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Vapourware Seven Dragon Saga - Gold Box spiritual successor from SSI veterans

rezaf

Cipher
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Jan 26, 2015
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650
Eh. Again, SSI's games weren't good because D&D is awesome - SSI's games were good because they were/are good designers. The Gold Box games weren't SSI's best. They were just popular because D&D. I'm sure they probably would make better money with a Gold Box rehash, but neither of you guys should be cheering for them to lower the denominator. Have a little confidence that something can be new and also good.

I'm just saying that what I think IS important is trying to go for the "look and feel" of the old games.
You know, like Grimrock almost perfectly captured the Dungeon Master feel. I'm not a big fan of square dancing combat and they missed nice stuff like being able to use doors as weapons, but by and large, it was a decent representation in modern clothes.
You can change the ruleset, even though I'm occasionally fond of D&D (but I agree it's far from awesome). You can change the setting - I'm not really into all the asia stuff, but hey, benefit of doubt.
And you can (and should) modernize UI and graphics ... but these guys dumped ALL things that made the GoldBox games what they were (except TB combat, albeit in a vastly different style).

Fair enough, you can do that as well ... but if you want to make a modern game for modern audiences, why not just go the ordinary way and get a publisher or secure funding by other conventional means?
 

Apexeon

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All you stupid faggots think that they're cancelling it because they can't into campaign are, in fact - stupid. They've learned from Cleve to postpone everything as long as possible to generate tons of hype

Cleave has enough hype it is creating a distortion in the space time continuum.
 

Zombra

An iron rock in the river of blood and evil
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I'm just saying that what I think IS important is trying to go for the "look and feel" of the old games.
I can dig it.

I thought the matt chat guy had a good point when he talked about getting Clyde Caldwell or someone like that to do the art. The 7DS concept art is pretty bland, but not in a way that really vroom vrooms my nostalgia meter. There's just something about the classic RPG art style that's not quite there yet. Hmm ... could it be ... nah.
 

Alchemist

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There's just something about the classic RPG art style that's not quite there yet. Hmm ... could it be ... nah.
Their pitch needs more boobs, definitely. :lol:

In all seriousness though - I really wish they would consider going 2D. And it doesn't have to be pixel art. They could look to Banner Saga as an example of high-quality, high resolution 2D art done well. I mean can you imagine Banner Saga style grid-based combat screens, switching with faux-3D 1st-person grid-based exploration in the same style? Then it would start feeling really Gold-Boxy. And this would stand out and not look at all generic.

Anyway I wish them well and hope they've taken some of the critiques to heart.
 

ArchAngel

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I hope for their next pitch they take the D&D licence from the N-Sync quacks and made a proper D&D game :)
 

Zombra

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Yeah, I'm serious about the art style, too. Boobs are a factor, of course, but that's not the only thing evocative of that style.

And to go on record, I won't blow my brains out if they go 2D, but I enjoy 3D, rotatable camera, and so forth. It's just nice to be able to look at a tactical situation from more than one angle. I will enjoy the game more in 3D.
 

Athelas

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There's just something about the classic RPG art style that's not quite there yet. Hmm ... could it be ... nah.
Their pitch needs more boobs, definitely. :lol:

In all seriousness though - I really wish they would consider going 2D. And it doesn't have to be pixel art. They could look to Banner Saga as an example of high-quality, high resolution 2D art done well. I mean can you imagine Banner Saga style grid-based combat screens, switching with faux-3D 1st-person grid-based exploration in the same style? Then it would start feeling really Gold-Boxy. And this would stand out and not look at all generic.

Anyway I wish them well and hope they've taken some of the critiques to heart.
You're not going to see a developer implementing two radically different perspectives/rendering methods (isometric and 2d, first-person and (faux-)3d) on a Kickstarter budget of a few hundred k.
 

Alchemist

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There's just something about the classic RPG art style that's not quite there yet. Hmm ... could it be ... nah.
Their pitch needs more boobs, definitely. :lol:

In all seriousness though - I really wish they would consider going 2D. And it doesn't have to be pixel art. They could look to Banner Saga as an example of high-quality, high resolution 2D art done well. I mean can you imagine Banner Saga style grid-based combat screens, switching with faux-3D 1st-person grid-based exploration in the same style? Then it would start feeling really Gold-Boxy. And this would stand out and not look at all generic.

