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RPG Endgame Concept

RandomAccount

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It wasn't that bad.

The rant was actually quite good, for a rant. Complete nonsense written in an unreadable format, but a first class rant none-the-less.
 

tuluse

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Serpent in the Staglands Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Shadorwun: Hong Kong
if i remember correctly, in the last area of fallout 1, you don´t need to combat anybody, and can induce the final boss to suicide.
Good Question!

Fallout 1/2 got the final dungeons with some quests inside, and way to finish the game without too much combat.

Ditto with Torment Planescape.
Well yeah, of course. But we all know FO 1-2.

Though wasn't the Military Base in FO1 a combat area? Otherwise, the real Fallouts are nice example.

Can't agree about PS:T. The last part of the game has a lot of unnecessary combat.
Yes the Military Base is the final area. No, you don't have to fight anyone. You can sneak through the whole thing. I believe you can also use science/repair to go through the force fields and avoid combat.
 

Niektory

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Why not just give up and make a city adventure. One detailed location, NPCs that change through time, short combat encounters from time to time, heavy CnC, ability to give non-essential NPCs some character development since you don't change them every 3 hours or so. The first Witcher was the closest to that type of game I believe. I mean look, if you spend resources on something people will either dislike or ignore just because it's an old genre trope then you are just wasting your money.
Age of Decadence is going to be like that. Well not exactly, as there are 3 towns, not one, but the idea is similar. There are some additional locations, but no traditional combat-heavy dungeons.
 

mariog

Educated
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However there are no city-adventure RPGs with mechanic centred solely around cities (just like dungeon crawlers are focused on dungeons).

The NWN module "Honor among Thieves" and the NWN2 modules "Conan Chronicles 2" and "Crimmor" are like this (well, technically the first two do have some buildings that could qualify as "dungeons", but they can be skipped).
 

Nihiliste

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Endgames seem to be consistently difficult for developers to get right. Even if it's not the common hit them with trash mobs type of tedious design it still seems to be problematic for most developers to come up with a satisfying ending. MoTB sticks out to me as a disappointing one - conceptually a great one with what should have been an epic assault on the city of judgment ended up feeling empty and hollow without convincingly difficult and sizeable encounters.
 
Self-Ejected

Lilura

RPG Codex Dragon Lady
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RPGs with very satisfying endgame areas

Fallout (Cathedral)
Fallout 2 (Enclave oil rig)
Deus Ex (Area 51)
Jagged Alliance 2 (Meduna)

RPGs with disappointing endgame areas

Dragon Age: Origins (Battle of Denerim trash mobs)
Planescape: Torment (Shadow trash mobs, then Vhailor/Ignus)
Baldur's Gate (bad pathfinding thieves maze)
Mask of the Betrayer (City of Judgment trash mobs)
Arcanum (Vendigroth dungeons and the Void bore)

RPGs where at least they tried

Icewind Dale 2 (Severed Hand, lots of quest XP and dialogue)
Storm of Zehir (World Serpent temple, stealth rewards)
 

Renegen

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I liked Star Ocean 2's endgame (I know). You had to battle 12 evil dudes, sort of epic bosses. It starts out simple enough, 1 guy here, another one there, but then it escalates to 2 dudes per battle, then 3. It created an ever rising challenge but also a defined and satisfying ending, the whole game was nothing but leveling your characters and battling and the 12 evil dudes gave you just that. It also helped that your character didn't stop evolving after killing the final boss, there was still the bonus dungeon to be completed.

I think that's what RPGs should do to make the endgame as good as possible, focus on their strengths. If you actually have a good story, then deliver the final chapter, but please don't throw your shitty combat system along with it. That's why Deus Ex had such a great ending, it was all about how the story ended and how every character arc was tied up, that's what you cared about and that's what you got. The problem with some combat heavy RPGs is that the resource management is a major part of the fun and that goes away by the end and the combat ceases to innovate too.
 

StaticSpine

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Yes the Military Base is the final area. No, you don't have to fight anyone. You can sneak through the whole thing. I believe you can also use science/repair to go through the force fields and avoid combat.
Okay, you can use radio to disengage force fields, I remember. Anyway, Fallout is an example of a good endgame design. And BTW Military Base is one of two final areas and you can choose where to go first, that's awesome too.

