Roguey vs the Grognards Thread

[drae]

Why does Sawyer hate cRPG's?

Because he defines an RPG as an interactive story.

 

[Roguey]

Role playing is the interactive story. There needs to be a game to go along with it.

Tell me Roguey. Why does Sawyer hate cRPG's?

http://new.spring.me/#!/JESawyer/q/181603020847480875

A lot of RPG mechanics continue to be reproduced in games due to grumpy inertia. "This is how RPGs have done things, therefore RPGs should do things this way forever."

If a mechanic makes the game extremely irritating or generally un-fun, designers need to investigate ways in which it can be made better. N.B.: irritation and frustration are GOOD things in game design when they come in small doses. The irritation and frustration often accompany difficulty, and overcoming that difficulty produces satisfaction. If you never experience any irritation or frustration, the game is so simple or easy that it demands nothing of you.

Link from my sig:

Basically I think that most designers are overly concerned with what's come before when they sit down to write CRPG mechanics. When looking at mechanics that typically go into CRPGs, it's pretty hard to reverse-engineer a plan of intent. The conclusion I'm usually left with is that they wanted the system to "look like an RPG" on a UI screen. They have classes and stats and skills and skill/talent trees and a ton of derived stats when probably not all of that is necessary.

I believe that game designers, whether working in the RPG genre or otherwise, should establish what they want the player to be doing within the world. That is, they must ask themselves what they want the core activities of the player to be. Within those activities, the designer can find ways to allow growth over time in a variety of ways. How they want that growth to occur and what sort of choices they want to force the player to make -- that's what should drive the design of the advancement/RPG system.

Instead it usually seems like most designers sit down and say, "Well what are the ability scores going to be?"

Additionally he's not the only one. From YCS:

this is just making me want to reinstall new vegas

any science fiction rpg i basically just want a reskin of the new vegas system/balance. its the best.

Best of a bad bunch sure, but there are so many ways to improve it.

 

[drae]

Role playing is the interactive story. There needs to be a game to go along with it.

My apologies.

Why does Sawyer hate cRPG's?

Because Sawyer defines an RPG as any game whose focus is delivering an interactive story.

 

[Roguey]

Still not quite accurate.
http://new.spring.me/#!/JESawyer/q/1781222250

What is more important in an RPG: real choices with real consequences, or engaging, fun gameplay?

Engaging, fun game play should be the bare minimum expected in any game. If you're making an RPG, it should have that AND the ability to define/express a character's personality in a way that significantly changes the development of the story.

http://new.spring.me/#!/JESawyer/q/660034169

Which do you believe is a more important factor in creating a good game: having a strong story and dialogue, or having strong gameplay?

Having strong game play. I think when Lord Gamerson invented games, the best thing he did was put the word "game" in the term "game play".

 

[drae]

If the central narrative is meaningfully interactive, I would classify it as an RPG. That is, I consider interactive storytelling to be the primary defining characteristic of RPGs.

So he believes good gameplay is critically important to a good game but not necessarily a good RPG, and interactive storytelling to be the defining characteristic of an RPG.

 

[FeelTheRads]

Still not quite accurate.

It's lovely when you say something and then post quotes that prove the exact opposite.

 

[Roguey]

So he believes good gameplay is critically important to a good game but not necessarily a good RPG,

See the second quote in my sig.

 

[Athelas]

So he believes good gameplay is critically important to a good game but not necessarily a good RPG

A role-playing game is by definition a game.

 

[drae]

See the second quote in my sig.

Talking about what he considers to be a key mechanic of most games in a genre is different to what he considers to be the critical component of the genre. He considers any game with interactive storytelling to be an RPG, but he concedes that most RPGs do tend to focus on combat. Because he's so out of kilter with the opinions of the rest of the RPG community he cannot enjoy a lot of what the RPG community makes because to him the priorities are wrong... we shall see if it's vice versa.

 

[FeelTheRads]

Therefore the new definition of RPG is "any game with good and fun combat and interactive storytelling".
Finally it has been solved!

 

[Duraframe300]

He considers any game with interactive storytelling to be an RPG

He does?

 

[Volrath]

Still not quite accurate.
http://new.spring.me/#!/JESawyer/q/1781222250

What is more important in an RPG: real choices with real consequences, or engaging, fun gameplay?

Engaging, fun game play should be the bare minimum expected in any game. If you're making an RPG, it should have that AND the ability to define/express a character's personality in a way that significantly changes the development of the story.

http://new.spring.me/#!/JESawyer/q/660034169

Which do you believe is a more important factor in creating a good game: having a strong story and dialogue, or having strong gameplay?

Having strong game play. I think when Lord Gamerson invented games, the best thing he did was put the word "game" in the term "game play".

Heh. It's not surprising he holds such shit games like Oblivion and Skyrim in such high regard then. Not to mention MOBAs.

