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Shadowrun Shadowrun: Hong Kong - Extended Edition

InD_ImaginE

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Pathfinder: Wrath
What kind of fucking dickheads don't give a release date? Maybe I would be excited if you fucking pricks gave a date, but in lieu of excitement I now just have more resentment towards you since you are doing the old dangle the candy in front of the baby trick. Fuck you.

I am really starting to hate these fucks. Why does it take so long to make five hours of content when you have all the assets already?

Why do you keep spending the money we give you for Shadowrun on non-shadowrun shit? Is there anyone who believes SRHK had a million dollars worth of improvement? But now, after two kickstarters, and having all the assets in place, and enough capital to make super fun console action games with no rpg elements, they are saying fuck it and treating all the assets we funded as sunk costs instead of making a SR game that isn't kickstarted. This guarantees a new kickstarter for their new super full 3d SR when they return to it in a couple years after running out of funds doing stupid shit the people that put you on the map don't give a fuck about.

Its funny, before WL2 I honestly had zero faith in inXile to the point were I completely and honestly did not believe they would release an only TB game and it would have a surprise hybrid TB/RTwP model a la Arcanum we wuld find out about at release. Then, they released the DC well ahead of time to PC players, and it fixed everything that needed to be fixed with the game. I believed HBS and Larian were the good guys back then. Now, after ConsoleSven stated he prefers to play games with consoles and improved absolutely nothing that needed to be improved with the actual game with the EE, they released it to consoles first, and not the fucking people who made the fucking game possible. And to add insult to injury it did absolutely nothing. It was pure console improvements to superficial bullshit that didn't matter and didn't''t address what needed to be addressed to make DOS an actual better game.

I'm really sick of these little uppity bitches stabbing crpg players in the back after relying on us to pay the bills and fund their games so they can dream about being the next Bioware or Bethesda or Square Enix or whatever console developers are big these days. Its sad when I trust the console developer, inXile, far more than these sleazy backstabbing console dreamers.

I don't know mate, because it's a business maybe? Because people actually dream about getting rich and have a good life?
Their commitment to crpg players is paid in full. Their commitment to backers is that they will deliver the backed games and they did. They were not funding: "Hey it's HBS and we will be opening CRPG exclusive company! Back us and we will make CRPG forever!"

As to why the development of the DLC takes so long, maybe most of the team moved elsewhere, with them having a new project (BT).
 

Roqua

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I don't know mate, because it's a business maybe? Because people actually dream about getting rich and have a good life?
Their commitment to crpg players is paid in full. Their commitment to backers is that they will deliver the backed games and they did. They were not funding: "Hey it's HBS and we will be opening CRPG exclusive company! Back us and we will make CRPG forever!"

As to why the development of the DLC takes so long, maybe most of the team moved elsewhere, with them having a new project (BT).

So crpg players are just stepping stones and not a base? Mate. Console is the dream? Superficial games with all form and little function? Why not be honest about it and your companies plan so I know what companies to support and trust? Mate.

Paid in full? So you believe there was 1 million dollars worth of improvements in SRHK? Mate. And why did they move the team on instead of quickly delivering the content we paid for? Mate.

I guess if we take the essence of your message literally we can say companies have cart blanche ability to do what they want and fuck their customers? Fuck the stake holders. Fuck the people who invested the capital to put them on the map? That is good business. Very long sighted. Huh, mate? Sounds like my a fucking dreamy world. Huh, mate?

Businesses make decisions and paying customers have a right to like or not like the decisions and to take their business elsewhere. And potential customers have the right to know the long term objectives of a business the may or may not support depending on those objectives.
 

InD_ImaginE

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Pathfinder: Wrath
So crpg players are just stepping stones and not a base? Mate. Console is the dream? Superficial games with all form and little function? Why not be honest about it and your companies plan so I know what companies to support and trust? Mate.

Paid in full? So you believe there was 1 million dollars worth of improvements in SRHK? Mate. And why did they move the team on instead of quickly delivering the content we paid for? Mate.

I guess if we take the essence of your message literally we can say companies have cart blanche ability to do what they want and fuck their customers? Fuck the stake holders. Fuck the people who invested the capital to put them on the map? That is good business. Very long sighted. Huh, mate? Sounds like my a fucking dreamy world. Huh, mate?

Businesses make decisions and paying customers have a right to like or not like the decisions and to take their business elsewhere. And potential customers have the right to know the long term objectives of a business the may or may not support depending on those objectives.

Face it, if you are aiming to be a "hundred of thousand or more than a million of sales" kind of developer, it is not. Unless you have a great old names be part of your studio or you have some kind credential under your pocket, the CRPG players are small. The reason of decline, as codex put it, is because the largest market for video games is no longer on complex and deep kind of video games but the simplified, fun, sit in a couch and play with friends video games. Not exactly apple to apple and I don't fully agree with all the points but you read such discussion here: http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/inde...atalism-can-hardcore-rpgs-sell-better.106182/. And you know what? The fact that CRPG crowd is.. fickle in their response to game is another fucking reason not to invest in it.

