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Shadowrun Shadowrun: Dragonfall - Director's Cut

tuluse

Arcane
Joined
Jul 20, 2008
Messages
11,400
Serpent in the Staglands Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Shadorwun: Hong Kong
Opinion.

I have a different definition of what is and isn't fun, and I certainly don't think that just because my character doesn't know everything or doesn't have the option of talking his/her/it's self out of every situation, regardless of the grounding that would be required to do so, makes something 'not fun'.

I actually think that a character having a specific set of skill abilities/knowledge makes the game better rather than being in a 'one stat for everything' situation.
I don't think you're actually responding to my criticisms of etiquettes anymore, but some imagined argument that I think all rpg characters should be able to do anything.
 

Ninjerk

Arcane
Joined
Jul 10, 2013
Messages
14,323
I would disagree with this.

I don't see why an overall charismatic person would be able to take advantage of individual skill knowledge.. maybe as a fasttalk, or bullshitter skill, but the individual checks usually take advantage of specific situations or situational knowledge. I find that use of these skills to be quite acceptable and therefore a reasonable justification for their design in this manner.
Because RPGs are not an attempt to recreate real life, they're an attempt to abstract it in a fun way. Etiquette are not fun, nor interesting. It's just blinding throwing darts and seeing what sticks. Especially if you take them after character generation and you are part way through the game.
How is this any different from choosing any skill in any RPG? I've never played an RPG that revealed relative numbers of skill checks across the entire experience.
 

SarcasticUndertones

Prospernaut
Joined
Nov 24, 2014
Messages
472
Opinion.

I have a different definition of what is and isn't fun, and I certainly don't think that just because my character doesn't know everything or doesn't have the option of talking his/her/it's self out of every situation, regardless of the grounding that would be required to do so, makes something 'not fun'.

I actually think that a character having a specific set of skill abilities/knowledge makes the game better rather than being in a 'one stat for everything' situation.
I don't think you're actually responding to my criticisms of etiquettes anymore, but some imagined argument that I think all rpg characters should be able to do anything.

And your criticism of etiquette was that you didn't know what one to pick before the game started, and that that was a bad design.
 

tuluse

Arcane
Joined
Jul 20, 2008
Messages
11,400
Serpent in the Staglands Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Shadorwun: Hong Kong
And your criticism of etiquette was that you didn't know what one to pick before the game started.
My criticism is that you have no idea what if anything each etiquette does.

There are many times when it seems one should provide the knowledge you want and doesn't because it's shitty design that relies of people hand making all content to fill it out.

And guess what? HBS agrees with me. That's why all the checks are for lame things like getting +100 dollars here and there.

edit:

How is this any different from choosing any skill in any RPG? I've never played an RPG that revealed relative numbers of skill checks across the entire experience.
Oh I'm in the roguey/excidium camp that all cRPGs to date are poorly designed.
 

SarcasticUndertones

Prospernaut
Joined
Nov 24, 2014
Messages
472
My criticism is that you have no idea what if anything each etiquette does.

I can't agrue with you anymore.

RTFM.

I understood the relevance of it perfectly and I knew why it would be checked, I just didn't know when or how much it would be checked and I wouldn't want to.

EDIT... Sorry I phased out at your first line, but I re-read it and had to remark on the rest

And guess what? HBS agrees with me. That's why all the checks are for lame things like getting +100 dollars here and there.

If that's what you take away from this, and BTW that most certainly is not the only use for the etiquette checks, then you are misunderstanding something very basic about what's going on and I don't know what the hell it is so I can't tell you. As for them agreeing with you.. if you were to actually say that to them, I bet you they fucking wouldn't.

Also.. did you know that your "well they agree with me" comment comes across like verbally sticking your tongue out at me with your hands on your hips? :o

But I'm glad you have a camp to be apart of, personally I'd rather have an opinion of my own, wrong, right or absolutely goat buggeringly insane.
 
