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Roguey vs the Grognards Thread

Lhynn

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Aug 28, 2013
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Sometimes always monster is an RPG that doesnt feature combat. Its not very good, but its unique.

Are you sure about that? In a sim you increase the skills of your character so you can solve problems in the world. If Sometimes Always Monster doesn't feature combat, just how does it differ from your average sim?
It doesnt feature stats either, just character development. You are defined by your actions, opinions, and relationships.
The start of the game is pretty good, quality does go down as the game progresses tho, to lead to a shit endgame.
 

drae

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Ah, well that will depend whether you think Choices and Consequences alone make an RPG or if it makes it an interactive story.
 

HiddenX

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Baldurs Gate is a successor of the (turn based combat) Goldbox games. It has only RTwP combat because Diablo was popular in 1998.
And Diablo is a travesty of a CRPG.
You realize that Baldur's Gate began development before Diablo was released and that Diablo was originally intended to be turn-based?


Matt Chat: Turn-Based Combat Making a Comeback?: About Damn Time


...
Baldur’s Gate was released a few days before Christmas in 1998. Significantly, Blizzard’s Diablo had been out for two years, shattering sales records and dramatically closing the gap between computer and console RPGs. Essentially, Diablo was an effort to make a Legend of Zelda style game for computer gaming adults, and it worked. Of course, it also helped that CRPGs as a whole had been declining, with mostly derivative titles that, for a variety of reasons, just didn’t capture the imagination the way the earlier Gold Box titles had. The few standouts, such as Fallout (1997), were saddled with “B-grade status” and improperly funded even by publishers who should have known better (Interplay, in this case).

Bioware naturally wanted to duplicate the success of Diablo, but recognized that the sophisticated rules of D&D just couldn’t be reduced to clicking a mouse on the bad guy and quaffing potions. The result was the kludge called RTwP, which tried to capture the “excitement” of Diablo but that would still let you pause the game at any time to pop open the hood and make adjustments.

Bioware was mostly successful with its compromised solution, though it’s debatable whether the game would have been worse off with a more traditional turn-based engine. I’d like to think that the game’s excellent production values and great story would have been enough to quell dissent that the game wasn’t enough like Diablo. In any case, I doubt any publisher would have been interested in a turn-based game anyway given that title’s success.

I think many gamers who were fans of the older turn-based style were probably put off by Baldur’s Gate RTwP. However, it really had been a long time since we had a CRPG with such excellent production values, and it was “good enough” to keep us playing–hey, at least it wasn’t Diablo. Eventually, once you got into the game, you quickly forgot (or were willing to overlook) how often RTwP combat can be painful, tedious, and awkward. Was getting to see some flashier spell animations really worth all this constant pausing and fighting with the AI?

In short, I don’t think turn-based combat is boring or tedious at all. Rather, it’s just that Diablo was so successful that publishers (and many gamers who hadn’t experienced anything else) were suddenly convinced that it was a throwback. That prevented the natural development we’d expect to see in interface and AI design. We’re just now finally starting to see what a modern CRPG with turn-based combat might look like, thanks mostly to X-Com and Shadowrun. However, neither of these games comes anywhere close to the raw passion and craft we got in Baldur’s Gate.

If anyone is in a position to update turn-based combat and make it fun again, it’s Torment’s developers. Fortunately, we are finally back to a position where gamers can and have overridden the publishers to get a new turn-based game that won’t suffer from lower production values. I, for one, am excited to see what the team eventually comes up with.
 
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Lhynn

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Ah, well that will depend whether you think Choices and Consequences alone make an RPG or if it makes it an interactive story.
well, it also has limited exploration, and item managment.
 

Athelas

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Why are you quoting a post full of speculation? Hard facts or gtfo.

And Fallout was less succesful than Baldur's Gate because the former had an unconventional setting and the latter had a fantasy setting bolstered by D&D's popularity. Not exactly rocket science. In 1997-1999, turn-based RPG's on consoles were immensely popular and even trendsetters for the entire gaming industry.
 

tuluse

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Serpent in the Staglands Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Shadorwun: Hong Kong
Most of that is wrong. Bioware made an RTS engine. Feargus Urquhart at Black Isle realized it could be re-purposed into an RPG. Even going over his bosses heads to pitch the idea. Most importantly Baldur's Gate *started* development before Diablo was released.
 

drae

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Most of that is wrong. Bioware made an RTS engine. Feargus Urquhart at Black Isle realized it could be re-purposed into an RPG. Even going over his bosses heads to pitch the idea. Most importantly Baldur's Gate *started* development before Diablo was released.

