Shadowrun Shadowrun modules

[Serious_Business]

Where did all the money go? New Spirit Models? Voice Over?

I'm not well informed on this, but I would assume that the original game cost more than 2mil. It probably required a bunch of investments - I doubt most kickstarter games are funded solely by the kickstarter money. What's your theory however - that they were lazy? Perhaps so, but even if HK cost so much less, it's not like the money would go into their pocket to buy luxury cars. They would need it for the company as a whole, to keep going in the future as well.

 

[Gord]

For a million dollars I would expect more content.

#1,836,447 Was the final budget for SRR - to do what?
$1,204,726 Was the budget for Hong Kong.
Where did all the money go?

They did run into quite a bit of financial trouble with SRR, didn't they? The whole Microsoft deal thing was due to them running out of money before it was ready, iirc.
As for Hong Kong, I'm just saying that you should consider that
a) right from the kickstarter it was clear that they aimed relatively low. They wanted to release half a year later and seemed to know relatively well what type of game they could and wanted to do within that time-budget. I'd wager that most of the things you'd like to see had at least significantly prolonged development time. And
b) one shouldn't underestimate the money it takes to pay a team, freelance work, the rent, taxes, etc. for several months AND make a profit in the end.

Btw, SR:HK did take me significantly longer than DMS. But maybe that's just me.

Anyway - this is the UGC thread, so maybe we should discuss this somewhere else.

I know you have me on ignore - but I had a game breaking bug in prosperity tower and couldn't continue without restarting the mission. (The doors weren't clickable from the lab)

I think we were talking about a bug in the Antumbra mod, not SR:HK.

 

[almondblight]

For a million dollars I would expect more content.

#1,836,447 Was the final budget for SRR - to do what? Make an entire game from scratch Assets / Models / Animation an entire fucking engine, spells, and a 25ish hour campaign (albeit somewhat mediocre)

$1,204,726 Was the budget for Hong Kong. We get huge chunks of reused assets / character abilities / spells / animations. The Engine is already done.. The Campaign was shorter too..

You don't see something wrong here? Common Gord.. Your smart.. let go of the fanboyism and just compare these two kickstarters..

They ended up doubling the team after the Kickstarter for SR:HK. They were also focused on sticking to their release target. Mitch says in an interview that they had another option for a matrix overhaul that would have taken twice as long, but ended up going with the current version because they didn't want to push back the release date. It seems like the mini-campaign might be expanded a bit, since they're pushing it back to early 2016. We'll see.

Also keep in mind that the last real stretch goal they had for the game was at the $700,000 mark. Then they threw in the mini-campaign when it kept going, and after that was hit they stopped doing stretch goals at all. Deciding not to completely re-scope the game mid-way through the Kickstarter isn't a bad thing; doing stuff like that has completely screwed up Kickstarters in the past (and they tend to get laughed at when it's the case: "Why'd you waste time with that ridiculous stretch goal instead of just delivering the game you initially were pitching?").

 

[Immortal]

What's your theory however - that they were lazy?

Not lazy.. but definitely not going the extra mile when they could. They definitely pocketed some of that cash for something unrelated to Hong Kong.

They ended up doubling the team after the Kickstarter for SR:HK. They were also focused on sticking to their release target. Mitch says in an interview that they had another option for a matrix overhaul that would have taken twice as long, but ended up going with the current version because they didn't want to push back the release date. It seems like the mini-campaign might be expanded a bit, since they're pushing it back to early 2016. We'll see.

Also keep in mind that the last real stretch goal they had for the game was at the $700,000 mark. Then they threw in the mini-campaign when it kept going, and after that was hit they stopped doing stretch goals at all. Deciding not to completely re-scope the game mid-way through the Kickstarter isn't a bad thing; doing stuff like that has completely screwed up Kickstarters in the past (and they tend to get laughed at when it's the case: "Why'd you waste time with that ridiculous stretch goal instead of just delivering the game you initially were pitching?").

Doubled the Team Size but gave us half the content..

I wasn't saying they should make bullshit stretch goals.. I was saying when they finished the Hong Kong Campaign and realize that it amounted to half the missions / content of Dragon Fall.. then maybe they could have made a bit more content to justify the wheel barrel of money they got. As I said - they definitely pocketed some of that cash for who knows what..

It felt like a filler campaign to keep the lights on and I just hope the next Shadow Run Game we see has some more effort put in if they are gonna get 1.2 million and keep using the same assets and engine.
(Which is fine - I think the art aesthetics look great.. but maybe it could last longer then 17 hours and maybe you could design a new spell or two?)

 

[Gord]

Doubled the Team Size but gave us half the content..

They gave us what they had promised. Just not exactly what many of us might have hoped for.
Still, I don't see any wrongdoing on their part, there's nothing that says that a dev has to expand scope if he ends up with more money during KS than he asked for.
And as almondblight has pointed out, there's the additional mini-campaign remaining as well.
Making a profit (if they did, I don't know their complete budget) isn't wrong or dishonest, and in the end they likely made less money that way than they could have otherwise. Backers usually get the game cheaper.

