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Rogue Spear is soooo much better than Raven Shield

Silva

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I've got all R6 and GR games on my PC. Well, at least the ones that run on Win 8 and are on Steam. Which means the original R6 and Rogue Spear are impossible to run. So this last weekend I decided to install Win 7 just to run those two. And bro, how happy I am that I did this. The original feels too crude but Rogue Spear is eminently playable and totally awesome to this day. And with the mod available that infuses the original campaign into it, you can have the two original campaigns inside Rogue engine.

But my main point here is that Rogue Spear as an overall game is soooo much better then Raven Shield. And that's due to two reasons: campaign maps and sense of style. The big portraits from Rogue Spear give the agents a personality, a life, that the micro-portraits from Raven can't replicate. Also, it may sound crazy to hear this, but the crude but photorealistic gfx from Rogue give it a distinct sense of style that makes the 3d polygonized visuals of Raven look like a generic gfx mod. But what really makes the difference is the main campaign maps: Rogue smaller and infinitely replayable sandbox maps are much more enjoyable, and seem to fit the overall series formula and vision, much better than Raven's gigantic, linear and heavily crowded maps. What did they think with that huge maps from Raven is beyond me. Most are so gigantic and nonsensical that makes the whole planning phase pointless. Also, some Rogue Spear maps are sooo creative! That airplane one where your team may approach it by hiding behind the bus is genius!

So, that's it. Thoughts ?
 

Silva

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And by the way, do someone know the actual difference between the Assault and Agression agent stats ? I thought I've read some time ago that Agression commands a kind of flight or fight impulse, for dictating how the agent acts when panicking. But I may be mistaken.

Also, it seems the heavy suits are optimally better in all situations than the rest. Supposedly the lighter suits make less noise. But I haven't seen any difference ever.
 

sser

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Never played Raven Shield, but I have to imagine that Rogue Spear is the best in the R6 series -- one of those games that completely blew me away when I played it. IIRC lighter suits just meant your bros were faster. That's pretty relevant on some missions, but it's been forever since I played it; I feel like one involved a refinery and a bomb situation, but I can't recall. Aggression is just how gung-ho your dudes are about shooting back. Again, pretty important on missions where there are hostages to take account of. I think, for example, if they are on full-out assault mode and board the plane they'll gun down just about everything in sight (it's actually one of the missions that's best played as the point man, although it's also very difficult and tense to do). The best part of Rogue Spear for me was the multiplayer but I doubt any of that still exists.
 
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It was great fun as a kid, plenty of varied locations you don't really see nowadays too.
I remember seeing an attempt at remaking rogue spear but with lots of modability, but it died. :cry:

I guess the closest we'll get to a remake is the more Ghost Recon inspired Ground Branch which has some Red Storm Fellas.

Edit: Remember that godawful Takedown: Red Sabre, apparently those guys tried again.
http://store.steampowered.com/app/300760/
 
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SniperHF

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I prefer Raven Shield. I agree with you that Rogue Spear has some serious advantages in maps but everywhere else I think Raven Shield is better. The weapons have more felt differences. The AI is less buggery (still sucks though). The on the fly zulu command was made easier to use. UE2 is just better than the old R6 engine.

Hadn't heard about that mod that lets you played the original in the RS engine though, will have to remember that for next time.
 

Whisky

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Maybe it's just muh autism, but I can't stand shooters where I can't see the guns. Rogue Spear just makes me feel uncomfortable, no matter how good its design may be.

Love me some Raven Shield though.
 

Carrion

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Rogue Spear is great, probably the better of the two, but they're both classics. Rogue Spear's maps are indeed tighter and quicker to play through, which is a plus in a game which so heavily relies on planning and executing your actions perfectly (although Raven Shield has a bunch of very cool and compact maps as well), and it has a few different mission types aside from the standard hostage rescue stuff and terrorist hunts (ambushes and those fucking infuriating but oh-so-satisfying stealth missions), whereas Raven Shield only has one or two short and easy stealth missions. Rogue Spear just generally has a bit more variety, although Raven Shield has some very good and memorable missions as well. Raven Shield is better on some other areas, as the AI is more human-like, the weapons are more realistic, and there are some mechanical improvements like opening doors with the mouse wheel (such a shame this hasn't been used more in games). Raven is probably mechanically superior of the two, but Rogue shines in mission design.
 

bussinrounds

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Didn't they import Rogue Spears missions into Raven Shield with a mod or something ?

I know I was messing around with that Raven Shield 2.0 mod a little and the ppl who did that were supposedly working on another one, but I don't think it ever materialized.
 
