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RPGs with robust resource management

Cadmus

Arcane
Joined
Dec 28, 2013
Messages
4,264
Lords of Xulima has some scarce resources, maybe TW1 has some at the start, Expeditions: Conquistador do that till about the midgame, Darkest Dungeon and that's all I can recall right now. Anyway, I don't remember the last game where it wasn't really easily breakable, you usually just outlevel your need to use consumables.
 

Maggot

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Mar 31, 2016
Messages
1,243
Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire
NeoScavenger
I don't think roguelikes/-lites count as per the OP. Otherwise CDDA is also a good example (although better if you apply that mod that takes out fursuits and survivor gear)
Fursuits? What the hell did they do to Cataclysm? That game was top tier back when the original dev was working on it and you could connect to a server and find dead bodies of other players and places they'd looted.
 

Lonely Vazdru

Pimp my Title
Joined
Jan 10, 2007
Messages
6,656
Location
Agen
It was not a good game, but Betrayal in Antara had a nice system of weapons/armour degradation as they were used. It made having a constant supply of oil, whetstones, wax and probably other resources I forgot, a must for good maintenance. There were also some temporary weapons and armour enhancing substances or items (like metal wires that improved an armour electrical resistance for one fight) that were nice to consume every once in a while
 
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thekdawg21

Augur
Joined
Mar 10, 2009
Messages
231
Location
Atlantic City, NJ
Project: Eternity
Never implied BG2 was hardcore. Its just that you keep saying its an easy game, and its only an easy game when you have meta knowledge, and every rpg is like that when you do.

BG and BG2 are always easy games, unless you mod them and self impose restrictions. You don't need meta knowledge of any sort for these games to be easy. I believe what Lilura is looking for is the early game scarcity of resources feeling to be carried throughout the entire game, instead of just in the beginning. That would be amazing, as would entire games where you never get awesome magical items that completely make sections of the game trivial. Also Lilura, it seems like you want to have free reign to meta the fuck out of a system and still be challenging to you. I don't think games are really designed that way anymore, save for roguelikes. Self imposed restrictions are really the only way to get that sort of enjoyment out of conventional cRPGs, imo.
 

Lhynn

Arcane
Joined
Aug 28, 2013
Messages
9,824
BG and BG2 are always easy games, unless you mod them and self impose restrictions. You don't need meta knowledge of any sort for these games to be easy.
Why do you lie? ive seen non-rpg players play it, theyve gotten slaughtered in the easiest difficulties.

I believe what Lilura is looking for is the early game scarcity of resources feeling to be carried throughout the entire game, instead of just in the beginning.
Probably but thats just shit, always having to deal with the same problem gets old fast. As you grow in power new problems should replace the old ones.

That would be amazing, as would entire games where you never get awesome magical items that completely make sections of the game trivial.
Not many games do this, if any at all. Your complain is both baseless and retarded. Also i dislike your avatar.

Also Lilura, it seems like you want to have free reign to meta the fuck out of a system and still be challenging to you. I don't think games are really designed that way anymore, save for roguelikes. Self imposed restrictions are really the only way to get that sort of enjoyment out of conventional cRPGs, imo.
Na, other games that feature this are the RNG fests where choices dont matter or twich based games where metaknowledge is irrelevant and only player skill and reflexes matter. Neither are what she wants. Shes been playing swordflight lately and feels like every game should give you just enough items to get you through challenges, and where difficulty is either hard, or if you make bad choices, it snowballs into almost impossible territory. Which isnt a bad thing imho, but not many people have the patience for this.
TBH she should look towards strategy games for this, where the score goes back to 0 every time you start a game.
 

thekdawg21

Augur
Joined
Mar 10, 2009
Messages
231
Location
Atlantic City, NJ
Project: Eternity
Okay, I give you that people that don't know RPG's will get screwed by Baldur's Gate. Just like I'd get destroyed playing Super Mario Bros. I failed at English with using 'always'. Thank you for correcting me.