That's how I remember things also.
 

HiddenX

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Diablo release date: December 31, 1996
Baldur's Gate release date: December 21, 1998

2 fucking years lie in between - and you guys think the devs didn't realize the huge success of Diablo and didn't try to copy it? :naive:

I'm with Matt Barton this time.
 

Athelas

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Diablo release date: December 31, 1996
Baldur's Gate release date: December 21, 1998

2 fucking years lie in between - and you guys think the devs didn't realize the huge success of Diablo and didn't try to copy it? :naive:
There was an attempt to copy it, or at least ride on its coattails - by Black Isle. I believe Icewind Dale was marketed as a Diablo competitor. But Baldur's Gate - which had a development time of three years - wasn't it.
 

Immortal

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Diablo release date: December 31, 1996
Baldur's Gate release date: December 21, 1998

2 fucking years lie in between - and you guys think the devs didn't realize the huge success of Diablo and didn't try to copy it? :naive:

I'm with Matt Barton this time.

If your gonna quote Matt Chats.. you should watch the one with Feargus where he explains the real story behind Baldurs Gate.. Surprise Ending.. Diablo isn't mentioned once.
 

Roguey

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lol @ the hitscan apologists itt

http://terminusest13.tumblr.com/pos...t-you-like-strife-or-blood-im-not-saying-this
I don’t like hitscans for enemies.
I recently wrote a gigantic post on the gameplay/realism difference between projectiles and hitscans, but the short of the matter is that the key feature of 90s FPSes is mobility as an active form of defense. Get out of the way of the line of fire, return fire with your own weapons. In the end, the player should die only because they messed up, not because the game sprang up something unavoidable on them. Hitscans run completely against this, deciding whether you get hit entirely based on random chance, rather than because you slipped up a dodge or forgot about an errant rocket or ran into a room with no cover.

Games like Doom either had hitscanners as unbelievably weak (30 HP for shotgun guys means it could take only two pistol shots), or games like Duke had them as a rarity (Enforcers/Battlelords are not terribly common enemies).
Strife and Blood, on the other hand, has them constantly. In Blood’s case, medium-and-up difficulty gives them a nasty additional weapon of dynamite—even if you hide behind a gravestone in order to try and block them, they can flush you out. Strife, on the other hand, makes up for them with additional types of hitscanners such as turrets and Maulers!

What makes the hitscan enemies in Blood particularly annoying is their lightning-fast reflexes. They fire the SPLIT-SECOND they spot you and there’s nothing you can do almost all of the time. Doesn’t help also that they’re accurate as a motherfucker.

"This is good difficulty"--something shooter grogs actually believe
 

Immortal

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lol @ the hitscan apologists itt

http://terminusest13.tumblr.com/pos...t-you-like-strife-or-blood-im-not-saying-this
I don’t like hitscans for enemies.
I recently wrote a gigantic post on the gameplay/realism difference between projectiles and hitscans, but the short of the matter is that the key feature of 90s FPSes is mobility as an active form of defense. Get out of the way of the line of fire, return fire with your own weapons. In the end, the player should die only because they messed up, not because the game sprang up something unavoidable on them. Hitscans run completely against this, deciding whether you get hit entirely based on random chance, rather than because you slipped up a dodge or forgot about an errant rocket or ran into a room with no cover.

Games like Doom either had hitscanners as unbelievably weak (30 HP for shotgun guys means it could take only two pistol shots), or games like Duke had them as a rarity (Enforcers/Battlelords are not terribly common enemies).
Strife and Blood, on the other hand, has them constantly. In Blood’s case, medium-and-up difficulty gives them a nasty additional weapon of dynamite—even if you hide behind a gravestone in order to try and block them, they can flush you out. Strife, on the other hand, makes up for them with additional types of hitscanners such as turrets and Maulers!

What makes the hitscan enemies in Blood particularly annoying is their lightning-fast reflexes. They fire the SPLIT-SECOND they spot you and there’s nothing you can do almost all of the time. Doesn’t help also that they’re accurate as a motherfucker.

