Vapourware Seven Dragon Saga - Gold Box spiritual successor from SSI veterans

[Bubbles]

I think it was posted as magazine scan pages ago, by Infinitron.

Hm, interview is dated yesterday.

 

[LESS T_T]

I think it was posted as magazine scan pages ago, by Infinitron.

Hm, interview is dated yesterday.

I've found it. It's same content.

What's this, then?

Spoiler

 

[SausageInYourFace]

What a pity. Why the hell do they upload it without any indication whatsoever that its actually months old.

 

[a Goat]

SSI made lots of good games, like the Phantasies, Demon's Winter and Sword or Aragon, but I can't recall anyone being better than the Gold Box games.

Steel Panthers.

 

[Null Null]

Silly question...these guys are famous for Gold Box games, and we all want another one, really...why not just make one?

File off enough serial numbers to avoid lawsuits from Hasbro (no Beholders, etc.), raise the resolution to a point where our eyes won't hurt, and just make a square dungeon crawler with tactical combat like they did in 1990. I don't think it would take these guys that long, and there are enough low-end games going for $3 or so (Cthulhu Saves the World comes to mind) that people enjoy that they might be able to make it up on volume. Quit trying to make the new new thing and make the old thing everyone liked. What am I missing?

 

[Zombra]

What am I missing?

The fact that these are creative people with better ideas than "Yet Another Complete Rehash, Volume XIV". You don't have to like an artist's new work, but expecting them to keep doing the exact same thing they were doing 20 years ago is pretty insulting.

 

[Mustawd]

What am I missing?

The fact that these are creative people with better ideas than "Yet Another Complete Rehash, Volume XIV". You don't have to like an artist's new work, but expecting them to keep doing the exact same thing they were doing 20 years ago is pretty insulting.

http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/inde...2-years-mostly-from-his-basement.97207/unread


I don't think it's insulting. Look at Vogel. The guy has released different games on two or three engines for decades. They're nice games if a bit...quirky. And let's not confuse fine art with commercial art. The latter, in which RPGs fall under IMO, is full of "more of the same". Just look at someone like Frank Frazetta. He made his career with commercial fantasy art. Now there's literally tons of people who do the same thing he did.

Not saying you can't deviate at all from your original formula..but like they say. "if it aint broke, don't fix it". I mean if they released an isometric TB combat, first person exploration type game, with Vogel style (new ones) graphics...I'd pee my pants and give them all my money (or proper remake of Realms of Arkania ). Seriously...what's wrong with that?

 

[Zombra]

"if it aint broke, don't fix it"

This applies better to engineering and mechanics than creative pursuits.

Look at Vogel. The guy has released different games on two or three engines for decades. They're nice games if a bit...quirky. And let's not confuse fine art with commercial art. The latter, in which RPGs fall under IMO, is full of "more of the same". Just look at someone like Frank Frazetta. He made his career with commercial fantasy art. Now there's literally tons of people who do the same thing he did. I mean if they released an isometric TB combat, first person exploration type game, with Vogel style (new ones) graphics...I'd pee my pants and give them all my money (or proper remake of Realms of Arkania). Seriously...what's wrong with that?

There's nothing "wrong" with someone choosing to rehash rehash rehash. But looking at it as some kind of mistake to try to do something new, especially in this case where everything we've seen is more interesting than the Gold Box stuff, is dumb.

And as for "all your money" - money is nice, but it's not the reason any of these guys are in this business.

I don't think it's insulting.

I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that you haven't done much creative work. "I liked your first album, why didn't you just record more exactly like it over and over for 20 years?" is not going to make your favorite band think you're cool.

 

[Mustawd]

"if it aint broke, don't fix it"

This applies better to engineering and mechanics than creative pursuits.

Look at Vogel. The guy has released different games on two or three engines for decades. They're nice games if a bit...quirky. And let's not confuse fine art with commercial art. The latter, in which RPGs fall under IMO, is full of "more of the same". Just look at someone like Frank Frazetta. He made his career with commercial fantasy art. Now there's literally tons of people who do the same thing he did. I mean if they released an isometric TB combat, first person exploration type game, with Vogel style (new ones) graphics...I'd pee my pants and give them all my money (or proper remake of Realms of Arkania). Seriously...what's wrong with that?