I feel terrible that you dislike my avatar and will change it right away. I dislike yours and you should show me the same courtesy.

There are quite a few games where magic items makes encounters trivial, even if you don't know what you are doing beforehand. It would be very nice to include something where new challenges start to outweigh the early ones of simple starvation, lack of gold, etc. I think it would be hard to disagree that it would be enjoyable to ALWAYS have these issues, just maybe not quite so often. I suppose if you are a popamoler you wouldn't want to play a 'realistic' cRPG. I think a true realistic low-fantasy game set in the time period of ancient civilization (Greece, Rome) or American Civil War, or even moving up to WWI, WWII, would be quite enjoyable. Of course you wouldn't be a soldier on the front lines, that'd end up being a wargame or strategy game. A 'realistic' game where you must worry about resources at least some of the time would be fantastic, imo.

A German medic left behind after the retreat of the Wehrmacht in the Russian countryside, trying to get home and avoiding or engaging Russian patrols or advancing units seems to me like it would be very interesting. You'd have to worry about food, disease, the assistance of the locals, the dangers of the wilderness, etc. No magic, just your rifle and a clip or two and whatever else you can beg, borrow, steal, or take at gunpoint.
 

Lhynn

Arcane
Joined
Aug 28, 2013
Messages
9,824
Just like I'd get destroyed playing Super Mario Bros.
Dude, theres a difference, mario bros is for 6 year old with learning difficulty, baldurs gate is for 12 year old with a lot of free time.

I feel terrible that you dislike my avatar and will change it right away. I dislike yours and you should show me the same courtesy.
My avatar grows on people. Yours is shitty, cant stand that cunt.

There are quite a few games where magic items makes encounters trivial, even if you don't know what you are doing beforehand.
This is where you list them one by one and i realize my mistake, or just generalize and get laughed at.

It would be very nice to include something where new challenges start to outweigh the early ones of simple starvation, lack of gold, etc. I think it would be hard to disagree that it would be enjoyable to ALWAYS have these issues, just maybe not quite so often.
Play neoscavenger already.

I suppose if you are a popamoler you wouldn't want to play a 'realistic' cRPG.
Hah! go back to lurking.

I think a true realistic low-fantasy game
Would be boring as shit? yes i think so too.

Of course you wouldn't be a soldier on the front lines, that'd end up being a wargame or strategy game.
Go play silent storm then we can have an argument about this particular subject.

A 'realistic' game where you must worry about resources at least some of the time would be fantastic, imo.
What the fuck do you know about realistic games?

A German medic left behind after the retreat of the Wehrmacht in the Russian countryside, trying to get home and avoiding or engaging Russian patrols or advancing units seems to me like it would be very interesting.
Sure, it could be. Literally anything could be interesting.

You'd have to worry about food, disease, the assistance of the locals, the dangers of the wilderness, etc.
Play neoscavenger already you asshole.

Some sort of occult paganic magic would probably make it more interesting, especially if there was a drawback to using it.

just your rifle and a clip or two and whatever else you can beg, borrow, steal, or take at gunpoint.
It does not sound interesting at all. But to be fair, neither did silent storm. Also what stops you from murdering everyone at the fucking town and taking all their belongings, then doing the same with the next town? if its realistic and you have save/load mechanics the whole issue is a non issue, unless you start imposing artificial penalties or outright ban the player from doing it, in which case its very far from being simulationist.

You see, in a sim game where you can actually murder people for their stuff scarcity should not be an issue, unless theres no people to murder, in which case the game itself loses a lot. You would probably end up with a game like metro 2033 which was shit.
 
Self-Ejected

Lilura

RPG Codex Dragon Lady
Joined
Feb 13, 2013
Messages
5,274
I believe what Lilura is looking for is the early game scarcity of resources feeling to be carried throughout the entire game, instead of just in the beginning. That would be amazing, as would entire games where you never get awesome magical items that completely make sections of the game trivial.