Last edited:

Ninjerk

Arcane
Joined
Jul 10, 2013
Messages
14,323
How is this any different from choosing any skill in any RPG? I've never played an RPG that revealed relative numbers of skill checks across the entire experience.
Oh I'm in the roguey/excidium camp that all cRPGs to date are poorly designed.
:excellent:

The only right answer. I still think it's silly to be :butthurt: about etiquettes, though.
 

DalekFlay

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Oct 5, 2010
Messages
14,118
Location
New Vegas
Much better than the etiquettes is how Serpent in the Staglands is handling the Aptitudes.
Woodwise allows you to talk with animals, linguists with people from other cultures, nobility gives you more options with high borne characters and you get the idea.

Well I think that was the exact intention in SRR as well. Security is for talking to cops, guards, etc. Corporate is for talking to executives and employees. List goes on. I guess for many it just doesn't feel like it was used enough or had a big enough impact, and I agree with that.
 

almondblight

Arcane
Joined
Aug 10, 2004
Messages
2,549
Yeah, I prefer the etiquette system to the standard speech skill % system in a lot of ways. I guess it's a bit more obvious when designers get lazy in an etiquette system (say, not including any shadowrunner etiquette checks or something) than it is when designers get lazy in a speech skill % game (where in the last half of the game, a speech skill of 45% is as useful as a speech skill of 0%). But lazy designs in both systems suck.
 

Silva

Arcane
Joined
Jul 17, 2005
Messages
4,778
Location
Rio de Janeiro, Brasil
Does the Director Cut version add any c&c or world reactivity or open-endness to the game ? Because while I thought both campaigns quite interesting on their own (mostly due to the writing), without the above elements I cant shake the feeling Returns and Dragonfall are in reality glorified adventure games disguised as RPGs.
 

SarcasticUndertones

Prospernaut
Joined
Nov 24, 2014
Messages
472
Oh yeah, a lot more of everything. SRR and D: DC are two entirely different monsters.

He's talking about Dragonfall non-DC compared to Dragonfall DC.

OOPS.

But yeah lots more has been added and they are still two very different monsters.

No open world though and persistence is still a problem.

EDIT.. and I would certainly class it as a 'true' RPG. no adventure game syndrome in this release.
 

Heresiarch

Prophet
Joined
Mar 8, 2008
Messages
1,451
Does the Director Cut version add any c&c or world reactivity or open-endness to the game ? Because while I thought both campaigns quite interesting on their own (mostly due to the writing), without the above elements I cant shake the feeling Returns and Dragonfall are in reality glorified adventure games disguised as RPGs.

I've never played the original version, but I've heard that the DC added in at least 2 new endings and 5 new quests, including those summing up loose ends of the companions along with new C&C that DO matter.

I've just got one of the new ending (I've never seen the original, true ending yet, but what I saw was DEFINITELY one of the new ending), and it was awesome.
 

Roguey

Codex Staff
Staff Member
Sawyerite
Joined
May 29, 2010
Messages
35,653
That's why all the checks are for lame things like getting +100 dollars here and there.
Pretty big exception for that one run where certain etiquettes are needed to make it through the level without any combat. I thought it was one of those times where speech-as-a-win button felt fine, especially since I made the choice to free the clones at the end and had the advantage of a party at full health.
 

dryan

Arcane
Joined
Jan 14, 2014
Messages
1,443
That's why all the checks are for lame things like getting +100 dollars here and there.
Pretty big exception for that one run where certain etiquettes are needed to make it through the level without any combat. I thought it was one of those times where speech-as-a-win button felt fine, especially since I made the choice to free the clones at the end and had the advantage of a party at full health.
Aztechnlogy. BTW, you had more than just the security etiquette as a way of avoiding combat. With a certain level of charisma (5 I think) you would also get alternate dialogue options to skip the fights with Knight Errant.
 

Shadowfang

Arcane
Joined
Aug 27, 2009
Messages
2,002
Location
Road to Arnika
Shadorwun: Hong Kong BattleTech

SarcasticUndertones

Prospernaut
Joined
Nov 24, 2014
Messages
472
If i am not mistaken Security is one of the most common ettiquetes.

