Rolling Vs Point-Buying

[Alex]

They still can work, if the player is willing to have some discipline. In particular, it can work really well in roguelikes.

The problem is that if you have discipline you don't know if the developer expected you to reroll like everyone else and the game is unwinnable because of your gimp party. Roguelikes are different story.

If the game seems too difficult, try again with a different party.

 

[Excidium II]

That's how I abandon games. I generally study the game and plan beforehand to avoid having to restart.

 

[Lhynn]

I usually do a test run till about 1/4 of the way, then restart with a well put together character.

 

[Zombra]

I usually do a test run till about 1/4 of the way, then restart with a well put together character.

Approve. Somehow RPG gameplay never turns out the way you would think from the descriptions and implications in character generation.

 

[Anac'raxus]

They still can work, if the player is willing to have some discipline.

You could always force a long un-skippable cut-scene each time a player rolls for ability scores if you want to punish power gaming. That's kind of why I want a hybrid, as others have already noted pure point buy leads to flavorless archetype clones and unlimited re-rolling leads to autism.

 

[Ranselknulf]

Hybrid system.

Stats get auto increased / decreased each level, but you also get a few points to allocate each level.

 

[Excidium II]

Awful.

 

[InD_ImaginE]

Re-rolling is good........ if the number of status points are equal to what they would be in point buys system (e.g. max 60 points all across the board).
Otherwise it is just a gimmick from PnP that should be incarcerated when the first digital RPG, console and PC, came around.

 

[Daemongar]

Diablo III - you can't select or modify your stats. So, it's not roll or point buy. Points are static. Not too difficult... and then we go to...

Wrong.

Skyrim - stats? Are you arguing that magika, stamina, and whatever are stats? Can you select them or modify them at start up or are they static?

The fact that you can't modify them at the start doesn't mean they're not stats (you can modify them anyway, just not directly, some races get more stats)

Oh, oh, I get it. In a thread about rolling v. point buy, you are jumping on skill increases, you know, stats, not ability scores. Hur. Very clever.

 

[mutonizer]

As you all know ToEE supports both systems and therein lies the problem. I rolled several characters and got very good stats (18, 16, 16, 14, 12, 10) in about 10-15 rolls. Somehow it felt like cheating, so I used PB system to make my party. In comparison, I got 16, 10, 14, 13, 10, 8 which is kinda like playing Fallout without Gifted: you feel right for not exploiting the perk, but wonder if you missed out on something because your stats weren't high enough. Any opinions and personal experiences?

Always went PB when I could because I always first have ideas for a character, then create it. Also liked being able to have as many points as I want (inviso drag/roll/pb thing) and be allowed to not spend them all so I can tailor chars exactly how I want them, flaws and all. It being ToEE though, you gotta plan shit way ahead for feats and whatnot, put that metagame in early.
Rolling just makes this the other way around, where you're presented a limited random choice, and have to do something with it. I find this concept too limiting for my brain and quite boring unless it's some kind of crazy roguelike and shit. No good for a game like ToEE

 

[Delterius]

They still can work, if the player is willing to have some discipline. In particular, it can work really well in roguelikes.

Rerolling for 12 hours is disciplined.

 

[TigerKnee]

Speaking of Roguelikes -

Angband variants have "auto-rollers" where you can set minimum stats (with the program displaying the percentage of achieving such rolls) and the program will roll a huge number of times and take the first applicable set. It ends up being like Point Buy with variance because even a CPU probably wouldn't be able to roll a full set of 18 + 18/00 Str in all stats in a lifetime.

Incursion: Halls of the Goblin King rolls random Perks to go along with stats - it doesn't have stat swapping after roll either and there's a bunch of rule changes that makes it so that the dump stats aren't as obvious as regular D&D 3.5E so trying to achieve a roll that combines both good stats and perks is a miracle waiting to happen which encourages you to just use your best judgement on which stat set looks good.

 

[Ovplain]

Point buying, for sure. Replaying BG1 now and when starting that I just kept rolling 'til I got like a 94 or sommat.

 

[Ultra]

Rolling. Having never played a proper PnP RPG (other than MB's HeroQuest natch) or had a D&D group or however that works, I'm not a cynical burn out haunted by some time I rolled a 9 in constitution and couldn't make my paladin with edgy original content do not steal backstory, or whatever is it that happens to people that makes them want to COMPLETELY ELIMINATE all rng, fun and flavor from char creation.
Unfortunately I don't get to do it my way in cRPGs either because it seems my side lost that argument at some point but when I play TOEE I always enjoy it, and to an extent, other games like Wizardry have bonus pools and such.

I'm not a zealot though and somewhere (maybe the codex) I've read that people had house rules that allowed finite re-rolls and rolling then assigning values (less a fan of the latter but it's still better than point buy) which are OK.

Pretty cool to see there's still a debate to be had. Any other forum I've seen talk about this (not many admittedly but still) rolling is laughed about and dismissed like some kind of foolish primitive idea and it actually always sounded kind of fun to me.

 

[DraQ]

If the game doesn't do something stupid, like letting you reassign individual points freely, rerolling can only help you so much with any realistic time investment. Sure, you can quite easily reroll character with max or close to max primary stat for the class you're planning, but they will have quirks that don't have much impact on overall archetype, but would have been ironed out as waste of extra points or deficiencies in secondary stats in point-buy.

That's wrong though, just look at the OP. 18/16/16/14/12/10, that's a 50 point buy, and you can get stuff like that in under 30 rolls most of the time, about a minute of rolling. A regular stat block looks like 16/14/13/12/8/8. Tell me how the first is somehow more 'quirky' than point buy? Sure, you can get some odd numbers, but they are functionally irrelevant other than looking different on the stat block.

Here's the first 10 rolls I got:
18/14/13/13/11/10
17/17/15/13/12/9
17/17/13/13/12/10
16/15/15/13/10/4
15/15/13/12/10/10
15/15/13/12/11/8
15/14/13/11/10/9
15/14/14/11/9/8
14/14/13/12/12/12
13/13/12/12/10/10

The only roll I would consider quirky is the /4 roll, but the change is irrelevant if its a warrior's CHA or something since its a total dump stat in ToEE (PnP doesn't have this problem, a warrior can take part in social settings and make use of a charisma stat). 7 of these are at or above what a point buy would get you, and I'd consider the first 4 to be quite overpowered if the game is balanced for a 25 point buy.

On my 13th roll I got:

18/17/16/16/16/8

Haha holy shit that's OP. That's like a 60 point buy or something.

Two points:

• If you can't reassign most results between stats then the size of the total pool rolled means less - for example you rolled up an atypically strong and charismatic wizard - yay?
• Avoiding sums beyond particular range in a roll-based system in a cRPG would be trivial:
  1. Roll for stats in traditional way
  2. calculate stat sum
  3. if sum falls beyond predefined range calculate difference between it and appropriate bound
  4. keep subtracting (or adding) points from randomly chosen stats (that are themselves in acceptable range) while decrementing the difference as long as the difference is not zero.
  5. display end result to the player
  You could even have such system interface with falloutesque traits, allowing for making particularly gifted characters (range moved up at the cost of some penalties), or runts (range shifted down), or adjust the range on adventure basis based on assumptions story makes about protagonist(s).

Also, cRPG context. It's GRPGD, not Gazebo.

But table top RPGs is where it originated.

Yeah, so?

Do you think that it implies that inside a computer there are computer pixies rolling around miniature "cheap, and only vaguely cubical plastic dice"?

Using P&P rules for a CRPG is stupid. (...) Don't just use P&P mechanics straight up and assume it will be fine, because the two environments are very different and require different systems to make them actually fun. What's good for the goose is not always etc.

Generally I would agree, but I still think there is merit in this particular mechanics in cRPGs.

If you want random power variance in your CRPG to make PCs more varied and interesting, start the game with characters at a low baseline and then give them random (but seeded) gains as they level up.

That too IF we're speaking of the kind of stats that increase.

Why would you give me partial credit for Diablo 3 but not skyrim when skyrim's stat distribution gives the player a lot more control than Diablo 3?

BTW, the word you're looking for is "attributes", not "stats". Skills are stats, as are perks and attributes. Skyrim has plenty of skills and perks even if the attribute system is lackluster.

I really hate brofisting Mastermind's posts. It makes me feel all icky inside.

Point buying, for sure. Replaying BG1 now and when starting that I just kept rolling 'til I got like a 94 or sommat.

BG's case is deeply pathological, though.

 

[Alex]

They still can work, if the player is willing to have some discipline. In particular, it can work really well in roguelikes.

Rerolling for 12 hours is disciplined.

If that is what the player wants to do, let him.

 

[laclongquan]

:facepalm: I have no word for that kind of autistic players. If I have to reroll 100 times to get a better spread point, might as well save myself that trouble and hack it in~

The way I see it, reroll is just a marketing gimmick devs use to lure those pnp players in. It's not good for anybody else. Fact: I am not and never has been a pnp player and I find that mechanic is slightly retard. I dont think I am unique in that regard. Reroll is lLike grinding in jrpg, but not fun beyond the first ten minutes.

 

[Zombra]

They still can work, if the player is willing to have some discipline. In particular, it can work really well in roguelikes.

Rerolling for 12 hours is disciplined.

If that is what the player wants to do, let him.

Nobody "wants to" do that. Nobody ever felt great about pushing a button for hours on end. Nobody called up their friends crying, "You HAVE to play this! At the start, you get to click a small button for a long time!" They want to start the game with a good character, that's all. Just give them one. Put the randomness in the game itself.

There are all kinds of ways to satisfy the gambling and "winning" urges using actual gameplay. The reroll button is a garbage element and it's a garbage way to start off a game.

 

[Alex]

They still can work, if the player is willing to have some discipline. In particular, it can work really well in roguelikes.

Rerolling for 12 hours is disciplined.

If that is what the player wants to do, let him.

Nobody "wants to" do that. Nobody ever felt great about pushing a button for hours on end. Nobody called up their friends crying, "You HAVE to play this! At the start, you get to click a small button for a long time!" They want to start the game with a good character, that's all. Just give them one. Put the randomness in the game itself.

There are all kinds of ways to satisfy the gambling and "winning" urges using actual gameplay. The reroll button is a garbage element and it's a garbage way to start off a game.

It isn't rocket science. If you add random elements to character generation, add in opportunities to make characters with high and low rolls unique. Like Fallout's low int dialogue. Then let the player play however he wants. If the player can't help but keep rerolling until he gets a really good roll, then that game might not be the best for him. But designing your game around the assumption that the player can't help but cheat is just a sure way to spoil your game.

Edit: I just realized the way I phrased this might be taken as a way to call posters who don't agree with me idiots. That isn't what I had in mind at all, sorry about that. By "It isn't rocket science", I mean that there isn't some complicated and hard to understand reason to use stat rolls. It is simply the fun of playing a random character. I meant this as opposed, for instance, to the way random characters are supposed to work in D&D campaigns, where things are a bit more nuanced. Anyway, apologies if I sounded bellicose.

 

[InD_ImaginE]

But why bother designing your game based on system where the player could cheat at all?

 

[Alchemist]

Using P&P rules for a CRPG is stupid.
...
Don't just use P&P mechanics straight up and assume it will be fine, because the two environments are very different and require different systems to make them actually fun.

The first part is a ridiculous blanket statement I flat out can't agree with. Because generally speaking, the more CRPG's diverged from their PnP roots, the more shit they've become.

The second part - yeah, to some extent you've got to pick and choose what you use as appropriate for the medium. Rules that require a DM's adjudication and on-the-fly thinking to work generally won't translate well to a CRPG. Unless one codes a complex and convincing DM AI, which I perceive as a holy grail of CRPGs that has yet to be attained.

 

[Damned Registrations]

I think I'd prefer point buy if I only planned on playing the one character, but rolling is more fun in the long run if you are going to end up playing a bunch of characters anyways. Point buy is going to be reasonably balanced, so you won't have a game ruined by being too weak or strong, and you'll have the option to play whatever you want to play most. If you can play a bunch of characters, eventually the dice will give you whatever you wanted anyways.

Though I'd also stick with point buy for games with a long build up phase before the real challenge starts. Most roguelikes, for example, I wouldn't want to waste the first 4 hours of the game gearing up a character and fighting rats or whatever just to get screwed in the midgame because I didn't roll enough Con to avoid being one-shot by dragons when they show up.

 

[mutonizer]

But why bother designing your game based on system where the player could cheat at all?

You're assuming that most people, simply because they can cheat, do...
In single player games (obviously not anything with competitive MP in it), you don't need to prevent cheating or anything like that as it doesn't matter if someone wants to cheat. If some random dude comes around and tells you that he found some way to make infinite gold by duping something and whatnot, just tell him: "good for you!" If he complains you're not fixing it, just go: "just don't do it fucking retard". Who gives a fuck. Even if you ironed EVERYTHING, any moron can just find some memory hack, make a save editor and whatnot. What you gonna do then? FORCE your single player game to be ran only server side ala mmo? Wtf?

So just ignore it completely. Cheating does NOT matter whatsoever in single player.

PoE is also pefect example of failure to comprehend, with for example the Resting system. They "fixed" something I never had any issue with for any game whatsoever with something that's fucking boring and totally arbitrary just to prevent people from "abusing" it, something I never fucking did anyway! Kudos!

Using P&P rules for a CRPG is stupid.

They usually have the advantage of actually working since they've been in use for years by thousands and thousands of players all over the world.
Making your own system is insanely hard, time consuming and usually end up in complete clusterfucks as soon as you try to make it past the very simple stuff (ie: PoE).

 

[skyst]

Neither system is ideal.

In games like BG, I generally reroll over and over until I get ~90+. I just can't play without doing that. Then I put it on the hardest difficulty and bitch about how easy the game is. Go figure. D&D-based games with point buy is okay with me because of my familiarity with the system, I can make an effective character easily and quickly. Then we have games with new systems, WL2 or PoE for instance, where the point buy system or stats in general are flawed and certain builds that should make sense and should be effective are just hideously sub par compared so some moronic min/max build or by using stats which have effects that are not so obvious - this almost always leads to me rerolling 1/4 way through the game.

When playing pencil and paper, I actually prefer rolling for stats since I can force my players to make their roll at the table and keep the result. We always get the best characters this way. When I allow point buy, we always get 2 decent characters, 1 useless "12-14 everything" character and 1 guy that spent the whole week on forums and is a glass cannon min/maxed to the point of doing one thing insanely well and can't do anything else at all.

 

[animlboogy]

Rolling is the way to go to have a fun run through the game. Point buy is a nice way to make sure you don't end up with a character the developers didn't bother accounting for.

For tabletop, always, always, always rolling. The DM can punish or reward you for having a weird-ass character accordingly.