Obisidan make World of Tank, I guess it is time to stop supporting them because they went shallow game with tank instead of my favorite CRPG snow and they didn't tell me about it 10 years ago.

Arguably, it is not 1miliion dollars of improvement. It may be "we hire more people this time to deliver the game faster" kind of million.
Because smaller content = smaller team, unlike what you would have to believe, there is a point when adding more people to a team might slow things down more. Besides that, the money from the kickstarter is essentially spent while they never really promised a deadline for the DLC. Meanwhile, they have a set deadline they need to deliver their next project (BT) on. A bigger company like CDPR, Larian, etc might have the resource to pull having two big teams working parallel. It is not a luxury every company have.

You are not investing capital in their company. Most Kickstarter is essentially pre-ordering concept, in which your return is the promised rewards on the kickstarter page. You were not funding the company,you were funding the product. If HBS were doing it's kickstarter like, let's say, Double Fine, the it is fine to be angry if HBS suddenly make another game other than CRPG. The direction of the company were not promised in their pitch.

Regarding long sighted, as I said, crpg base is not a healthy base to build on if you want to grow to be more than a small indie studio, so maybe their "long sight" is to diversify their products in order to be safe when certain CRPG base is no longer capable of supporting growth.
 

Roqua

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Fuck the people who invested the capital to put them on the map?

And by "invested capital" you mean donated money to a Kickstarter campaign for a game? :roll:

Get over yourself.

No. You get over yourself!!!!!!! You fucking morons and what you think is your witty one line zingers. Either fully express an idea of keep your mouth shut.

Do you understand what capital is? Capital was invested to create a game. How is this statement inaccurate?

So crpg players are just stepping stones and not a base? Mate. Console is the dream? Superficial games with all form and little function? Why not be honest about it and your companies plan so I know what companies to support and trust? Mate.

Paid in full? So you believe there was 1 million dollars worth of improvements in SRHK? Mate. And why did they move the team on instead of quickly delivering the content we paid for? Mate.

I guess if we take the essence of your message literally we can say companies have cart blanche ability to do what they want and fuck their customers? Fuck the stake holders. Fuck the people who invested the capital to put them on the map? That is good business. Very long sighted. Huh, mate? Sounds like my a fucking dreamy world. Huh, mate?

Businesses make decisions and paying customers have a right to like or not like the decisions and to take their business elsewhere. And potential customers have the right to know the long term objectives of a business the may or may not support depending on those objectives.

Face it, if you are aiming to be a "hundred of thousand or more than a million of sales" kind of developer, it is not. Unless you have a great old names be part of your studio or you have some kind credential under your pocket, the CRPG players are small. The reason of decline, as codex put it, is because the largest market for video games is no longer on complex and deep kind of video games but the simplified, fun, sit in a couch and play with friends video games. Not exactly apple to apple and I don't fully agree with all the points but you read such discussion here: http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/inde...atalism-can-hardcore-rpgs-sell-better.106182/. And you know what? The fact that CRPG crowd is.. fickle in their response to game is another fucking reason not to invest in it.

Obisidan make World of Tank, I guess it is time to stop supporting them because they went shallow game with tank instead of my favorite CRPG snow and they didn't tell me about it 10 years ago.

Arguably, it is not 1miliion dollars of improvement. It may be "we hire more people this time to deliver the game faster" kind of million.
Because smaller content = smaller team, unlike what you would have to believe, there is a point when adding more people to a team might slow things down more. Besides that, the money from the kickstarter is essentially spent while they never really promised a deadline for the DLC. Meanwhile, they have a set deadline they need to deliver their next project (BT) on. A bigger company like CDPR, Larian, etc might have the resource to pull having two big teams working parallel. It is not a luxury every company have.

You are not investing capital in their company. Most Kickstarter is essentially pre-ordering concept, in which your return is the promised rewards on the kickstarter page. You were not funding the company,you were funding the product. If HBS were doing it's kickstarter like, let's say, Double Fine, the it is fine to be angry if HBS suddenly make another game other than CRPG. The direction of the company were not promised in their pitch.

Regarding long sighted, as I said, crpg base is not a healthy base to build on if you want to grow to be more than a small indie studio, so maybe their "long sight" is to diversify their products in order to be safe when certain CRPG base is no longer capable of supporting growth.

First off, Obsidian is first and foremost a console developer. They have published exactly one crpg to date. I have never supported them or expect anything from them.

Second, you do not know how capital works or even what it is. Companies often need to raise capital for a specific product or a specific reason outside of their current scope or ability.