Anyway I wish them well and hope they've taken some of the critiques to heart.
You're not going to see a developer implementing two radically different perspectives/rendering methods (isometric and 2d, first-person and (faux-)3d) on a Kickstarter budget of a few hundred k.
Why not? I don't see how that budget would prevent them from having mixed view 2D game. If anything the Banner Saga style of art should be more efficient to produce than 3D art, if they can find good 2D artists.

And Dungeons of Aledorn is doing it (mixed view) in 3D with a 60k budget.
 

rezaf

Cipher
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Messages
650
You're not going to see a developer implementing two radically different perspectives/rendering methods (isometric and 2d, first-person and (faux-)3d) on a Kickstarter budget of a few hundred k.

As I described upthread, I think they ruled this out pretty early, but I also think it'd have been relatively trivial to implement if they'd gone for "retro graphics" instead of a me-too modern isometric RPG view.
SSI did that stuff on a C64 25 years ago, can it really be so hard to replicate nowadays?
With state of the art 3D art though? I agree, not gonna happen. I think even that would probably be fairly easy to implement in unity, but unless a ton of work was poured into it, it'd look like crap.

Btw., sorry for the butchered quote-post above.
 

Athelas

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Why not? I don't see how that budget would prevent them from having mixed view 2D game. If anything the Banner Saga style of art should be more efficient to produce than 3D art, if they can find good 2D artists.

And Dungeons of Aledorn is doing it (mixed view) in 3D with a 60k budget.
I think this is actually easier to do in 3d: you can just 'zoom out' from first-person until you reach a top-down perspective. Dungeons of Aledorn doesn't have a 60k budget, it's asking for 60k to finish the game. Some of these indie RPG's like Age of Decadence have been in development for over a decade, I wouldn't compare that to a 'normal' development cycle.

You're not going to see a developer implementing two radically different perspectives/rendering methods (isometric and 2d, first-person and (faux-)3d) on a Kickstarter budget of a few hundred k.

As I described upthread, I think they ruled this out pretty early, but I also think it'd have been relatively trivial to implement if they'd gone for "retro graphics" instead of a me-too modern isometric RPG view.
SSI did that stuff on a C64 25 years ago, can it really be so hard to replicate nowadays?
With state of the art 3D art though? I agree, not gonna happen. I think even that would probably be fairly easy to implement in unity, but unless a ton of work was poured into it, it'd look like crap.

Btw., sorry for the butchered quote-post above.
Increased art/graphics demands make it harder to do, sure. But nowadays, these demands are necessary for the game to find an audience so it can be a success and so they can make more RPG's.
I'm not sure what the reception would be to a big, full-scale RPG with a retro/pixelart style - we might find out with Serpent in the Staglands.
 
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;

Educated
Joined
Apr 13, 2009
Messages
36
Was any failed KS project ever "repitched", and if so, did it succeed?

To my eyes, you get one shot at KS. If you failed once, you have failed forever. The only option is to get into loans, sell some kidneys and pour the funds in to meet the goal at the last second. Either that, or pack your stuff and go home.

Not a game, but Coolest Cooler failed 1st time and took 13mil the 2nd:M
 

rezaf

Cipher
Joined
Jan 26, 2015
Messages
650
Increased art/graphics demands make it harder to do, sure. But nowadays, these demands are necessary for the game to find an audience so it can be a success and so they can make more RPG's.
I'm not sure what the reception would be to a big, full-scale RPG with a retro/pixelart style - we might find out with Serpent in the Staglands. Though I suppose you could look at KoTC for an indication.

If you think hard enough, I'm sure you'll come up with a game that basically constructed all it's environments from blocks/cubes which didn't look very modern at all, yet the game ended up having ... some measure of success.
 