RPGs with very satisfying endgame areas

Fallout (Cathedral)
Fallout 2 (Enclave oil rig)
Deus Ex (Area 51)
Jagged Alliance 2 (Meduna)

RPGs with disappointing endgame areas

Dragon Age: Origins (Battle of Denerim trash mobs)
Planescape: Torment (Shadow trash mobs, then Vhailor/Ignus)
Baldur's Gate (bad pathfinding thieves maze)
Mask of the Betrayer (City of Judgment trash mobs)
Arcanum (Vendigroth dungeons and the Void bore)

RPGs where at least they tried

Icewind Dale 2 (Severed Hand, lots of quest XP and dialogue)
Storm of Zehir (World Serpent temple, stealth rewards)
Lionheart must be in the second category.
 

dukeofwhales

Cipher
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Nov 13, 2013
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423
>Icewind Dale 2
RPGs where at least they tried

Icewind Dale 2 (Severed Hand, lots of quest XP and dialogue)

I thought IWD2's end game was rad. It's my favourite part of the game, and it's a pity you have to wade through a fair bit of mediocre content (ice temple, dragon's eye, monastery) to get there.
 

Cadmus

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I liked Planetscape: Tournament endgame, it just suffered from the shitty engine.

The best endgame for me was, when I had no idea that I had the expansion installed and after being locked in that crystal in Divinity 2, I get to continue in a pretty town full of quests and no trash combat! That town was like the ideal endgame (except for its own shitty dragon endgame)
The stakes are high, the hour is nigh, you got to gather your resources and become the most awesomest awesome hero ever real fast. You know, a smallish, tight area filled with talking and the sense of impending doom, I thought that was a nice endgame. Of course I had no idea it wasn't an endgame and had to look up wtf was going on the Internet.


I don't mind combat heavy endgames in some games. Like D:OS had a combat heavy area but I like fighting in that game, it's the best thing about it, so bring it on. I only wish it was harder and longer.
The same for Wizardry 8. I only wish my characters were put to some ultimate test in these games.

Planetscape though, I was glad I didn't have to fight anyone. I was glad the game didn't really care about the xp and neither had to I. I was happy to get to see the ending of the story, good enough for me and the less I had to fuck around with the pathfinding and combat in general, the better.
 

Carrion

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Generally the purpose of the endgame area is to build up some momentum before the finale, and also to provide the final test for your character build. It's not surprising that many games have a linear combat-filled dungeon at the end, because that way they have more control over the pacing and can also make the player feel like he has to actually work to beat the game. I guess a huge non-linear endgame area could be seen as a potential anti-climax, even if it could be much more interesting than your usual endgame dungeon. Even FO and FO2's endgame areas, which were pretty great in my opinion, were still relatively straightforward and linear, still very much dungeons with a bit more freedom and less combat than in most games. Personally I'm pretty sick of the concept of an end boss dungeon, too.

Morrowind had an "endgame" that was somewhat similar to what's described in the OP. The last part of the main quest is all about preparing for the final battle. You know where the bad guy is and that he's waiting for you, and you can fight him whenever you're ready and have the needed equipment. There is a dungeon involved but it's rather short and barely even a nuisance at that stage of the game. It worked well enough, although I wouldn't really count it amongst my favorites.

Might seem like an odd game to mention here, but The Witcher 2 had a kind of interesting endgame structure-wise. The last chapter of the game (which was unfortunately rather straightforward) was a build-up for a certain big event where many storylines were brought to an end. The actual meeting with the "end boss" was only at the epilogue after that event, and even there you could choose not to fight him. No dungeons of any kind involved. It was somewhat of an atypical, bittersweet ending, something that you rarely see in games.

My favorite endgame would probably be PS:T's, simply because it wrapped up things in an incredibly satisfying way and fit the game very well thematically.
 
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RPG Wokedex Strap Yourselves In
However there are no city-adventure RPGs with mechanic centred solely around cities (just like dungeon crawlers are focused on dungeons).

The NWN module "Honor among Thieves" and the NWN2 modules "Conan Chronicles 2" and "Crimmor" are like this (well, technically the first two do have some buildings that could qualify as "dungeons", but they can be skipped).

Thanks, will check it later. I've stopped playing NVN modules because I had enough of shitty combat, but I'll probably reinstall. Would brofist, but can't.
 

RandomAccount

Guest
I do like the title of this thread, it's why I keep looking into it. What depresses me though is that the OP and resultant debates don't have anything to do with what I was thinking was the main problem with most RPG endings (this is a subject I've thought a lot about over the years and commented on before on many a thread).

Dungeons? WTF? Too much combat? WTF?

Yes, I kinda get what some people are saying, but phrases like 'dungeons' and 'combat' are fairly useless in putting into my mind what the problem is. One game could have a really great dungeon with an amazing ending where as another game could have a really shitty dungeon with a really naff ending - the fact that there's a dungeon present is neither here nor there.

Likewise, is the combat good or bad? is a more important point than is there too much of it or not enough of it?.

