Incline RPG Codex Certified master pieces of gaming?

[JarlFrank]

There has yet to be a game yet with gameplay that's "art" worthy and there likely won't ever be one

Why not? There are games that have gameplay that would put them at the top of their genre, that should be enough.

Gameplay is typically not compatible with art concepts.

If a game is fun, it's not going to be provoking deep philosophical thoughts.

If the game is provoking deep philosophical thoughts, it's gameplay is usually limited or shit.

Level design and environmental storytelling is art, too. Art doesn't always have to provoke deep thoughts.

Thief is art.
Deus Ex is art.

They're both better art than those modern walking sims without gameplay that try to be deep.

 

[Sigourn]

People, when I say "works of art", I really meant to say "games that stand out above the rest".

This is why I gave the Thief and Vagrant Story examples. They are really really really good games, back when they were released, and even today, but not only that, since a lot of craftsmanship went into designing them and it shows.

 

[Kev Inkline]

People, when I say "works of art", I really meant to say "games that stand out above the rest".

And I am saying that DF is literally piece of art, generative art.

 

[octavius]

OK, I'll bite.

Chaos Strikes Back
Ultima Underworld
Master of Orion
Thief: The Dark Project
HoMM 3

 

[<3sRichardSimmons]

Non-RPGs?

King of Dragon Pass

Tie Fighter

Freedom Force (some might call it an RPG, but if you want to split hairs I would call it a rtwp tactical game).

Monkey Island II

XCOM

That's all I've got.

 

[Mr. Pink]

please don't turn this into a hurr durr gaems are/arent art thing.

I consider these games to be perfect for what they are. Maybe not the best ever, or even the best in their genre, but as a standard of what games should be. I can't remember every great game I've played but these are the ones that I remember right now. I'm going to omit those that other people have said.

Hotline Miami
I just don't really have anything negative to say about this game. It's simple, fun and stylish. Something about it is very hypnotic. The first time I played it, I played through the whole thing in one sitting, in some kind of murder-trance. Rare to find games like that.
Warcraft 3
The plot is a bit dumb but the game itself (and it's map creator) is excellent. It still has a strong following despite being 14 years old. There are better RTS out there, but the multiplayer and custom games make it way more than just a goofy campaign RTS.
Cave Story
The best PC side scroller ever made (although la mulana is close). Every indie dev trying to make a retro sidescroller on PC should just quit.
Counter-strike 1.6
You may not like CS, but CS is like sharks. sharks haven't changed in 100 million years because they don't need to. CS is one of the oldest competitive multiplayer games, yet the general ruleset and game play mechanics haven't changed much. I feel like the longevity of the game is testament to how well thought out it is. The game has a much deeper level of strategy than other FPS, and at a high level, is similar to chess. The weapons are very lethal and long range, and the movement is slow but precise, so teamwork and positioning is far more important than reflexes.
Ikaruga
I just like Ikaruga. There's nothing like it. wonderful art and music too. This is the shmup I replay the most.
Chronicles of Riddick, Assault on Dark Athena
Just a solid well made game. Vin Diesel is .
Civilization 4
I actually don't really think civ4 is that good, but it's still the best in that specific genre of historical 4x. Great mods too.
FEAR
My favorite single player fps ever. I don't think it's been topped.
Ryu ga Gotoku 5 (Yakuza)
Have you ever wanted to curb stomp gangsters and eat at a gyuudon stand with your suit still covered in blood? The whole series is great, but 5 stands out to me as the best open world beat-em-up ever.
Alpha Centauri
How the hell did nobody mention this yet. You all should be ashamed.
Railroad Tycoon & Rollercoaster Tycoon
I feel like the whole Tycoon/management sim genre is where PC as a platform shined the most. Looking at spreadsheets and placing water fountains has never been so fun. RIP MicroProse

edit:
Tribes 2/Vengeance
Highest skill cap of any shooter ever.

 

[Cyberarmy]

Dragon Age Origins!