DeepOcean

Arcane
Joined
Nov 8, 2012
Messages
7,394
I hope these guys come back strong and bring something to blow things up from the start. They should come back with a detailed explanation of a quest showing how it would be played from start to finish with mo caps of the Ui and everything, so people have a strong grasp of the game they are backing. On the pitch, they should mention their past, obvious, but they should focus more on how their game feels playing and what is bringing of new, not long info dumps on mechanics as if the potential backers aren't interested, they aren't going to even read that stuff in the first place. They should focus on what their RPG is bringing of special.

How about they pitching their game as if the game was a virtual PnP session taking player actions as priority instead of just a linear story shoved on you face like on many RPGs. They need to translate all those updates full of info dumps into something quick and easy to understand for potential backers. Many kickstarters made the same mistakes but they need to realize that unfortunately, as kickstarter works, they are exposed to a higher standard of criticism for not having a recent reputation on the gamming industry. Didn't Fargo did his pitch with a strong "fuck you publishers" and the PC master race pandering?

Those guys could come with a way of saying"fuck you storyfags and your fake choices, we are making a game that is trying to be a video game, not a novel, a movie, a tv show or anything else.", some sort of strong manifesto for their design philosophy that was very lacking on the pitch. By the way they talked about the game, you had the impression they were making a low budget BG 2 clone. They should just come back with a clear message, their pitch instead of being "Hey guise, we made gold box games, we like making games, give us money." that only works for hardcore fans, they should be more specific and clear on their message.
 

Athelas

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Increased art/graphics demands make it harder to do, sure. But nowadays, these demands are necessary for the game to find an audience so it can be a success and so they can make more RPG's.
I'm not sure what the reception would be to a big, full-scale RPG with a retro/pixelart style - we might find out with Serpent in the Staglands. Though I suppose you could look at KoTC for an indication.

If you think hard enough, I'm sure you'll come up with a game that basically constructed all it's environments from blocks/cubes which didn't look very modern at all, yet the game ended up having ... some measure of success.
You don't think I'm aware of that? Besides Minecraft, there's also the hugely succesful Hotline Miami that uses a very pixely art style. But different genres have different expectations. What part of 'full-scale RPG' in my post don't you understand? These games are also one in a kind in many ways, so I'm not sure they make for a convincing argument.
 

SausageInYourFace

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From the updates we got later on from them, I think that the substance was all there already, it was just not presented very well. If they had pitched a lot of the stuff they told us about later, and presented it in a way that actually made people excited..

Instead of "uh, we are making an RPG.. and there will be choices.. and combat.." ...

"Look at our awesome combat system, here is how it works and why you should be excited about it!"
"Lookt at our awesome speciality system, here is how you can create really unique and interesting builds with it!"
"Look at our design philosophy with regard to quests, here are examples with a lot different problems and solutions that you won't find in modern RPGs!"

The stuff was all there, it was just relegated to updates (that made people increasingly more excited here too, when it finally became clear what they are planning) when it should have been the focus in the first place.
 

DeepOcean

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Just come back with a manifesto for their design philosophy on the pitch, something like this "fuck you J_C and your storyfag cunts with your fake choices, we are making a RPG driven by the player actions that is trying to be a videogame, not a novel, tv show, comic book or movie or anything else". It worked wonders for Fargo and his "fuck you publishers" pitch.
 

J_C

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Just come back with a manifesto for their design philosophy on the pitch, something like this "fuck you J_C and your storyfag cunts with your fake choices, we are making a RPG driven by the player actions that is trying to be a videogame, not a novel, tv show, comic book or movie or anything else". It worked wonders for Fargo and his "fuck you publishers" pitch.
Hey, when did I step on your toe? :D
 

Apexeon

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Just come back with a manifesto for their design philosophy on the pitch, something like this "fuck you J_C and your storyfag cunts with your fake choices, we are making a RPG driven by the player actions that is trying to be a videogame, not a novel, tv show, comic book or movie or anything else". It worked wonders for Fargo and his "fuck you publishers" pitch.

:bro:
 

Athelas

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Just come back with a manifesto for their design philosophy on the pitch, something like this "fuck you J_C and your storyfag cunts with your fake choices, we are making a RPG driven by the player actions that is trying to be a videogame, not a novel, tv show, comic book or movie or anything else". It worked wonders for Fargo and his "fuck you publishers" pitch.
I'm pretty sure being able to invoke the almighty names of Fallout and Torment is what worked for Fargo. These guys made some obscure games decades ago that only Codexers care about.
 