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Siveon

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Maybe it's just muh autism, but I can't stand shooters where I can't see the guns.
It's definitely one of those things that require getting used to, but after a while you're focusing on squad tactics rather than an odd graphical oversight. Not sure why they didn't have them in the first place, it just seems like something you need in an FPS.
 

Trotsky

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Rainbow Six 3 was the best game in the series but Rogue Spear is underrated as well. Tom Clancy shooters like R6 shaped the modern FPS genre far more than anything else.
 

Carrion

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Tom Clancy shooters like R6 shaped the modern FPS genre far more than anything else.
They're more like the antithesis of modern first-person shooters, unfortunately.

Swat 4 is sooooo much better than all Rainbow Six games.
SWAT 4 is great, but in truth the games are very different. Rainbow Six is super twitchy (if you spend a split second thinking about whether to take a shot or not, you'll probably end up dead), and for the most part it revolves around killing everything. SWAT 4, on the other hand, is probably the least twitchy shooter of all time (my left-handed ex-girlfriend who had never played an FPS before and played SWAT 4 with a right-handed mouse could beat it with just a bit of help, because it's all about taking your time and choosing the right approach for each situation), as you'll generally want to avoid firing your guns as much as possible. In Rainbow Six you'll usually make a plan beforehand and then try to execute it to perfection (and try again and again until you get it right, which can take a good while with some missions), whereas in SWAT 4 you'll improvise on the fly based on what you see and hear. After a successful mission in Rainbow Six the ground is littered with corpses, whereas in SWAT 4 everyone's wearing zip-ties and at most is feeling a little sting from a bean bag or having a light headache from a flashbang.

All things considered SWAT 4 is probably the most realistic tactical shooter out there, fiilled with believeable scenarios whereas R6 has, you know, "Tom Clancy" written on it. On the other hand SWAT 4 is also much easier, often relying on its atmosphere and well-designed locations to create excitement, whereas R6 gets your adrenaline pumping simply because of how ruthless it is — if you get careless even for a second, a terrorist might wipe your entire squad out in a heartbeat. I never got the same satisfaction with SWAT 4 as I got with the toughest missions of Rogue Spear or Raven Shield, simply because R6 is so much more unforgiving.

In any case both series are great, and it's outright criminal that the genre is nowadays all but dead.
 

A user named cat

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Swat 4 is sooooo much better than all Rainbow Six games.
SWAT 4 is great, but in truth the games are very different. Rainbow Six is super twitchy (if you spend a split second thinking about whether to take a shot or not, you'll probably end up dead), and for the most part it revolves around killing everything. SWAT 4, on the other hand, is probably the least twitchy shooter of all time (my left-handed ex-girlfriend who had never played an FPS before and played SWAT 4 with a right-handed mouse could beat it with just a bit of help, because it's all about taking your time and choosing the right approach for each situation), as you'll generally want to avoid firing your guns as much as possible. In Rainbow Six you'll usually make a plan beforehand and then try to execute it to perfection (and try again and again until you get it right, which can take a good while with some missions), whereas in SWAT 4 you'll improvise on the fly based on what you see and hear. After a successful mission in Rainbow Six the ground is littered with corpses, whereas in SWAT 4 everyone's wearing zip-ties and at most is feeling a little sting from a bean bag or having a light headache from a flashbang.

All things considered SWAT 4 is probably the most realistic tactical shooter out there, fiilled with believeable scenarios whereas R6 has, you know, "Tom Clancy" written on it. On the other hand SWAT 4 is also much easier, often relying on its atmosphere and well-designed locations to create excitement, whereas R6 gets your adrenaline pumping simply because of how ruthless it is — if you get careless even for a second, a terrorist might wipe your entire squad out in a heartbeat. I never got the same satisfaction with SWAT 4 as I got with the toughest missions of Rogue Spear or Raven Shield, simply because R6 is so much more unforgiving.

In any case both series are great, and it's outright criminal that the genre is nowadays all but dead.
Granted I haven't played an R6 game in ages, probably not since around when Raven Shield was new but I don't believe Swat 4 is that easy. The AI can be quite unpredictable to the point where it almost seems like they're glitched, then soon as you know it, a teammate is down. Enemies will stand there as if about to surrender while you're shouting at them and have them pinned, then they'll randomly open fire. They're also pretty good at finding exit strategies once they're spotted and on the run. Maybe I'm just not pro enough at these kind of shooters but you're making it sound like a walk in the park. Maybe the early R6 games are that much tougher though, I really don't remember.

I'll agree though that while belonging to the same type of sub-genre of shooters, they are quite different. Swat 4 is just a fantastic game though and still fun to play.
 