Then I must have a faulty brain, which I'm quite willing to admit.

Just starting another runthrough, mage I think this time, but I realise my etiquette last time was actually corporate, not Sec.. so yeah, faulty brain.
Corporate is nice but security is where the money is at.

I'll grab it this time at CHR 4, I took Street @ 2.
 

Jason Liang

Arcane
Joined
Oct 26, 2014
Messages
8,336
Location
Crait
I think of ettiquette in Dragonfall as a way of personalizing your character, not an extension of min/ maxing. It kind of makes sense that, on a corp run, Security would be more useful than Socialite or Academic. The ettiquettes are more for flavor, and a module can simply use a Charisma check to reward high charisma. Of course, there are other ways that a campaign can use ettiquette that would be more effective... if I ever get around to publishing a ugc I'll share some ideas. Like, for instance, Shadowrunner ettiquette should affect hiring mercenary shadowrunners, or open up npc side missions or something, while security is useful on corp runs, street to buy drugs and illegal gear, academic for education checks, etc...

Cihuaquatl, my second playthrough, is an Aztlan/ Chinese drug trafficker who follows Santa Muerte. The character creation system doesn't let me personalize her except by choosing Street etiquette for her. Even though Street is the most useless etiquette in Dragonfall, that's roleplaying. Joy. Think of choosing your etiquette like choosing a D&D alignment and you'll be happier.

Why complain about this when in nearly every NWN module Persuasion is used way more often than either Intimidate or Bluffing? Or even worse, the ToEE system which has like 5 different ettiquettes.
 

Phinx

Augur
Joined
Dec 15, 2013
Messages
107
It's a shame the modding community are still for the most part working solo, there is still potential for a decent UGC with a little team work in my opinion.
 

SwiftCrack

Arcane
Joined
Oct 3, 2012
Messages
1,836
It's a shame the modding community are still for the most part working solo, there is still potential for a decent UGC with a little team work in my opinion.

Definitely. I think the SNES remake is teamwork.
 

Phinx

Augur
Joined
Dec 15, 2013
Messages
107
It's a shame the modding community are still for the most part working solo, there is still potential for a decent UGC with a little team work in my opinion.

Definitely. I think the SNES remake is teamwork.

Yeah the Snes remake seems to be doing pretty well for the most part. The shadowrun identity crew (at least what's left of them anyways) are still working as a group too but struggling to get new blood and not really enough progress being made.

I tried to recruit people for my UGC as well but not much luck either, although I did get a very competent writer which is good.
 

MRSA

Scholar
Joined
May 14, 2010
Messages
247
Location
Your respiratory system
So, Dragonfall DC, two playthroughs, my largely irrelevant impressions in random order, here be spoilers, bite me.

- nice visuals
- pretty convincing SR atmosphere (i guess, haven't played PnP)
- passable UI
- relatively interesting main story
- predictable twist
- some interesting side missions
- some boring side missions (kill everyone, get out)
- companions are subpar
- companion missions uninteresting
- I can't stand dogs
- <CHARNAME> is the best fighter/mage/decker/whatever 'cause you can level him up right
- boring companion stories
- Matrix gameplay uninspired
- don't give a fuck about your totem Dietrich
- don't give a fuck about your army life Eiger
- don't give a fuck about your sob story Glory
- Blitz you're an ass
- melee/unarmed is hopeless (even as a physadept)
- WHERE ARE MY SPURS?
- Blitz's side mission (bank heist) badly scripted, freezes
- Eiger's side mission boring
- Glory's side mission mind raping boring
- Dietrich's side mission stupid (I don't care about your moron nephew chummer)
- geek the mage conjurer
- Zaak is a poser
- trolls stink
- WHERE'S MY BOOZE?
- fun combat (mostly)
- Blitz is mediocre decker (at best)/hopeless rigger

all in all :4/5:, gonna cheat myself an ultrasuperbadass shadowrunner and solo the game :dance:

EtA: all this DVD infodump walls of text makes MRSA want to blow his head off
 

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