OP itemization was one of BG2's biggest problems, laid out by me in some other thread. And yeah, one advantage of itemizing consumables, instead of items with perma blanket buffs and immunities, is that your campaign is resistant to Monty Haul and you can keep every combat encounter pretty challenging. It doesn't get tedious when the consumables are interesting and rare; stuff like custom potions, scrolls, limited-charge items (f.e, wands, magical scabbards), and so on.
 

Lhynn

Arcane
Joined
Aug 28, 2013
Messages
9,824
OP itemization was one of BG2's biggest problems
Nonsense, it was great fun.

And yeah, one advantage of itemizing consumables, instead of items with perma blanket buffs and immunities, is that your campaign is resistant to Monty Haul and you can keep every combat encounter pretty challenging.
You are delusional if you believe we would have gotten the same encounter design but a different itemization composed of banal bonuses in BG2. Its pretty obvious we would have gotten much weaker encounter designs to go hand in hand with a weaker itemization.

It doesn't get tedious when the consumables are interesting and rare; stuff like custom potions, scrolls, limited-charge items (f.e, wands, magical scabbards), and so on.
I agree, in some cases. It comes down to the game and in no way should it always be the case.
 
Self-Ejected

Lilura

RPG Codex Dragon Lady
Joined
Feb 13, 2013
Messages
5,274
Why do you assume the benefits of consumables must necessarily be banal..? That's a lil' odd..

Is a potion of Storm giant strength banal in BG? (rarely itemized, massive Str-based THAC0/dmg bonus).
Is a limited-charge elixir of regen or Scabbard of Enhancement banal in NWN?

You don't need to go Monty Haul in itemization to cover for tough encounters.

What's obvious is that, outside of Durlag's Tower, you don't get this sort of thing from BioWare.
 

Lhynn

Arcane
Joined
Aug 28, 2013
Messages
9,824
Why do you assume the benefits of consumables must necessarily be banal..? That's a lil' odd..
I didnt. where did you read that? i said you wanted to banalize the effects of gear.

You don't need to go Monty Haul in itemization to cover for tough encounters.
True, but just how big and dangerous those encounters are depends on how prepared the player is expected to be for them.

What's obvious is that, outside of Durlag's Tower, you don't get this sort of thing from BioWare.
My point exactly.
 
Self-Ejected

Lilura

RPG Codex Dragon Lady
Joined
Feb 13, 2013
Messages
5,274
I didnt. where did you read that? i said you wanted to banalize the effects of gear.

Where did you read that? I guess itemized gear is either OP or "banalized" to you, and middleground is not in your vocab.

True, but just how big and dangerous those encounters are depends on how prepared the player is expected to be for them.

Yep, it's an RPG for 12 year olds.

My point exactly.

RPG for 12 year olds.
 

Lhynn

Arcane
Joined
Aug 28, 2013
Messages
9,824
Where did you read that? I guess itemized gear is either OP or "banalized" to you, and middleground is not in your vocab.
A +3 against mind effects isnt the same as immunity against mind effects, and in some cases it may mean nothing. A +1 to strength is a lot more banal than strength set to 20, etc.
Plenty of ways to make items weaker and more boring. Rather reduce the amount of items you can find or equip/use than weaken their effect.

Yep, it's an RPG for 12 year olds.
Yeah, said it before on this very thread.
 
Self-Ejected

Lilura

RPG Codex Dragon Lady
Joined
Feb 13, 2013
Messages
5,274
A +3 against mind effects isnt the same as immunity against mind effects, and in some cases it may mean nothing.

A more reasonable comparison would be between a consumable or limited-charge item that confers mind shield when activated (say, a helm), and a helm that permanently bestows mind shield when worn. The problem with itemizing the latter is that mind shield is active for the remainder of the campaign (likely unbalancing it), whereas the former supplies relief for a particular encounter, or a few encounters, before the player has to source other means of the ward (resource management).