I respect Sawyer for arguing his strong beliefs. But to be fair... the guy is a complete and utter fucking moron.

 

[Duraframe300]

He considers any game with interactive storytelling to be an RPG

He does?

Expanding on that doesn't he have the opinion that a modern rpg should have interactive storytelling as well as other elements that make the gerne? Not that storytelling is the only important thing like you seem to assume? At least thats what I got out of that Wizardry quote and this

What in your opinion are the key moments in RPG genre that defined the direction all the games made after?

Without a doubt, the existence of tabletop RPGs like Dungeons & Dragons defined the paradigm for what RPGs were in the early days. For me, Bard's Tale, Wizardry, and Ultima were the "big ones" that shaped my experiences. The "Gold Box" games (Pool of Radiance, Curse of the Azure Bonds, et al.) were the next wave. In the years that followed, the new real-time games like Darklands, Eye of the Beholder, Ultima Underworld, and TES: Arena really expanded what RPGs could be.

After that, I think Fallout and Baldur's Gate marked the renaissance of RPGs in the late 90s. I feel that Fallout and Planescape: Torment established a great standard for player reactivity. That's the environment I came into when I started at Black Isle.

 

[drae]

He does?

If the central narrative is meaningfully interactive, I would classify it as an RPG. That is, I consider interactive storytelling to be the primary defining characteristic of RPGs.

http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/User_...s_about_Strength_requirements_and_defines_RPG
http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/index.php?threads/sawyer-formspring-q-a.45174/

Yes, it seems he does.

 

[TheGreatOne]

So he believes good gameplay is critically important to a good game but not necessarily a good RPG,

See the second quote in my sig.

Those are empty words, he doesn't actually mean what he's saying. JES talking about gameplay is like Cleve saying that gamers should promote and celebrate minorities and women more in game development to make more the medium more accessible and enrich it with new perspectives and ideas.

 

[Athelas]

http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/User_...s_about_Strength_requirements_and_defines_RPG

It's hilarious how the person asking these questions gets gradually more butthurt while Sawyer continues to calmly answer.

 

[Immortal]

http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/User_...s_about_Strength_requirements_and_defines_RPG

It's hilarious how the person asking these questions gets gradually more butthurt while Sawyer continues to calmly answer.

\"WHAT THE HELL IS THIS RHETORIC"


Is it the same author? This doesn't seem to be an interview but just replies to forum posts? Can someone confirm?

 

[drae]

Obsidian's Josh Sawyer has a Formspring (a website where people can post anonymous questions),

Not an interview.

 

[Immortal]

Obsidian's Josh Sawyer has a Formspring (a website where people can post anonymous questions),

Not an interview.

Right.. but the person that is supposedly getting angrier and angrier.. is that one poster or just Josh dipping in and out of the same thread replying to different people..

 

[drae]

Oh, right. I don't know but I assume it's different people merely because the style of questioning is all over the shop.

 

[Immortal]

Oh, right. I don't know but I assume it's different people merely because the style of questioning is all over the shop.

I thought so too.. which ruins the vision I had of this one guy getting more and more pissed as Josh just maintains this emotionless tone answering this guys questions point blank.

 

[xxxCatholicKillahxxx]

Poor unfortunate souls: Tell me about JES! Why does he make cRPGs? Not a lot of royalties, for a glorified modder!

???: Or perhaps he's wondering why someone would back a game, before knowing the lead designer is sane?

Pus: At least you can talk. Who are you?

???: It doesn't matter who we are, what matters is our scam.

[the Kickstarter ends]

JES: No one cared who I was until I talked about balance.
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0318821/?ref_=tt_trv_qu
Pus: If I pulled your head out of your ass, would you die?

JES: It would be extremely painful.

Pus: You're a big guy!

JES: For you.

Pus: Was making a IE successor part of your plan?

JES: Of course...not. Publishers refused our pitch in favor of TES: Northern Arabs, we had to find another way of funding.

EA: Hiking! I said hiking!

Pus: Well, congratulations! You got POE funded! Now what's the next step in your master plan?

JES: Realtime with pause... with no combat xp!

 

[Turrul]

Oh, right. I don't know but I assume it's different people merely because the style of questioning is all over the shop.

I thought so too.. which ruins the vision I had of this one guy getting more and more pissed as Josh just maintains this emotionless tone answering this guys questions point blank.

Maybe he managed to piss off all the forum posters collectively with his answers while they kept getting angrier .
at least that is the impression I get when I read it.

 

[Volourn]

Sawyer doesn't like WL2? I'm not surprised. It's a TRUE RPG. He hates that genre.

 

[Chaotic_Heretic]

I hate Josh and RTwP but WL2 is shit... we;ll not as shitty as P:E but still.