There's nothing "wrong" with someone choosing to rehash rehash rehash. But looking at it as some kind of mistake to try to do something new, especially in this case where everything we've seen is more interesting than the Gold Box stuff, is dumb.

Hmm, not sure I or anyone else is saying it's a "wrong" approach. Just that it's not necessarily the only approach. As in why try to reinvent the wheel on your first attempt? You have limited name recognition since your games are older (to be fair the new Looking Glass also had this issue; As did Fargo's team to a lesser extent; Obsidian less so), your marketing skills suck, and you're using placeholder Unity graphics to showcase your game.

Why not build a base with loyal fans wanting more of what they loved and currently crave? It's just an alternative that's less of a reach than trying to go for broke. Don't see the issue here.

And as for "all your money" - money is nice, but it's not the reason any of these guys are in this business.

Right...as in money to make the RPGs they want...no one said a low budget attempt has to be the ONLY thing they do. But at the very least it helps to garner an audience, create hype, and build credibility. I mean people who loved the Gold Box Games would love more Gold Box-type games. Not sure why this is so hard to understand. And if some of these companies had longer term visions and some business sense they'd understand this can work in their favor for future games.

I don't think it's insulting.

I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that you haven't done much creative work. "I liked your first album, why didn't you just record more exactly like it over and over for 20 years?" is not going to make your favorite band think you're cool.

Sorry, done my share of creative work (albeit at a smaller and amateur level). The reality is that any creative person needs to build an audience first. Sometimes that audience is enough for you to stretch yourself creatively. Sometimes it takes a bit more work to get there (see this link if you want an example of what i mean...yes, the process can suck..hard)

I just think there's no reason they couldn't create a more limited scope game to showcase their talents before becoming a bigger enterprise. Again, I don't see how that's insulting to at least ask for more of the same great product they've previously worled on before I take more of a chance on a slightly different product. But different strokes I suppose...

 

[Zombra]

Hmm, not sure I or anyone else is saying it's a "wrong" approach.

Null Null said, "I don't get it. Why don't they do a rehash?" as if doing a rehash was the obvious "right" choice. That's what I was responding to.

Why not build a base with loyal fans wanting more of what they loved and currently crave? It's just an alternative that's less of a reach than trying to go for broke. Don't see the issue here.

Of course making a rehash is less of a reach and has a bigger likely payoff. That still doesn't make it a no-brainer to tread old ground when you're bursting with new ideas. The safe bet is not the ONLY bet to make, nor even necessarily the best bet.

Right...as in money to make the RPGs they want...

"Get rich doing years of work you don't enjoy, then you can be creative." How many great artists out there wouldn't exist at all if everyone lived by this attitude?

I mean people who loved the Gold Box Games would love more Gold Box-type games. Not sure why this is so hard to understand. And if some of these companies had longer term visions and some business sense they'd understand this can work in their favor for future games.

It's not hard to understand at all. As you said, it's also not necessarily the "right" approach. My objection to this "business school first, art school second" assumption is that it is the "right" approach to the best creative work.

Sorry, done my share of creative work (albeit at a smaller and amateur level). The reality is that any creative person needs to build an audience first. Sometimes that audience is enough for you to stretch yourself creatively. I just think there's no reason they couldn't create a more limited scope game to showcase their talents before becoming a bigger enterprise. Again, I don't see how that's insulting to at least ask for more of the same great product they've previously worled on before I take more of a chance on a slightly different product. But different strokes I suppose...

It sounds like a sensible plan, and I can see the value in it - but there is also value in trying something new and not letting good ideas go to waste. These guys aren't going to be around forever even if they all win the lottery. I would rather see their best ideas manifested imperfectly than a decade of bland cash-ins.

 

[Abelian]

I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that you haven't done much creative work. "I liked your first album, why didn't you just record more exactly like it over and over for 20 years?" is not going to make your favorite band think you're cool.

Unless the favorite band happens to be AC/DC

I'm sick to death of people saying we've made 11 albums that sounds exactly the same, In fact, we've made 12 albums that sound exactly the same.

Anyway, I don't blame the devs for taking a game with a slightly non-traditional setting and look forward to hearing more from TSI.

 

[Null Null]

OK, what Zombra said makes sense.

I always saw game design as somewhere between engineering and art, to be honest--people whose personality traits are intermediate between those of engineers and creative artists would be drawn to it.