Roguey

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Must be a drag to be TSI, having to deal with indifference from most people and a fanbase that wants them to regurgitate the same style of game that everyone got sick of over 20 years ago because they ran it into the ground.
 

mondblut

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the_guild_cast_cosplay_felicia_day_wallpaper-1280x800-1080x675.jpg

332878.jpg


if that is their target auditory, I am not going to mourn SDS.
 

rezaf

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You don't think I'm aware of that? Besides Minecraft, there's also the hugely succesful Hotline Miami that uses a very pixely art style. But different genres have different expectations. What part of 'full-scale RPG' in my post don't you understand? These games are also one in a kind in many ways, so I'm not sure they make for a convincing argument.

Easy bro. All I was trying to say was that a good game can have success regardless of it's art style. Arguably, even Dwarf Fortress - without anything that really deserves the name graphic (unless you're using mods and external tools) enjoys a measure of success. It's all a question of what audience you're going for and/or whether the rest of your game is good enought so players are willing to overlook the graphics.
Besides, Minecraft doesn't look horrible. It's blocky, but not ugly.

"Full-scale RPG" is a very generic term. There are many full fledged RPGs with long winding storylines made in RPGMaker out there. I'm not into console style RPGs, but they're there and have an audience - that accepts their rather minimalist graphics. Most don't look "bad" per se, especially if you're into the asian style with the huge heads and stuff, but they're 2D and totally not state-of-the-art.

Maybe I'm totally on the wrong track, but in my opinion, these guys ought to embrace their niche-ness and really try to get that old audience which actually had an idea who they are in the boat.
And I bet most of those are willing to accept a game which doesn't come with 3D graphics that put Dragon Age Inquisition to shame or something.

These guys made some obscure games decades ago that only Codexers care about.

Then again, this may very well be correct. I have a feeling that many gamers, both here and elsewhere, are aware of the Goldbox games, and for a majority of those gamers it's fond memories, but if that's not the case...
But then their pitch needs to be better still as to draw in "unsuspecting" gamers.

Must be a drag to be TSI, having to deal with indifference from most people and a fanbase that wants them to regurgitate the same style of game that everyone got sick of over 20 years ago because they ran it into the ground.

Well, I think most of us "got sick" with the Goldbox games (I bought them all till the end though) because they were slow to freshen up the mix with some innovations. In the very end we saw some neat stuff like reinforcements and whatnot, but it was too little too late.

And we'd seen the entire "from rags to riches" powercurve at least twice, in the Forgotten Realms and Krynn - which is why I'm not at all opposed if they don't use D&D - there's much more exciting systems out there to copy.

Now, when I'm muttering about retro style graphics and stuff, it's not because that's the best thing I can imagine, but because it's the thing that seems most feasible on a pretty tight budget.
If I could wish, the 2D view would be a bit like Grimrock and the tactical combat a mixture of ToEE, Silent Storm and NuXCOM (and I'm not a big fan of XCOM - but it is slick and polished) ... I'm trying to be realistic, though.
 

Darkzone

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if that is their target auditory, I am not going to mourn SDS.

It is worse they are catering to the SWJ gay loving crowd off extra credit.



I don't think, that they are really that committed to their project in the way it should be, and certainly they are not willing to fight for this project to the end. So my pledge in their second run is rather unlikely, and they can only change my opinion if they present me something very interesting (that currently i have not seen). In my book they have committed too many mistakes in their campaign, and as i said at the beginning of their kickstarter: they should have done their homework before launching their kickstarter, and not at the middle of it. But to cancel their campaign before even the first half was over and not even informing their backers a few days before it, is just plain arrogant and blindsided.
 

ArchAngel

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Presentation is half the sale. I have watched couple of KS videos that got me thinking about supporting them half way through the video although they were for games that I normally don't play (or I stoped playing). If I lived in a proper country and actually had extra money I probably would have supported those KSs.

If a game company cannot create a video that will excite us about their game, how can they expect us to trust them they will make a game that will be lots of fun to play.
 

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