The former clearly doesn't work, cuz in BG2 you have units running around with perma-haste and immunity to mind-affecting, lvl/ability drain, immobilization, insta-death, disease, poison; and it goes on and on.

You argue that BG2's difficulty necessitates that? No, BG2 is not difficult. It's built on the concept of meta-gaming and the Bondari Reloads mentality. There is even a character in ToB who is scripted to "reload" (Bondari), poking fun at players; but really, the devs are the joke, here.

So the combat encounters falsely regarded as hardcore/difficult - let's take for example Kangaxx -> demi-lich, a spammer of insta-death and imprisonment - are really just a laughing stock and something to poke fun at. Why? Because the player overcomes them mostly by means of meta-gaming knowledge: they rested for their full battery (no rest restrictions), they found out what buffs they needed, they found out what OP items to don for blanket immunities, on-hit effects and perma buffs, they found out what spells to cast during the battle, and when etc.

That is just shit.
 

Lhynn

Arcane
Joined
Aug 28, 2013
Messages
9,824
A more reasonable comparison would be between a consumable or limited-charge item that confers mind shield when activated (say, a helm), and a helm that permanently bestows mind shield when worn. The problem with itemizing the latter is that mind shield is active for the remainder of the campaign (likely unbalancing it)
Dont see a problem with this, how would it unbalance it? Theres literally thousands of ways a DM can end a character fair and square without ever even looking at mind affecting spells or abilities.

whereas the former supplies relief for a particular encounter, or a few encounters, before the player has to source other means of the ward (resource management).
Sure i guess, im not opposed to the idea of consumables. What i dislike is the idea that powerful, game changing magical items are somewhat intrinsically bad.

The former clearly doesn't work, cuz in BG2 you have units running around with perma-haste and immunity to mind-affecting, lvl/ability drain, immobilization, insta-death, disease, poison; and it goes on and on.
Sure, but by that time you can get imprisoned and get bent. Also for most of that stuff you need metaknowledge, finally tell me how many sources of permanent haste there are, how many sources of level/ability drain immunity, how many sources that protect against insta death, etc. Game is meant to be played with a party of 6, you managing those items and using them where they would be most effective on the party is in fact part of the game.

You argue that BG2's difficulty necessitates that? No, BG2 is not difficult.
No, i argue that BG2 intended difficulty necessitates that. The difference lies in the intents of the devs, not in your warped perception of what should and shouldnt be. They werent designing the game for you, nor were designing the game for your 50th playthrough after reading 5 comprehensive guides and every post in 5-6 different forums. Its half the reason i think roguey reviews are absolute garbage, and you are using the same criteria.

It's built on the concept of meta-gaming and the Bondari Reloads mentality.
No it isnt, and building a game around that is positively retarded.

There is even a character in ToB who is scripted to "reload" (Bondari), poking fun at players; but really, the devs are the joke, here.
It was a meta joke about low level parties. They didnt meant for you to take offense, only for you to see that kind of situation from the quest giver perspective.

So the combat encounters falsely regarded as hardcore/difficult - let's take for example Kangaxx -> demi-lich, a spammer of insta-death and imprisonment - are really just a laughing stock and something to poke fun at. Why? Because the player overcomes them mostly by means of meta-gaming knowledge: they rested for their full battery (no rest restrictions), they found out what buffs they needed, they found out what OP items to don for blanket immunities, on-hit effects and perma buffs, they found out what spells to cast during the battle, and when etc.
And i dont see a problem with this, it shows complete mastery over the system and understanding of the encounter. Most players could never beat this encounters, a great majority simply gave up after the first try overwhelmed by the power of said enemy.

That is just shit.
No it isnt. And its pretty stupid that you think it is.
 