It's not what I would do, but then again, I'm not a successful designer!

 

[ProphetSword]

"I liked your first album, why didn't you just record more exactly like it over and over for 20 years?" is not going to make your favorite band think you're cool.

And yet, everyone always gets excited when a band goes back to the formula that made them famous after 20 or so years of not doing that thing everyone loved. Like when Metallica went back to thrash metal for an album.

Or when a classic band gets back together after having not been together in a long time. Like when the Eagles reformed.

A new Gold-Box game might be like that. It's been out of fashion long enough to be cool again.

 

[Zombra]

"I liked your first album, why didn't you just record more exactly like it over and over for 20 years?" is not going to make your favorite band think you're cool.

And yet, everyone always gets excited when a band goes back to the formula that made them famous after 20 or so years of not doing that thing everyone loved. Like when Metallica went back to thrash metal for an album.

Or when a classic band gets back together after having not been together in a long time. Like when the Eagles reformed.

A new Gold-Box game might be like that. It's been out of fashion long enough to be cool again.

I don't disagree with any of that, but you may have missed my point.

 

[ProphetSword]

I wouldn't be surprised. I frequently miss the point.

 

[Abelian]

Zombra was looking from the point of view of the band/developers, not the audience. The diehard fans will always be satisfied by more of the same, but the content creators may feel they've stagnated.

 

[ProphetSword]

I didn't miss the point, then. My point is that if you stop doing what you've been doing for 20 or more years, sometimes doing it again is what you need to do. That applies in this case. It isn't like Gold-Box games have been coming out every year since 1992.

 

[tuluse]

More importantly, when you're asking people for their money, you have to actually make what they want, not what you want.

Not that it's clear there is some high demand for Goldbox style games. If anything it's clear the audience found Baldur's Gate style better.

 

[ProphetSword]

What tuluse said.

You can be as artsy and free as you want to be on your own money, but when you want money from other people, you have to deliver a product that they want. That's just how it works. We're not likely to pay Metallica, for example, to record a hipster jazz album with special guest vocals by Miley Cyrus. Deliver what people want or do it on your own dime.

 

[Zombra]

My point is that it comes down to purpose.

If these guys called each other up and said, "Hey, let's make a crowdfunded game of some kind," and that's all they wanted to do, then a low-denominator approach would have been more appropriate.

If, however, as I suspect, they are specifically excited about working on this particular, perhaps less salable concept (translating the super fun new P&P system they built in their garage), then spending years on a passionless "cash-in" project first is a less obvious choice. Rebuilding their brand name, stockpiling money, and so forth is definitely a strategy that could work, but if I were them I would be excited about working on 7DS now - and in my uneducated opinion they are far from out of options to do just that.

To use your analogy, if Metallica are excited about doing a jazz album, they should do it while the urge is fresh, even if they're broke and can't hire a cutting edge studio. By the time they hacked out 2 or 3 mediocre, mass market metal albums to pay for a high-profile version of the jazz album they wanted to do in the first place, they might be sick of each other or dead or simply not chuffed about it any more, and a crazy awesome jazz album might be lost forever. I'd rather have it in low fidelity than never hear it at all.

 

[ProphetSword]

We're not really disagreeing here. To use the Metallica analogy again, if they want to record that hipster jazz album with Miley Cyrus on vocals, that's fine. But, they shouldn't be surprised when no one wants to buy it or no studio wants to put forth money for them to complete it.

 

[ERYFKRAD]

hipster jazz album with Miley Cyrus on vocals

What heresy is this.

 

[ProphetSword]

hipster jazz album with Miley Cyrus on vocals

What heresy is this.

See...here's a good example. ERYFKRAD would clearly not pay to support this idea, either.

Incidentally, what the hell were we talking about again?

 

[GlutenBurger]

To be honest, I like neither Metallica nor Miley Cyrus, and am suspicious of hipsters, but if Metallica were to try and release a hipster jazz album with Miley Cyrus on vocals I would throw more money at it than I have at any other Kickstarter. The concept would simply be too absurd to allow to expire.

If Metallica were to try and produce electronic music in appeal to the current climate, however, I would probably ignore it unless I already had interest in Metallica, and I doubt electronic music advocates would give a damn about it.

 

[Alchemist]

Metallica already reached the heights of absurdity when they did that abominable album with Lou Reed: