RPG/Strategy with deep Character Creation?

[SirSingAlot]

i am currently (and by that i mean since...foreverish)looking for a good RPG/Strategy game with deep character creation.
i am a reroller at heart, i love to spend hours on idling with my Chars, tuning, redoing and the like.
the more characters, the better of course. so party based>single char.
to give you some idea of what i am talking about: Wizardry 7 (8 to a lesser extent), Realms of Arcania 1+2 (even if half the skills outside of combat didnt matter) and even some JRpgs like FFVII (you could build your characters, but you were able to durdle enough with materias) i enjoyed a lot.
when it comes to strategy titles, i LOVE to advance and tweak and level up my units, equip them and the like. (e.g. Shadows of the Horned Rat , Fallen Enchantress e.g)
nowadays i rarely find games that satisfy me in this regard.
i am thankful for recommendations.

 

[belowmecoldhands]

Ya I've enjoyed some of it too. I always got irritated when another gamer called it "micromanaging" or "boring". Ya, I get irritated if there's nothing else in the game. And you know I think there's a deeper layer of meaning behind all this which I think you or others might be missing. And that's the stats/skills which make character creation and character development so deep are symbolic of the character. High strength means the character strong. High intelligence means they're clever. High climbing skill means they're good at climbing. High speech etiquette and language means they're socially likable and can speak multiple languages. What all of this amounts to is ..... a very defined character! That's what you really want. The question is whether lots of stats/skills are necessary to create deep characters? Answering this question can have a lot of implications for future RPGs.

It's obvious to me only a deep story is necessary to create deep characters. Yet it also seems some players only want a deep story, and hence deep characters, but not deep stats/skills. Why do some of us apparently want a deep stats/skills system to serve as the foundation for everything else, if it's apparently unnecessary for deep characters?

Imagine trying to make a game without any numeric (or calculable) stats/skills but a rich story, characters and world. Maybe by exploring this route one can answer this question about whether stats/skills have to be strictly defined. Do keep in mind if a skill or stat isn't strictly defined then the game needs a way to know a character is strong or witty or good at tool making. For instance, if the story tells me Jack is a brawny character then my interactions with Jack need to reflect that.

 

[tuluse]

You should check out Darklands. It has one of the coolest character generation systems ever. You pick choices your character made in life and go through 5 years at a time, and it's your choice when to stop. You can make characters as old or as young as you want.

 

[Lonely Vazdru]

"Temple of Elemental Evil" comes to mind, since many people spent more time creating and re-creating characters, and enjoying it, than actually playing the game.

 

[SirSingAlot]

yeah...have played em both already :/

 

[Lilura]

Arcanum, Neverwinter Nights (HotU & community modules), NWN2 (MotB, SoZ & community modules), Icewind Dale 2, ToEE, Wizardry 8...

When it comes to RPGs, D&D 3.x is mostly where it's at. I also enjoyed M&B Warband (Prophecy of Pendor) char cre + dev.

 

[CryptRat]

Megatraveller : like Realms of Arkania, i have created many characters and never played much of the game.

 

[kain611]

Blackguards seemed to be fairly deep customization. Also if online MMORPG's are your thing I know you can spend hours in Dark Age of Camelot Templating a character out. I've recently returned and am currently trying to temp out my Skald

 

[SirSingAlot]

i'd rather fist me in my own bro' before i touch any MMO.

i have of course played all AD&D Games (Baldurs Gate, Icewind Dale, ToEE...heck even Pool of Radiance)but not because they offered the deepest of character builds.
i was hoping that some games went under the radar or that some Strategy titles would suit me well.

maybe i am dipping my toes into Blackguards

 

[belowmecoldhands]

Hey SirSingAlot, you haven't by chance played Jagged Alliance 2? Sir-tech is the same company which made Wizardry 7/8 which you listed in your OP. I cannot believe you have not tried JA2? I have to assume you have.

It's a blend of tactics, strategy and some RPG. I can tell immediately when I look at the Wizardry games they're Sir-tech.

Oh and one more possible game you might like is Master of Magic:
http://af.gog.com/game/master_of_magic?as=1649904300

Is made by the same guy who later made the prototype for Master of Orion. Like JA2, it's strategy/rpg/tactics. However, I'd say it's lighter on the RPG elements, although I haven't attest to this since I haven't played it. It's in my favorites.

One of hte commenters says it better than me:

Unsurpassed. by

GOG.com User

In spite of its age, Master of Magic is, without doubt, still occupying a small space on many hard drives. The game is, in short, a clone of Civilization set in a typical heroic fantasy setting. However, the combat aspect of Civivilization has been greatly enhanced in this game : when stacks of enemy units meet, the game turns into a small tactical screen where you can direct them in a turn-based combat. Master of Magic also includes enough elements of role-playing game to interest RPG gamers. Ordinary units gain experience with time, and you can hire heroes representing the usual heroic fantasy classes. You can also create their own weapons to suit their powers. Your own personnage, the main magician, also obeys some RPG codes, with traits, abilities and magical specializations that can lead him, or her, to master dozains and dozains of spells of all types. The number of different units and races that exist in the game is astonishing. Everything is here, from all kind of invoqued beasts and undeads to the whole range of heroic fantasy units, belonging to 15 different races. Note that your realm will be multi-racial anyway. You choose a starting race but, while you expand, you'll conquer others and will access to their respective units. Finally, the map is randomized like in Civ, except that the game world is actually flat, with two different faces (a bright one and a dark one) that you can access through portals. This adds another welcome level of strategy.
(...)