Self-Ejected

Lilura

RPG Codex Dragon Lady
Joined
Feb 13, 2013
Messages
5,274
Dont see a problem with this, how would it unbalance it? Theres literally thousands of ways a DM can end a character fair and square without ever even looking at mind affecting spells or abilities.

It would obviously imbalance any future encounters against foes that rely on mind-affecting attacks. There are lots of spells and spell-like abilities that adversely affect the mind. Plus in general perma-immunities are imbalancing in that the player doesn't have to worry about negative status effects anymore. They can wipe their slots clean of ward spells, that are now covered by the gear, and instead fill them with offensive AoEs, and summons etc.

What i dislike is the idea that powerful, game changing magical items are somewhat intrinsically bad.

I'm not "anti-game changers".. I just would like to see a lil' more restraint in that respect, that's all. The Robe of Vecna and Shield of Balduran are examples of items no RPGs should have itemized, f.e.

tell me how many sources of permanent haste there are, how many sources of level/ability drain immunity, how many sources that protect against insta death, etc. Game is meant to be played with a party of 6, you managing those items and using them where they would be most effective on the party is in fact part of the game.

There are six sources of perma-haste, heavily itemized haste potions and two different haste spells that can be spammed due to no rest restrictions. There are several sources of wards for the other negative status effects, too. I can't remember the last time I quaffed a potion in BG2...

They werent designing the game for you

That's why I criticize their RPGs.

No it isnt, and building a game around that is positively retarded.

Success in many of BG2's "hardcore" encounters is contingent on prior knowledge gained from reloads. If you can't see that, I'm surprised.

It was a meta joke about low level parties. They didnt meant for you to take offense, only for you to see that kind of situation from the quest giver perspective.

What I'm saying is, there is a more srs issue behind the joke, as there are with lots of jokes.

And i dont see a problem with this, it shows complete mastery over the system and understanding of the encounter. Most players could never beat this encounters, a great majority simply gave up after the first try overwhelmed by the power of said enemy.

Kangaxx demi-lich encounter represents decadent design: 95% trial-and-error with a leftover 5% on-the-fly decision making, if that. Its illegal imprisonment spam, lack of phylactery and where is resides (a graveyard crypt in the middle of a city), is also pretty dumb.

And i dont see a problem with this, it shows complete mastery over the system and understanding of the encounter. Most players could never beat this encounters, a great majority simply gave up after the first try overwhelmed by the power of said enemy.

You should be like me, and blush at yourself for bothering to beat an encounter with such embedded cheese, on both sides.
 

Lhynn

Arcane
Joined
Aug 28, 2013
Messages
9,824
It would obviously imbalance any future encounters against foes that rely on mind-affecting attacks. There are lots of spells and spell-like abilities that adversely affect the mind. Plus in general perma-immunities are imbalancing in that the player doesn't have to worry about negative status effects anymore. They can wipe their slots clean of ward spells, that are now covered by the gear, and instead fill them with offensive AoEs, and summons etc.
They have to sacrifice a gear slot for it tho, and it doesnt take away from the number of times they had to deal with mind affecting spells before they ever ran into the item itself. Also i dont see how it unbalances an encounter, creatures that have mind affecting abilities have plenty of other nasty surprises as well. Like, rpgs are about progression, eventually a player progresses past a certain challenge, and this opens the door to new challenges.
Besides, whos to say the item doesnt get destroyed, lost or dispelled? playing with a players over-reliance on magical items can make for great moments.

I'm not "anti-game changers".. I just would like to see a lil' more restraint in that respect, that's all. The Robe of Vecna and Shield of Balduran are examples of items no RPGs should have itemized, f.e.
Hah, i never actually used shield of balduran, always sold it. Vecnas robe wasnt in the vanilla game (my first couple playthroughs were without it, and i was playing an arcane caster), and yeah, it was the single best item for a spell caster, but then again, you had to be an arcane caster to take advantage of it.