 

[Immortal]

They gave us what they had promised. Just not exactly what many of us might have hoped for.
Still, I don't see any wrongdoing on their part, there's nothing that says that a dev has to expand scope if he ends up with more money during KS than he asked for.
And as almondblight has pointed out, there's the additional mini-campaign remaining as well.
Making a profit (if they did, I don't know their complete budget) isn't wrong or dishonest, and in the end they likely made less money that way than they could have otherwise. Backers usually get the game cheaper.

The Mini-Campaign will cost extra for those who didn't Kickstart and it just seems lame..
Especially when you see Swen posting videos about Divinity and he looks like hes on a cocaine binge because he's just happy to be making games.

It would be nice to not be taken advantage of.. or just see some passion.. "Oh look we made 400 000 more then we expected.. lets just deliver exactly what we said we would because fuck it"

I know I am arguing with someone who literally has a Shadow Run Portrait - Don't expect to convince you of anything.. The hand waving of facts is legendary on this site.

 

[almondblight]

Doubled the Team Size but gave us half the content..

Eh, doubled the team from what it had been before the Kickstarter campaign started, not what it had been during Dragonfall. Not sure how big the team was for Dragonfall/DC or how much they cost; according to Roguey, HBS had run out of money (and maybe taking out loans?) by the time DMS was released (I'd imagine most of the funding for Dragonfall/DC came from DMS sales). So it doesn't make sense to say "1.8 million got us DMS and Dragonfall/DC plus the engine, 1.2 only got us HK [...plus the mini-campaign]." We don't know what the actual cost was for any of the SR games, only how much was raised on KS.

I wasn't saying they should make bullshit stretch goals.. I was saying when they finished the Hong Kong Campaign and realize that it amounted to half the missions / content of Dragon Fall.. then maybe they could have made a bit more content to justify the wheel barrel of money they got. As I said - they definitely pocketed some of that cash for who knows what..

It seems like they did have some extra money, which is why we're getting the mini-campaign. I suppose they could have used that money in order to push back the initial release, but it seems they didn't want to do that - probably because they want to move a large portion of the team to Battletech soon. Adding additional content post-release rather than delaying the initial release isn't a terrible decision (particularly since I'm not a big fan of companies changing the scope of the game based on how much they raise).

 

[Immortal]

It seems like they did have some extra money, which is why we're getting the mini-campaign.

The mini-campaign will cost money for people who didn't kickstart the game.. It just sounds like another milking of their engine without investment on their part.. I mean if Hong Kong isn't considered a mini-campaign.. then this thing is gonna be what.. 6 hours long?

So it doesn't make sense to say "1.8 million got us DMS and Dragonfall/DC plus the engine, 1.2 only got us HK [...plus the mini-campaign]."

Good point - I also forgot to include all the sales they got from Dragon Fall / Dead Mans Switch when factoring the fund overflow they had for Hong Kong.

 

[Gord]

Especially when you see Swen posting videos about Divinity and he looks like hes on a cocaine binge because he's just happy to be making games.

What does Larian have to do with it?
But if you want to talk about them - the D:OS Kickstarter in particular did overpromise and underdeliver quite a bit. Yes, they are enthusiastic about their games, which is great. But they are also relatively bad at estimating how much time and money it will take to realize their visions. They are bros, though, which is why I'm willing to forgive them.

That HBS managed to stay relatively humble throughout the entire campaign, even when they made much more money is actually quite refreshing after so many other Kickstarters ending up a bit over-enthusiastic.
Sure I'd like to play an even bigger, improved SR:HK, but they preferred to not take the risk of going overboard again and simply delivered what was promised.

 

[almondblight]

The mini-campaign will cost money for people who didn't kickstart the game.. It just sounds like another milking of their engine without investment on their part.. I mean if Hong Kong isn't considered a mini-campaign.. then this thing is gonna be what.. 6 hours long?

Well if someone didn't KS the thing, then why are they wringing their hands about where the KS money is going? The KS backers got HK and the expansion for $15. I'd say that's a pretty good deal; unlike most KS, they delivered what they promised on time, and it looks like they may have expanded the length of the additional content (since they pushed back the date).

If you're not a KS backer - why would you think that you should be able to get the expansion for free simply because the people who did back it on KS raised extra money? That doesn't make any sense.

Good point - I also forgot to include all the sales they got from Dragon Fall / Dead Mans Switch when factoring the fund overflow they had for Hong Kong.

...and forgot that Dragonfall/DC wasn't made with KS money, so we can't say that last time they gave us Dragonfall/DC (and DMS) with 1.8 million.

 

[Immortal]

If you're not a KS backer - why would you think that you should be able to get the expansion for free simply because the people who did back it on KS raised extra money? That doesn't make any sense.

I don't - but it's not a selling point of Hong Kong then.
You keep bringing it up like "oh and don't forget the mini campaign they are giving us" when really the only reason they are doing it is to get more money without having to invest anything in assets or engine.

It has nothing to do with Hong Kong, It's not included with Hong Kong so there is no point bringing it up when discussing the lack of content Hong Kong provided.

(Hong Kong has a price tag of 21.99 - What tier did you ks it at?)