Spoiler

 

[SniperHF]

Probably Daredevil Donut Lad

 

[anvi]

I never see games that amaze me. Even if they are really good, there is always something glaringly obvious to me that they screwed up on or missed out. The only exceptions I can think of are System Shock and to some extent System Shock 2, and Arma3 more or less. Baldur's Gate 2 I would include as well, I think it leaves a lot to be desired but considering when it was made and what kind of budget they had back then, I think it deserves the credit. With that age and budget thing in mind I would also include the original Dune, Betrayal at Krondor, Gunship 2000, Indiana Jones and the Fate of Atlantis, Midwinter 1, Stunt Island, and maybe Moonstone: A Hard Days Knight.

And of course Tetris. Also Mario, Mario Kart, and a few other console games I don't know much about.

 

[Kev Inkline]

With that age and budget thing in mind I would also include the original Dune, Betrayal at Krondor, Gunship 2000, Indiana Jones and the Fate of Atlantis, Midwinter 1, Stunt Island, and maybe Moonstone: A Hard Days Knight.
.

I think oroginal Carrier Command belongs to that list, it was awesome.

 

[anvi]

I never played that one I never heard about it at the time. I more recently played the remake which was ok but I can only imagine how good the original must have been way back then.

 

[Azrael the cat]

Thing is, I can see some games as 'game as art'. That's largely a product of my mid/late 20s - it's an era where I've just quit my 'top graduate' law-job, am, pretentious as fuck, and then got a run of games like Deus Ex, Torment, System Shock. I turn back to my teenage years and recall A Mind Forever Wandering, and (later) I have no mouth but I must scream.

Thing is, it seems like a really bad strategy for game design. You can't bank of having Torment-quality writing, or SS2 quality sound, or any art aspect whatsoever other than the 'games contain little pieces of art' argument. Games can be art, but it's sort of irrelevant to overall number of good games around.

What there needs to be, more the point, is the equivalent of the 'Kubric contract'. I'm thinking of how stuidos, in the 2nd half of Kubrick's career, would give him far greater budgets, control and time than anyone else, on the basis that this was fucking Kubrick, and even if the film flopped, they'll still be making huge money off Kubrick box sets for decades to come.

Tarantino is the closet of our era, and had a similar deal when he intended to edit Kill Bill into 1 film, and studio had to approach him as tell him 'naaa....you're not quite on the same deal as the rest of our directors. If the film sucks, we'll got our money back by packaging it to Pulp Fiction/Jackie Chan/True Romance/Reservoir Dogs box sets, and frankly, you're our guy for the 'release legendary film-makers stuff, with lots of 'making-of' docos, interviews about the filmaker himself, etc., in 50 years time. Just keep it as two separate films, we know you're good for it.'

That's what I'd like to see in gaming. Not one that holds MCA up and says 'write something like torment', but one that can recognise that they're sitting on something fucking special, and that other compromises ought to be made iif necessary.

 

[Ludo Lense]

This discussion is pointless because:

a) Everybody just wants everyone else to validate their choice or hate on other people's choices. Nobody is broadening their horizons here. Also the "Are games art?" discussion is useless.
b) Dink Smallwood is the obvious answer. Retardo the thread.

 

[Darth Roxor]

b) Dink Smallwood is the obvious answer. Retardo the thread.

good man

 

[Agame]

Why are people so afraid of games being considered art?

Photography and film got there, why shoudnt games strive for it to?

You people are all philistines.

Oh and Wizardry (the early games), its minimalist art at its finest!

 

[†††]

Gaming would be a lot better if people stopped obsessing about games as art and started to think about them as a craft.

 

[Agame]

Hmmmmm art vs craft, now theres a good debate!

Level design and environmental storytelling is art, too. Art doesn't always have to provoke deep thoughts.

Thief is art.
Deus Ex is art.

They're both better art than those modern walking sims without gameplay that try to be deep.

Anyway this man gets it.

 

[Gragt]

It’s pretty, but is it art?

 

[JarlFrank]

Gaming would be a lot better if people stopped obsessing about games as art and started to think about them as a craft.

There is no art without competent craft.

The problem is that some people these days have a skewed view of art, which enables bullshit such as modern conceptual art which isn't art at all because there is zero measure of skill involved, and in many cases not even effort.

Unless you put effort into it, unless you at least try to produce something with quality, it will not be art. Some walking simulator which is, like, totally deep and stuff isn't art no matter how "deep" and "thought provoking" it is if it fails at fulfilling the basic tasks of its medium.
Unless you actually put some gameplay, or at least heavy interactivity, into the game, it's not an "artistic" game. It might have a good story and good atmosphere, but that just means it would probably have been more effective in a different medium. Maybe a movie, maybe a novel, maybe a graphic novel, but not a game, because for it to qualify as a "game that is art" it must display these artistic qualities in the areas where it matters, which for a game is gameplay.

There are cases of good novels being turned into shit movies, or heck, even good games being turned into mediocre novels (Planescape Torment novelisation, for example). You'd call one of these two art, but the other just failed too hard at doing the thing it should do. No matter how great the novel that served as a base for the movie, if the director has no idea on how to construct a good movie scene and his delivery of the story just utterly sucks, it's not a good movie. Nobody would call it an artful movie, even if the book it is based on won the Nobel Prize. It would have an artistic element, which is the story, but it wouldn't be a work of art in its whole.

Art requires, in order to be good, a competent command of the craft. For games, that would be mostly level design but also mechanics. If your level design is banal shit boring, or if your mechanics are barely there (as in walking sims), you didn't create a "game as art". You might have written a story with literary quality, your graphics might be so beautiful they could be considered artworks on their own, but you didn't create a "game as art". For the game to be considered a piece of art in its whole, it has to succeed at the elements that are important for the medium of games. It has to have interactivity and gameplay and be at least reasonably competent at it.

Otherwise, the thing you just created might have been better as a movie, book, comic, musical... whatever.

P.S.
I don't consider bullshit like Jackson Pollock's crap art, because it is just stupid random splotches of paint on a canvas. There is no skill and no craft to it, and therefore it's shit.

 

[Dreaad]

Gothic 1 and 2. Oh and some NWN mods.

 

[nomask7]

If it's true that music is the highest form of art (due to being the most pleasing), then it follows that games are better than art (like Vogel quipped) due to being the most pleasing of all. Well, a few games anyway.

I guess my list is heavily biased toward games that give me an aesthetic experience. I find that excellent gameplay alone doesn't make me passionate about a game. If a game doesn't please me aesthetically, it ends up feeling like a waste of time. Gameplay is part of the aesthetic experience, but not enough on its own. Like if you removed Mario from Super Mario Bros, removed the iconic music, removed everything that made it Mario except the raw level design and gameplay, I wouldn't count it as a masterpiece anymore.

In rough order of preference:

Warhammer: Dark Omen
Gothic 2 Gold
Dark Souls II (the original, not the scam that is SotFS; preferably with Company of Champions difficulty and SP/offline mode)
Bloodborne
TES: Arena
Ultimate Doom (with Playstation version soundtrack)
Wazhack
ADOM (especially the original free version from a couple years back with ASCII graphics)
Geneforge 5
Din's Curse (monsters set to tougher but fewer, maybe a few levels above you depending; timed quests, normal pace)
Super Mario Bros

Not saying they're perfect or that there aren't others as good or better that I just haven't played enough or don't know about (or am forgetting)...

 

[Israfael]

It's codex, therefore every gaem is shit. QFT, close the thread.

 

[laclongquan]

Define "work of art" as "something I myself think it's a work of art"

Planescape Torment. It's a freaking piece of philosophy wrapped in stories and soaked in multiple layer of gameplay elements. Whenever I see it, "work of art" flash through my mind.

Vampire Bloodlines. In contrast, it's a freaking piece of story wrapped in legends and world buildings, the soaked in multiple layers of gameplay elements. It's "work of art" in a different term from PST.
(in this same term, but of lesser quality, is Final Fantasy 8 and Chronos Cross. They are built in the same line of art as Bloodlines but lesser in term of gameplay, so they can not get the label, but they are nearly alike to VTMB)

 

[mutonizer]

It's codex, therefore every gaem is shit.[..]

Therefore it's art (link / link)?

Spoiler

OP mentioned masterpiece though, not art.
- XCOM, for the tension it managed to generate. Nothing ever came close since.
- Dwarf Fortress, for the ability it has to just ride onto my imagination.
- early Everquest, for the insane social interactions it generated, something that I've never encountered anywhere else and can no longer exist because of the prevalence of voice chat.

 

[Kev Inkline]

It's codex, therefore every gaem is shit. QFT, close the thread.

What you say is very much true, but it does not mean the games cannot be discussed excessively - fifty shades of brown, you know.