is dead, the Nosferatu can't lead, the only other options are the unnamed primogen of clans we don't see. Without LaCroix its quite possible that the region will descend into chaos from which one of the other sides would easily snatch control of the city. I'm assuming that the Sabbat and Kuei-Jin aren't complete chumps that are going to give up and go home, and that the player isn't going to be able to just kill them all.

Anarchs are, IMO, the ones who seem like the strongest faction and most likely to win the city outside of player intervention. They've apparently survived the majority of the game being the main war target of all the sides, along with Nines being hunted, to no ill effect and with none of the major characters dying. Nines can kill a fucking werewolf, Jack is considered badass by everyone who mentions him, Isaac has a good diplomatic face and is the only one in the game who seems a serious contender to replace LaCroix, and he's potentially got his Gargoyle as a counterpart to LaCroix's Seriff. However they are the kind of faction that could just as easily collapse in the end, or go feral like the Sabbat, or something else.

Kuei-Jin are obviously going to double cross you. Even as Xiao pretends to be nice she constantly reinforces the fact that the two vampire kinds are naturally at war with each other just by being in the same city. However this also makes them by far the best target to double cross yourself. They seem naturally the most weak and the most disliked by every non Kuei-Jin in the city. The only reason they've made in-roads in the first place is because the Anarchs are drawing most of the Camarilla's ire. It's a shame that you get cutscene strong-armed by 2 thugs wielding guns that can't even hurt you rather than being able to just fight her right there and take the sarcophagus for yourself.
 

Gondolin

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I dislike LaCroix because he doesn't seem to have any strategy. He's on a power trip and making things up as he goes. He might be a flamboyant schemer (lawl), but he's a weak leader.
 

DeepOcean

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How much does Humanity effect dialog in general? I've always kept it high since it seemed the right thing, and assumed that low humanity would just lock out quests or dialog.

I did the lowest possible Humanity run (non Malkavian) once and dialogues changed A LOT. I had a lot of laughs out of how much of an asshole you become. It gets to the point where game doesn't even allow you to be nice to people anymore.
Son, you are tempting me to replay again.
 

pippin

Guest
How much does Humanity effect dialog in general? I've always kept it high since it seemed the right thing, and assumed that low humanity would just lock out quests or dialog.

I did the lowest possible Humanity run (non Malkavian) once and dialogues changed A LOT. I had a lot of laughs out of how much of an asshole you become. It gets to the point where game doesn't even allow you to be nice to people anymore.
Son, you are tempting me to replay again.

You will reinstall Bloodlines, finish it, and then reinstall Deus Ex and finish that. Rinse and repeat.
 

ZagorTeNej

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Anarchs are, IMO, the ones who seem like the strongest faction and most likely to win the city outside of player intervention. They've apparently survived the majority of the game being the main war target of all the sides, along with Nines being hunted, to no ill effect and with none of the major characters dying. Nines can kill a fucking werewolf, Jack is considered badass by everyone who mentions him, Isaac has a good diplomatic face and is the only one in the game who seems a serious contender to replace LaCroix, and he's potentially got his Gargoyle as a counterpart to LaCroix's Seriff. However they are the kind of faction that could just as easily collapse in the end, or go feral like the Sabbat, or something else.

Nines killed the werewolf sure but he barely survived that encounter and was out of commission for the final fight. The biggest advantage for Anarchs is having Jack the masterful troll on their side, he orchestrated the whole scenario in which LaCroix ended up with the sarcophagus and Kue-Jin with the key, with Sabbat left in the middle wanting to diablerize the sleeping ancient. He basically got all the power players that are a threat to Anarchs at each other throats (LaCroix-Ming Xiao alliance was temporary until Prince snatched the sarcophagus) and even riddled the thing with explosives to take out whichever power hungry SOB survived the struggle.
 

Lambach

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Nines can kill a fucking werewolf

Out of all the ways VtMB shits on the P&P lore, this is probably the biggest offender. There is no combination of words sufficient to describe the sheer impossibility of a 70-80 year old Vampire killing a Garou in a 1v1 fight, es-fucking-pecially when the said Garou had the jump on him.
 

Prime Junta

Guest
Continuing my Malk run. Vick wasn't so tough the second time around, I could indeed dispatch him pretty effectively with a combination of Obfuscate, shotgun, and ducking behind something to have it reactivate.

Also intentionally wrecked my Humanity. Since this is my first Malk run since 2004 or thereabouts I have no way to tell how much the dialog has changed but there is a lot of HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA there for sure.

It really is a shame there's so little variety to the gameplay and the game is so linear; other than the dialog, this isn't any different from my previous run.

(Curses on whoever brought up Deus Ex. Now I really want to replay that.)
 

pippin

Guest
Your lives will be spent playing and replayign Bloodlines and Deus ex from now on, men. You will not care about any other video games.
Bloodlines and Deus Ex.
Install, play, rinse, repeat.
 
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Nines can kill a fucking werewolf

Out of all the ways VtMB shits on the P&P lore, this is probably the biggest offender. There is no combination of words sufficient to describe the sheer impossibility of a 70-80 year old Vampire killing a Garou in a 1v1 fight, es-fucking-pecially when the said Garou had the jump on him.

To be fair there is no indication of how he did it, he could have bullshitted the fight the way you can.
 

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