Carrion

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Granted I haven't played an R6 game in ages, probably not since around when Raven Shield was new but I don't believe Swat 4 is that easy. The AI can be quite unpredictable to the point where it almost seems like they're glitched, then soon as you know it, a teammate is down. Enemies will stand there as if about to surrender while you're shouting at them and have them pinned, then they'll randomly open fire. They're also pretty good at finding exit strategies once they're spotted and on the run. Maybe I'm just not pro enough at these kind of shooters but you're making it sound like a walk in the park. Maybe the early R6 games are that much tougher though, I really don't remember.

I'll agree though that while belonging to the same type of sub-genre of shooters, they are quite different. Swat 4 is just a fantastic game though and still fun to play.
SWAT 4's not easy, per se, it's just easier than R6 which can be outright sadistic at times. It's true that you can easily fail a mission in SWAT if you're careless, and it's not uncommon for all your hard work to go to waste because of one little mistake. Patience is very important, and the AI can indeed do some clever stuff, which may cause some "oh shit!" moments when you storm a room and one enemy manages to slip away, for instance. Like the R6 games, SWAT 4 too can provide some nerve-wrecking moments, like when you're telling a stubborn enemy to put his gun down in a room full of smoke and hostages, knowing that you're supposed to capture him alive but being ready to pull the trigger in case he tries to pull some stupid shit off. The challenge often lies in preventing this kind of stuff from happening, like scouting each room beforehand, securing all the entrances and exits if possible, choosing the right approach with weapons and grenades, and so on. It's not a game where getting spotted by an enemy instantly results in getting a bullet straight between your eyes, though, like Rogue Spear is.
 

Silva

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Carrion analysis is spot on. I love SWAT but I feel it's a different kettle of fish than R6, even if they share some elements.

When I play R6 I take pleasure in the management of operators, and the planning, timing and coordination of multiple teams. I don't even play the action, as I just go with "commander" mode all the time.

Swat on the other hand, feels almost like a pure police simulator. You are there, taking hard decisions on the fly, while trying to avoid hurt people as much as possible. Its slower, more realistic, and totally awesome. In the end of the day, I still find R6 more fun, but Swat is a great game too.

By the way, is it just me who finds SWAT 3 better than 4 ?
 
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Rogue Spear was awesome. It was also very different from most, maybe all other shooters back then with its ultra realistic approach, one shot kills, serious and real world atmosphere, and having to plan things out. This was a time of run-and-gun shooters, so games like R6 and RS really stood out. However, RS was the last game in that series to be really important, in my opinion, as shortly after, Operation Flashpoint and its descendant ARMA games took over the mantle of kings of realistic shooters.
 

Silva

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PorkythePaladin, while I agree OFP and ARMA took the crown of mil-sim genre, I think both Rainbow Six and SWAT formulas bring experiences distinct enough from it (and themselves) to validate their continuous existence. Not only due their focus on CQC (instead of the far range engagements of OFP), but also due to the strategic/planning aspect of Rainbow and the police/security content of SWAT.

The game I think was really obviated by OFP / ARMA is the original Ghost Recon. (Sadly for me, because I also like GR)
 
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Carrion

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It was also very different from most, maybe all other shooters back then with its ultra realistic approach, one shot kills, serious and real world atmosphere, and having to plan things out.
In 1999 you also had Hidden & Dangerous, which was released a few months earlier, had all of those things, and probably was as important as Rogue Spear was, although personally I've always preferred the Rainbow Six games. Of that bunch the original Rainbow Six was the truly revolutionary game, of course, whereas Rogue Spear was more of a refinement of the formula.

Like Silva said, even though Flashpoint was probably the crowning achievement for tactical shooters, it was more of a large-scale military simulation with a very different approach compared to R6, SWAT or even H&D, which were all much more focused in their scope and attempted different things (R6 had the hostage rescue thing with terrorists and globetrotting, SWAT focused on realistic policework and H&D was a "behind enemy lines" type of a thing, whereas OFP could do everything from one-man commando missions to huge operations inclduing hundreds of units but was probably the most focused on infantry warfare). I think Ghost Recon also had its own thing going on, but it just wasn't as good as the Rainbow Six games were, and it was somewhat eclipsed by OFP's release as well. During those few years tactical shooters were a small but pretty damn glorious subgenre with multiple games deserving a classic status.
 
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I think we agree, because what I was trying to say is that in the Tom Clancy line of games, Rogue Spear was the last one that everybody loved. After that, games like Ghost Recon and Raven Shield were in the shadow of other, better games.
 

pippin

Guest
Rogue Spear made me feel true fear, men. Not a game for the faint of heart. Would like to see those faggots who easily rage at shitty games trying that one.
Also SWAT 3 is amazing, but it's not as complicated as Rogue Spear.
 

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