 

[almondblight]

I don't - but it's not a selling point of Hong Kong then.

Huh? It most definitely is if you're talking about the Kickstarter money, which you were. If you are talking about the content provided by Hong Kong in relation to the amount of money raised by Kickstarter then the mini-campaign, made with money from the Kickstarter, is very much part of the equation.

1. KS backers are getting the mini-campaign for free.
2. It was the a KS stretch goal - they explicitly said pledge more money so we'll create this.

To say that the money that went to the mini-campaign somehow doesn't count as a KS expenditure just because people who bought the game post-release aren't getting it for free doesn't make any sense at all. That's what a good chunk of the money is being used for; that's a reward that KS backers are going to get.

(Hong Kong has a price tag of 21.99 - What tier did you ks it at?)

$15, which got you the campaign and the mini-campaign.

 

[V_K]

Sure I'd like to play an even bigger, improved SR:HK, but they preferred to not take the risk of going overboard again and simply delivered what was promised.

Unfortunately, they underdelivered on quite a few promises. "Animatic scene transitions" are not in, only intro, dream sequence and ending. "Sculpted systems" turned out a different hue and two lion statues in the Prosperity tower matrix. As for "Expanded magic" - it's been done, but really half-assed. The dragon lines basically just add spell bouncing, the shrine spirits are just your usual elemental spirits that don't break free, and instead of spell foci we got exactly 3 items that boost Wil or Cha when you carry them around.
HBS guys are good at cutting corners in such a way that doesn't damage the game too much, but they still do cut them, just like everyone else.

As for the game length, though, if CRPGAddict is to be trusted, 18-20 hours is the average length of Goldbox games, which also reused most assets but cost quite a bit more than SR.

 

[AetherVagrant]

Just finished and greatly enjoined the Mercurial module. It felt a lot like Mona Lisa Overdrive but if the singer was even lamer, but it was still way better than Dead Man's switch, and blended the gritty neuromancer feel with goofy shadowrun stuff pretty well.

 

[Zetor]

Dragon lines can actually have a lot of effects (including applying any spell effect to the caster or the target)... most of them just have spell bouncing, though.

Spoiler

 

[V_K]

Dragon lines can actually have a lot of effects (including applying any spell effect to the caster or the target)

They can, but I don't think any of those the in main campaign do.

 

[Zetor]

There was at least one dragon line (in the Bad Qi mission, near the back of the room) that did a constant +4 HP regen each turn, at least... but yea, most of the dragon lines were the "extra bounce" variety (it also applies to powerbolt, btw!)

e: also, wrt spell foci, I think they may have also referred to the "boosted" spells you can buy (they do have 'focus' in their name after all), like the armor strip spell that refunds its AP the next turn, or the fireball with the extended AOE radius.

 

[eXalted]

Well, it is of course always possible that I just had bad karma, after all, Gord and eXalted didn't seem to complain about any bugs, so I wonder what they are thinking?

I remember having the "unable to click anywhere" bug 1 or 2 times but that was it. My playthrough was almost bug free, so maybe it's bad luck you had. I've heard that the engine is not always running the same scenes the same way. You can have a scripted scene, run it 10 times and 1 of them will have something slightly off.

Antumbra definitely becomes better with each act but I couldn't fully enjoy it because Emperor Norton was very annoying to me. I read his dialogue diagonally and that's something I rarely do.

After completing SRHK, I'll return to Mercurial as it seems very promising.

I started creating a small UGC, have the overall plot outlined but will see if it's going to be finished. It'll depend on the interest on Act I.

 

[Goral]

Some Pole has created a short campaign for Shadowrun Returns. By the looks of it it's quite interesting so if you know Polish you might give it a try:

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=739851593&searchtext=Do+samego+konca
http://www.nexusmods.com/shadowrunreturns/mods/252/?

To mod who moved my post: I'm not shitting you. I've tried searching "Shadowrun returns" and such obscure thread as this did not appear so I've posted it in the first relevant one. If the title would be "Shadowrun / Dragonfall" I might have had a chance to find it but since it was "Shadowrun/Dragonfall" (which is a single string of letters) I couldn't find it. Get off your high horse.

 

[Delterius]

Well, seems like there's no unified thread for Shadowrun. While I hope for a nice discount on S:HK next friday, I was wondering if anyone played a fan campaign for any of the three games that was worth checking out. Seems like this wiki page covers quite a few of them.

EDIT: Oh, this thread exists. Thank you ghost moderator.

 

[eXalted]

Nightmare Harvest

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=205626014

It's for DMS, but it's totally worth it. Nice noir atmosphere, good writing and no quest compass.


I'm currently waiting for continuation of this module - https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=439138558

 

[almondblight]

Huh, the Shadowrun Unlimited guy is making his own hacking RPG thing.

 

[Tom Baker's Arse]

Huh, the Shadowrun Unlimited guy is making his own hacking RPG thing.

Thanks for the link. I'm one of the ones that didn't enjoy the decking side of things in the Shadowrun cRPGs, just didn't like the way they were implemented, especially in HK. Still enjoy the pnp version of the SR system.