Third - what exactly are you arguing? Are you arguing that crpgs should not be made? Then why are there extremely successful kickstarters for crpgs? Are you saying everyone wants to be a console developer? Look what happened to Larian when they tried to be Bioware.

And you still are not clear on what you are arguing. So, in order for me to respond to the mess you call an argument let me ask some clarification questions to you.

Do you believe companies should blatantly disregard their current customer base they owe their success to?

Do you believe companies should have cart blanche ability to do whatever they want with no consequences?

Do you believe companies should be open and honest with their customers and potential customers about their goals and outlook when it comes to serving their current customers?

Do you believe customers have a right to support or not support certain activities of companies?

Do you believe a customer can be angry at a company for feeling the company does not value them as a customer?

If you shopped at a small, organic grocer because you believed in small, organic free-range animal-kindness grocers and you had a couple choices and you pick the one you believed is more inline with your philosophy on farming, society, food stuff, whatever. But, down the road you find out you shopping there has given them the money to buy a big super market that treats chickens and cows really bad and spanks them and calls them mean and hurtful names and sprays pesticide on lettuce and carrots and a bunch of other atrocities you are dead against. Would that customer not have a right to be angry?

Don't you think there is a certain expectation the customer had rightly assumed and is angry her money went to fund what she believed is evil and wrong?

Should the customer not say anything and have no feelings at all about this because the small organic, animal-kindness grocer had dreams of spanking chickens in cages and making fun of them in a non friendly manner because there are a lot more people that like big super markets and that is where the main food audience is?


Once you competently and clearly answer all these questions I will be glad to further this conversation with you, but as my analogy points out I am extremely right and you are completely wrong and your argument is nonsense. Hopefully by answering these questions you will be able to clarify your stance more competently and I will know exactly what you are arguing for.
 
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Jimmious

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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Roqua did you by any chance log approximately 1337 hours in any Shadowrun game?
These drivels seem kinda familiar. Don't start modding at least.
 

InD_ImaginE

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Pathfinder: Wrath

Ok.

My original post was my response to somebody that is angry about a company doing something that is contrary to nothing the aforementioned company promised in the past. I feel that it is just a business move, one that somewhat makes sense and is nothing some people need to be angry and feeling back-stabbed about.

Maybe I wasn't able to communicate and argue it as well as you did yours, but my points, in short:
1. What HBS is doing is simply a business move to stay afloat and grew as a developer.
2. I find it strange that people back some of their project need to be angry that HBS is diversifying its products, to the point of feeling back-stabbed.

It could be said that your view regarding Kicstarter is different than mine. For me as a customer, it's product promised, product delivered kind of deal (at least, on confine of Kicstarter that promised products) while you take a boarder investment understanding of it, on that front it is useless to argue.

Regarding what a company should do, I think it is whatever it should do to reach it's goal so long it's actions is within the law and it would take consequences of it's actions (e.g. losing sales from their old base).

Regarding company vision and goal, I believe that it is the agency of a business to share their business goal or not. I believe the relationship between a business and customer is with the confine of the product the customer bought/going to buy, not on higher company goal level.
When I buy a product I buy it in context of what I need and what market supply at the time. I never have such strong stance about anything in life, but using your analogy, so long the certain brand the company have still provide organic products that came from non-chicken-spanking farm, I would still buy it and I won't buy the products that is not organic from them. In HBS case, so long they make CRPGs I will buy them. I will not buy their action or board games (Necro-something and Golem Arcana).

Regarding whether a customer should be angry to and support a company based on it's goal, it is within every customer right to do so. I never see myself and a business outside the context of the products I bought. After all as they are only there to fulfill my need and for a company I am only a cow to milk money from by giving me my needs. Thus I find a person unnecessarily being angry on a company to be strange.
 

Fry

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Fuck the people who invested the capital to put them on the map?

And by "invested capital" you mean donated money to a Kickstarter campaign for a game? :roll:

Get over yourself.

No. You get over yourself!!!!!!! You fucking morons and what you think is your witty one line zingers. Either fully express an idea of keep your mouth shut.

Troll or babbling lunatic? :lol:

A Kickstarter donation is, at best, a purchase. Legally speaking it's not even that. Morally speaking, it entitles you to delivery of the product promised in the tier you backed. Nothing more, nothing less.

The company has no further obligation to you. It does, however, have real legal obligation to its employees and its investors and shareholders (if any). If you want to steer the direction of a game development company, feel free to start one yourself. Otherwise, STFU and do your talking with your wallet.
 

sstacks

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And the Codex reminds us all why we love it's crazy bubbly lunacy so much!
 

almondblight

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True. But still, they essentially made two full games off one KS campaign.