There are six sources of perma-haste, heavily itemized haste potions and two different haste spells that can be spammed due to no rest restrictions. There are several sources of wards for the other negative status effects, too. I can't remember the last time I quaffed a potion in BG2...
I only remember 1 item with haste on demand and that was a sword you got at the end of the game if you picked the evil option which was blackrazor. All others were items with charges. You need to be a fighter class and be proficient with it for it to be worth using.

That's why I criticize their RPGs.
Thats stupid then, because you arent criticizing flaws.

Success in many of BG2's "hardcore" encounters is contingent on prior knowledge gained from reloads. If you can't see that, I'm surprised.
I guess? Thats the idea, lose the encounter, think of how to beat it, beat it. Why would this be a bad thing?

What I'm saying is, there is a more srs issue behind the joke, as there are with lots of jokes.
Its not a serious issue, just an inevitability when it comes to players and their characters. They meet someone that looks rich, they want what he has. Either way not every problem is worth solving, sawyer showed us that.

Kangaxx demi-lich encounter represents decadent design: 95% trial-and-error with a leftover 5% on-the-fly decision making, if that. Its illegal imprisonment spam, lack of phylactery and where is resides (a graveyard crypt in the middle of a city), is also pretty dumb.
Who cares? save/load mechanics, figure the encounter, fight it, beat it, move on. Thats fun! challenge. Not this "fair challenge" bullshit where you should be able to beat it on your first try. If you have save/load in your game use it.

You should be like me, and blush at yourself for bothering to beat an encounter with such embedded cheese, on both sides.
Why would i? its fun to cheese a cheeser. Not saying every encounter needs to be like this, but sometimes they can be fun, they certainly force the player out of their comfort zone when it comes to tactics.
 

purpleblob

Savant
Joined
May 16, 2014
Messages
564
Location
Sydney
Ok, I wasn't going to get involved in this discussion because I don't count myself as a "combat fag" and certainly don't know as much as you guys. BUT....

When I first started playing BG2, I was total noobie to whole computer gaming. I found BG2 brutally difficult. I had to switch from normal to easy for "difficult fights" like Firkraag.

Later on, when I was more familiar with the rulesets and combat mechanics, normal was very easy. Core rule started to get easy too but I found Hard and Insane difficulty still quite challenging. What I'm trying to say is, while BG2 may not be the most difficult game out there combat wise, it is not piece of cake. So I agree with Lhynn's opinion:

No, i argue that BG2 intended difficulty necessitates that. The difference lies in the intents of the devs, not in your warped perception of what should and shouldnt be. They werent designing the game for you, nor were designing the game for your 50th playthrough after reading 5 comprehensive guides and every post in 5-6 different forums. Its half the reason i think roguey reviews are absolute garbage, and you are using the same criteria.


And I found "OP itemisation" great in BG2. I think the warrior classes would be rather boring to play without them.
 
Self-Ejected

Lilura

RPG Codex Dragon Lady
Joined
Feb 13, 2013
Messages
5,274
They have to sacrifice a gear slot for it tho,

That's hardly a penalty. You may lose one or two AC points if you choose to wield the Harmony over Fortress, but the latter's mind shield status is priceless. Besides, nothing is stopping you switching shields mid-encounter; f.e, start off with Harmony against what the spellcasters unleash (say, Confusion and Dire Charm), then switch to fortress to tank the grunts. BG2 does not feature a non-pausing inventory, afterall.

and it doesnt take away from the number of times they had to deal with mind affecting spells before they ever ran into the item itself.

True, but until they come across one such item (there are a few in BG2, one in Chapter Two), they still have access to special ability and spell ward spam - without rest restrictions.

Also i dont see how it unbalances an encounter, creatures that have mind affecting abilities have plenty of other nasty surprises as well.

Sure, but mind shield is a pretty heavy blanket that protects against many spells and spell-like abilities, some of which are the nastiest status effects to be under. What's worse than an enemy DPS attack? Your own DPS units turning against you.