My issue with endgame is solely and entirely based on such things as 'originality' and 'quality'.

For example, wouldn't it be really great to have an ending where you fight a great troop of high quality opponents outside the door of the endboss, but when you then go into the room of the endboss you find it to be one solitary Goblin that commits suicide upon your entrance (during a great cut-scene of hilarity etc). Bang, game over but with a really nice twist that will linger in our memory far more than slogging out great slobberbeast no.154, and you don't have to go to any of the trouble of breaking standard RPG conventions to do it.

And, afterall, Isn't this how most real-world dictators tend to go down? With lots of bluff and bodyguards then a whimper?

And a good way to troll the convention of saving all your HP for the final boss... heck, it even has a good troll at the whole concept of a final boss. The storyfags are happy because it's a story ending, the combatfags are happy because the pre-fight was good and you get originality points to boot.

But no, it's just another take on the same old same old 'combat/dungeons argument' thread misleadingly titled an 'endgame thread'.
 

StaticSpine

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For example, wouldn't it be really great to have an ending where you fight a great troop of high quality opponents outside the door of the endboss, but when you then go into the room of the endboss you find it to be one solitary Goblin that commits suicide upon your entrance (during a great cut-scene of hilarity etc). Bang, game over but with a really nice twist that will linger in our memory far more than slogging out great slobberbeast no.154, and you don't have to go to any of the trouble of breaking standard RPG conventions to do it.

And, afterall, Isn't this how most real-world dictators tend to go down? With lots of bluff and bodyguards then a whimper?
yeah, I actually thought about that too, because usually you fight elite bodyguards and the person who they are guarding appears much more powerful warrior than themselves, doesn't make much sense.
 
Self-Ejected

Lilura

RPG Codex Dragon Lady
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Feb 13, 2013
Messages
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And, afterall, Isn't this how most real-world dictators tend to go down? With lots of bluff and bodyguards then a whimper?

Do you think Saddam Hussein would have been found hiding in a hole like a hobo if he was thugged out like Frank Horrigan?
 

DosBuster

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I feel like endgames should be similar to an "end of year" test that you would get at a school. So, mixes of everything you've learnt and different situations, make the player look back at what they once were, and make them realize what terrible, power-gamer they had become. Also make them miss the game.
 

garren

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RPGs with very satisfying endgame areas

Fallout (Cathedral)
Fallout 2 (Enclave oil rig)
Deus Ex (Area 51)
Jagged Alliance 2 (Meduna)

RPGs with disappointing endgame areas

Dragon Age: Origins (Battle of Denerim trash mobs)
Planescape: Torment (Shadow trash mobs, then Vhailor/Ignus)
Baldur's Gate (bad pathfinding thieves maze)
Mask of the Betrayer (City of Judgment trash mobs)
Arcanum (Vendigroth dungeons and the Void bore)

RPGs where at least they tried

Icewind Dale 2 (Severed Hand, lots of quest XP and dialogue)
Storm of Zehir (World Serpent temple, stealth rewards)

Some more:
Betrayal at Krondor: As much as I love this game, the final game chapter was just a huge dungeon with enemies you need to hunt and kill, the cool overworld exploration and plot twists are done at this point.
Divine Divinity: Shittiest endgame ever, a huge fuck you over the cool beginning, endless trash mobs that go on and on and on.
Gothic 1 & 2: Yup, endgame in both consists of a huge linear dungeon with tough enemies you need to slog through to get to the final boss. Boooooring.
Bloodlines: Endless trash mobs and a couple bosses at the end. Meh.

Now for some good parts:
Legend of Grimrock: A very different and cool endboss that can't be killed the normal way, also I felt the game stayed fun till the end instead of some boring slog.

Just those from the top of my mind.
 

Volourn

Pretty Princess
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"Divine Divinity: Shittiest endgame ever, a huge fuck you over the cool beginning, endless trash mobs that go on and on and on."

HUH? You just described DD's beginning. LMAO It was why I originally shut it off.
 

garren

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Sure the game overall is combat oriented and the beginner dungeon could have been shorter, but once you get out of the first town things start to open up and get better imo.
 
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Davaris

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Just finished Lionheart: Legacy of the crusader.

I can't express in mere words how infuriating the last stretch of the game was. Actually, everything past barcellona was bad, but after tolouse it got really atrocious. "Oh, here's a dungeon filled with trash mobs... here's another... you know what, here, have another one!". It could have been a good game, if it wasn't for the absimal endgame (by 'endgame' i mean england and persia).
Thank god for the fact that at least the final boss was defeatable in dialog.

The devs said they put in the trash mobs, when they ran out of money. They said they needed another million dollars to finish the game properly.
 

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