"This is good difficulty"--something shooter grogs actually believe

I'm still waiting for your reply.. I haven't slept for days.. Just jamming the F5 key in this thread..
 

HiddenX

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If your gonna quote Matt Chats.. you should watch the one with Feargus where he explains the real story behind Baldurs Gate.. Surprise Ending.. Diablo isn't mentioned once.

I agree with this quote from Matt, regardless if Baldur's Gate RTwP comes from Diablo, an RTS or from somewhere else:

Eventually, once you got into the game, you quickly forgot (or were willing to overlook) how often RTwP combat can be painful, tedious, and awkward.
Was getting to see some flashier spell animations really worth all this constant pausing and fighting with the AI?
 

Roguey

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Ex-Bioware Austin-developed turn-based crap got slammed by JES :yeah:

Josh said:
some guy said:
some weirdo said:
The thing is, video games are already quite good at grid-based shenanigans. My obsessions right now are The Banner Saga, Invisible, Inc. and Crypt of the Necrodancer, all of which are phenomenal bits of gridutainment. And while a neat thing about pen and paper games is that players can run them however they want, the rules are always going to steer you. One of my favourite indie roleplaying games gives players a secret power they can only use when having sex for that exact reason—to encourage romantic entanglements.
because I really want to sit around a table or at my computer in roll20 encouraging my players to roleplay sucking and fucking each other. That sounds like a worthwhile saturday evening
also, banner saga's combat isn't particularly great.

Though to its credit he did sink a bit more time into it than D:OS and Wasteland 2 which were rightly abandoned after less than an hour.
 

Lujo

Augur
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Mar 3, 2014
Messages
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Well, mentioning Diablo or not, RPGs as such were taken over by... well, stuff from other genres, with not too many key aspects of an RPG. And it's been like that for a decade, and it's gone so far that the term RPG has been missaplied more often than not. Role playing game =/= developing a character as a better combatant. Shooters do the exact same thing and you'd never call Doom an RPG. And the qoute is pretty accurate, BG got off on the wings of graphical presentation / revolution, not gameplay. So did diablo, mind you, it was just a very simple, mouse controlled beat-them-up with a powerup and inventory system simmilar to what an RPG would have.

As for whether you can or can't make an RPG without combat, you probably can't, the question is how much of a role in character development and story progression does combat actually pose. Or even how much of the gameplay itself IS combat, how many situations are resolved by it, how many rewards are related to it... Combat is present in a ton of gaming genres, role playing a specialist combatant is what you do in vay more games than RPGs. I love a good TB combat system (not much of a twitch man myself, allthough I did do AvP 1 at all difficulties as a child), but i preffer if combat just a part of what happens in a game rather than the be-all end-all point of it.

I mean, I wouldn't have minded a better combat system in the original fallouts or planescape torment, and I did enjoy Vampire the Masquerade even though it was a 1st person real time combat RPG, but an RPG has more than one component and the best remembered and loved ones are often loved despite their combat mechanics. In spite of them.
 

Roguey

Codex Staff
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Roguey you should put the citations of these quotes in your posts so we can read them too..
YCS is closed to non-members. I never make stuff up though, plus Infi and CB also have accounts so they could fact check me if I ever say paste anything truly outrageous.
 

Volrath

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Ex-Bioware Austin-developed turn-based crap got slammed by JES :yeah:

Josh said:
some guy said:
some weirdo said:
The thing is, video games are already quite good at grid-based shenanigans. My obsessions right now are The Banner Saga, Invisible, Inc. and Crypt of the Necrodancer, all of which are phenomenal bits of gridutainment. And while a neat thing about pen and paper games is that players can run them however they want, the rules are always going to steer you. One of my favourite indie roleplaying games gives players a secret power they can only use when having sex for that exact reason—to encourage romantic entanglements.
because I really want to sit around a table or at my computer in roll20 encouraging my players to roleplay sucking and fucking each other. That sounds like a worthwhile saturday evening
also, banner saga's combat isn't particularly great.

Though to its credit he did sink a bit more time into it than D:OS and Wasteland 2 which were rightly abandoned after less than an hour.
Tell me Roguey. Why does Sawyer hate cRPG's?
 

NotAGolfer

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He's just a hipster is all.
Hipsters love to hate everything that's popular.
And TB CRPGs are popular now aren't they? :incline:
 

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