Besides, whos to say the item doesnt get destroyed, lost or dispelled? playing with a players over-reliance on magical items can make for great moments.

Perma buffs cannot be dispelled in BG2, and there are no rust monsters. HotU is the only RPG I can think of, off-hand, where you lose your items: in one instance, a mimic steals the armor from your body using the demonic grappling hook, and then you're pitted against high BAB foes that tear you a new one if you don't don a back-up set; in the other, you lose the magical properties of all items during a dungeon crawl, due to a null magic zone. Pretty cool, but EZ to overcome.

Hah, i never actually used shield of balduran, always sold it. Vecnas robe wasnt in the vanilla game (my first couple playthroughs were without it, and i was playing an arcane caster), and yeah, it was the single best item for a spell caster, but then again, you had to be an arcane caster to take advantage of it.

Vanilla includes expansions and official patches; so yes, Robe of Vecna and Shield of Balduran are in the vanilla game. Quite a few companions are spellcasters or part-spellcaster, too.

I only remember 1 item with haste on demand and that was a sword you got at the end of the game if you picked the evil option which was blackrazor. All others were items with charges. You need to be a fighter class and be proficient with it for it to be worth using.

Arbane also grants activated haste (first inner-city waylay). You're forgetting the Boots of Speed and other items that grant perma-haste when worn.

Thats stupid then, because you arent criticizing flaws.

So you pretend.

I guess? Thats the idea, lose the encounter, think of how to beat it, beat it. Why would this be a bad thing?

Because it's fuckin' lame?

Who cares? save/load mechanics, figure the encounter, fight it, beat it, move on. Thats fun! challenge. Not this "fair challenge" bullshit where you should be able to beat it on your first try. If you have save/load in your game use it.

I prefer more gradual, sustained encounters; in which, if you don't make adjustments you are slowly killed off. Not really interested in these BAM UR DEAD encounters that you can't prepare for, and only succeed in by reloading that gives you prior knowledge of them (i.e, Kangaxx demi-lich).

Why would i? its fun to cheese a cheeser. Not saying every encounter needs to be like this, but sometimes they can be fun, they certainly force the player out of their comfort zone when it comes to tactics.

Vorpal all forms of cheese.
 

Lhynn

Arcane
Joined
Aug 28, 2013
Messages
9,824
That's hardly a penalty. You may lose one or two AC points if you choose to wield the Harmony over Fortress, but the latter's mind shield status is priceless. Besides, nothing is stopping you switching shields mid-encounter; f.e, start off with Harmony against what the spellcasters unleash (say, Confusion and Dire Charm), then switch to fortress to tank the grunts. BG2 does not feature a non-pausing inventory, afterall.
We are not just only talking about BG2. Besides, this suggested use is exactly what you are proposing with consumables. The only difference being that they are more on demand, but it shouldnt matter if you provide enough consumables in your game to beat the challenges.

True, but until they come across one such item (there are a few in BG2, one in Chapter Two), they still have access to special ability and spell ward spam - without rest restrictions.
Not every party composition will have an arcane caster. Rest restriction is there in almost every game, you keep complaining about it as if it meant more, but truth is the narrative allows for nigh unlimited rest spaming. We are talking about an adventure that could take place in many months, or even close to a year. So your problem is also with games that dont impose narrative urgency?

Sure, but mind shield is a pretty heavy blanket that protects against many spells and spell-like abilities, some of which are the nastiest status effects to be under. What's worse than an enemy DPS attack? Your own DPS units turning against you.
Whats a DPS? im not familiar with that denomination on BG2. Other than that you gotta remember, its just 1 of your guys thats protected, not your entire party.