That commnt makes me drool, but I just cna't play every game ever made. Right now I'm playing Daggerfall. There're sooooo many good games in the past 25 years. There're good modern games too. I can't do it all.

I know these're old gams, but here's another for you:
http://af.gog.com/game/king_of_dragon_pass?as=1649904300

Unique and amazing! by

Binni

If you have any sort of inkling towards original storytelling, strategy and role-playing you should get this game! It does things very differently from any other game and does it really well.

I think it's main quality for me is the depth of the world and the story as well as all the events that you decide on. It is quite a tough game strategically but really rewarding throughout. Next turn becomes an addiction and you really fell like you inhabit that world, which is very rare for in the gaming industry. Highly original in all areas and very well made.

That's another one in my favorites.

 

[hoverdog]

Jagged Alliance 2 1.13 (with a party of AIMs if you really need to roll all characters - mercs are so much more fun)

Avernums

Wasteland 2

 

[V_K]

When it comes to character creation, TDE games (Blackguards, Drakensang) are basically the boss. While they don't approach the insane complexity of RoA trilogy, that's mostly because they cut the useless skills off.
Eschalon games are quite fine in that department, even if some other areas of those games aren't that stellar.
Microprose RPGs (Challenge of the Five Realms, Bloodnet) have extensive character systems, but suffer from the same problem as RoA. And it's made somewhat worse by the fact, that you only create the main character and certain roles are quickly filled by hirelings, so you're left with only a couple of efficient builds for your PC.

Also - almost any roguelike.

 

[kain611]

ToME is good for character creation and its a roguelike that isn't as frustrating as some.

 

[Crooked Bee]

If you enjoyed Wizardry 7, do give Wizards & Warriors a try too.

 

[Grimwulf]

Among non-mentioned:
- early TES games could make you spend some time on rerolling;
- old dnd dungeon crawlers also had a lot of rolling involved, although you were given the option to max out everything freely (games like Eye of the Beholder, Dark Sun, etc);

 

[PhantasmaNL]

Most time i ever spent on CC was probably wiz7. After studying the manual (still have this) which wasnt done in a few minutes btw and included spell lists and a bestiary (old skool terminology right there) i decided not to use the premade characters but roll them myself. First put down some notes on the classes that seemed essential. Ninja, Monk (i was thinking Kung Fu TV series monk), Lord. Of course this was without knowing that these classes required some Serious Rerolling...i think i ended up with the monk, but couldnt roll the others. So, at about 1 AM i finally started playing..

So when wiz8 came along and you could just tick a box for a ninja, i thought wtf!? The end of oldskool right there.

 

[Scroo]

If you enjoy rerolling you should try Elminage Gothic too.

 

[octavius]

I really liked the Rolemaster system used in Aethra Chronicles. Not very complex, but enough so that you could create different types of characters from the same class (Rogues and Bards as melee fighers or archers? for example). But the really great thing about it was the synergy between classes, skills and items, which I think is the best I've seen in a CRPG.
Too bad there was no sequel.

 

[vonAchdorf]

You should check out Darklands. It has one of the coolest character generation systems ever. You pick choices your character made in life and go through 5 years at a time, and it's your choice when to stop. You can make characters as old or as young as you want.

Yes, it's really great and it automatically creates a background for each character (if you chose not to pick the optimal rural commoner ---- hermit route). I also liked that your group could be really age diverse from greenhorns to old scholars or young scholars to retired veterans of the watch.

 

[Crane]

Bloodnet

 

[Daemongar]

I spent more time creating characters for NWN2 MotB than playing the game. Something about being given 17 free levels at the start and trying to create the most interesting character.

 

[Telengard]

I've always found it kind of sad that all of the really complex pnp rpgs have never been ported over, despite the fact that computers could crunch all those stats far better than people can. Even Blackguards, mentioned earlier, while it uses an open character system (which has complexity in and of itself), it's kind of on the low of complexity amongst the pnp versions of that sort of system. Sad, really.

But, I'll add a couple to the list, too. Since all of the front lines runners have apparently been played, I assume we need to go more unheard of (sometimes with good reason):

Twilight 2000
Mars Saga
Centauri Alliance

 

[laclongquan]

BG2, of course. We have plenty of level to play around at start.

Then IWD2. I dont know but that game have a really good lowlevel character creation.

NWN2 MOTB is a model for how you do it.

Arcanum. The sheer possibilities dazzle you.

Vampire the Masquerade Bloodlines: With histories unlocked. Batshit insane Malkavian has such potential that you cant wait to try it out. And it doesnt disappoint. Then you go back to try one after another build.

JA2, when you design your IMP mercenary. Pretty deep, especially for level 1.

Morrowind is fairly deep though not memorable.

Fallout New Vegas. People could play with the first hair screen for hours if they install the hair mode.

 

[Crooked Bee]

But, I'll add a couple to the list, too. Since all of the front lines runners have apparently been played, I assume we need to go more unheard of (sometimes with good reason):

Twilight 2000
Mars Saga
Centauri Alliance

Of these, Mars Saga is meh, but Centauri Alliance is pretty good so I second that. It's basically Bard's Tale in space with some added positioning.

 

[Telengard]

Completely agree with Bee. Though, I will add, as long as you never leave the character creation, Twilight 2000 is the best. (Special Note: Potato as a skill!)