Perma buffs cannot be dispelled in BG2, and there are no rust monsters. HotU is the only RPG I can think of, off-hand, where you lose your items: in one instance, a mimic steals the armor from your body using the demonic grappling hook, and then you're pitted against high BAB foes that tear you a new one if you don't don a back-up set; in the other, you lose the magical properties of all items during a dungeon crawl, due to a null magic zone. Pretty cool, but EZ to overcome.
Just saying it can happen, and could be used to great effect in games. No need to make items boring. You can either reduce gear slots or simply make gear less reliable.

Vanilla includes expansions and official patches; so yes, Robe of Vecna and Shield of Balduran are in the vanilla game. Quite a few companions are spellcasters or part-spellcaster, too.
Quite a few arent.

Arbane also grants activated haste (first inner-city waylay). You're forgetting the Boots of Speed and other items that grant perma-haste when worn.
Boots of speed dont grant haste, only give you better movement speed. Activated haste is a pain in the ass, only 2-3 charges if i remember correctly and gotta spend a round using it. I asked for haste on demand, and only 1 item in the game has it.

So you pretend.
Im not pretending anyway, they are not flaws.

Because it's fuckin' lame?
How is it lame?

I prefer more gradual, sustained encounters; in which, if you don't make adjustments you are slowly killed off.
You can go with those too, but if every encounter is like that it gets boring. You fall into a routine and start setting rules in stone about who to attack what and with that.

Not really interested in these BAM UR DEAD encounters that you can't prepare for, and only succeed in by reloading that gives you prior knowledge of them (i.e, Kangaxx demi-lich).
Fun to come up with ways to beat something thats almost unbeatable. I remember thinking for several hours how to beat kangaxx, i dont think i beat him on my first playthrough.

Vorpal all forms of cheese.
Cheese always comes from non balanced systems, they are an unevitable byproduct of you making a game without minding balance. And no, they are not the worst thing in the world.
 

Lhynn

Arcane
Joined
Aug 28, 2013
Messages
9,824
Ok, I wasn't going to get involved in this discussion because I don't count myself as a "combat fag" and certainly don't know as much as you guys. BUT....

When I first started playing BG2, I was total noobie to whole computer gaming. I found BG2 brutally difficult. I had to switch from normal to easy for "difficult fights" like Firkraag.

Later on, when I was more familiar with the rulesets and combat mechanics, normal was very easy. Core rule started to get easy too but I found Hard and Insane difficulty still quite challenging. What I'm trying to say is, while BG2 may not be the most difficult game out there combat wise, it is not piece of cake. So I agree with Lhynn's opinion:

No, i argue that BG2 intended difficulty necessitates that. The difference lies in the intents of the devs, not in your warped perception of what should and shouldnt be. They werent designing the game for you, nor were designing the game for your 50th playthrough after reading 5 comprehensive guides and every post in 5-6 different forums. Its half the reason i think roguey reviews are absolute garbage, and you are using the same criteria.


And I found "OP itemisation" great in BG2. I think the warrior classes would be rather boring to play without them.
Yeah, thats p. much what many people went through. BGII is great for beginners to mid level players. It teaches you a lot about the genre and the game itself through encounter design, level design and itemization. It provides a fun story and great characters while you learn the ropes.
 
Self-Ejected

aweigh

Self-Ejected
Joined
Aug 23, 2005
Messages
17,978
Location
Florida
Lilura

Wizardry 1-5, Wizardry Empire 1-3, Wizardry Gaiden 1-6, Elminage: Original, Elminage 2, Elminage 3, Elminage: Gothic, Generation XTH: Code Hazard, Paper Sorcerer, Dark Heart of Uurkul.

All of those games are explicitly about managing: hit points, items, inventory space, spells, party composition, weapon choices, skills and abilities, and the amount of dungeon exploration.
 

Severian Silk

Guest
Zelda

You only have like three hearts in the beginning, and that makes things real tough.
 

SwiftCrack

Arcane
Joined
Oct 3, 2012
Messages
1,836
BG1 (if you had no AD&D knowledge). Fuck whatever you say.
 

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