Also worth noting that Dragonfall was originally going to be ~6 hours long and released 3 months after SRR. HBS extended the development time and deepened the expansion in response to fans. Then they added a bunch more content and polish for the DC, which was free for anyone who had Dragonfall.
 

Anthedon

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Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire
Tried to start the game up in anticipation of the new campaign. But now all I get is a black screen. Seems one of the updates broke it, yay.

Hope they sort this out with the new patch.
 

Roqua

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So crpg players are just stepping stones and not a base? Mate. Console is the dream? Superficial games with all form and little function? Why not be honest about it and your companies plan so I know what companies to support and trust? Mate.

Paid in full? So you believe there was 1 million dollars worth of improvements in SRHK? Mate. And why did they move the team on instead of quickly delivering the content we paid for? Mate.

I guess if we take the essence of your message literally we can say companies have cart blanche ability to do what they want and fuck their customers? Fuck the stake holders. Fuck the people who invested the capital to put them on the map? That is good business. Very long sighted. Huh, mate? Sounds like my a fucking dreamy world. Huh, mate?

Businesses make decisions and paying customers have a right to like or not like the decisions and to take their business elsewhere. And potential customers have the right to know the long term objectives of a business the may or may not support depending on those objectives.

Face it, if you are aiming to be a "hundred of thousand or more than a million of sales" kind of developer, it is not. Unless you have a great old names be part of your studio or you have some kind credential under your pocket, the CRPG players are small. The reason of decline, as codex put it, is because the largest market for video games is no longer on complex and deep kind of video games but the simplified, fun, sit in a couch and play with friends video games. Not exactly apple to apple and I don't fully agree with all the points but you read such discussion here: http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/inde...atalism-can-hardcore-rpgs-sell-better.106182/. And you know what? The fact that CRPG crowd is.. fickle in their response to game is another fucking reason not to invest in it.

Obisidan make World of Tank, I guess it is time to stop supporting them because they went shallow game with tank instead of my favorite CRPG snow and they didn't tell me about it 10 years ago.

Arguably, it is not 1miliion dollars of improvement. It may be "we hire more people this time to deliver the game faster" kind of million.
Because smaller content = smaller team, unlike what you would have to believe, there is a point when adding more people to a team might slow things down more. Besides that, the money from the kickstarter is essentially spent while they never really promised a deadline for the DLC. Meanwhile, they have a set deadline they need to deliver their next project (BT) on. A bigger company like CDPR, Larian, etc might have the resource to pull having two big teams working parallel. It is not a luxury every company have.

You are not investing capital in their company. Most Kickstarter is essentially pre-ordering concept, in which your return is the promised rewards on the kickstarter page. You were not funding the company,you were funding the product. If HBS were doing it's kickstarter like, let's say, Double Fine, the it is fine to be angry if HBS suddenly make another game other than CRPG. The direction of the company were not promised in their pitch.

Regarding long sighted, as I said, crpg base is not a healthy base to build on if you want to grow to be more than a small indie studio, so maybe their "long sight" is to diversify their products in order to be safe when certain CRPG base is no longer capable of supporting growth.

Huh? I didn't ask you to paraphrase everything incorrect about your last post. I asked specific yes or no questions. If I wanted you to continue being wrong I would not have told you that you are wrong.
Fuck the people who invested the capital to put them on the map?

And by "invested capital" you mean donated money to a Kickstarter campaign for a game? :roll:

Get over yourself.

No. You get over yourself!!!!!!! You fucking morons and what you think is your witty one line zingers. Either fully express an idea of keep your mouth shut.

Troll or babbling lunatic? :lol:

A Kickstarter donation is, at best, a purchase. Legally speaking it's not even that. Morally speaking, it entitles you to delivery of the product promised in the tier you backed. Nothing more, nothing less.

The company has no further obligation to you. It does, however, have real legal obligation to its employees and its investors and shareholders (if any). If you want to steer the direction of a game development company, feel free to start one yourself. Otherwise, STFU and do your talking with your wallet.


Look, I have better things to do than debate if how I feel a company is behaving is in line with the type of company I want to support holds any validity to monkey idiots.


I also don’t have time to get into the minutia of business specifics with high school kids that have zero clue about business.


You truly are a moron with no understanding of pretty much anything and everything. What is capital? Funds to do something. What is funds? Currency used to spend on things to accomplish something. What is kickstarter? A possible means to generate capital for a specific purpose.


Please don’t talk about what is legal or not as that makes you look even dumber as this is a vast and often abused territory that is not the same per region and not as black and white as people claim. Just in the US, using different legal principles or case law can lead to different suspected outcomes for people in the same state, never mind across courts or the country, or when involving other countries.

The US alone has a living law that changes, and lawyers who specialized in specific types of law guess at legality until a case is heard.


Lastly, rpgcodex is filled with a bunch of shithouse lawyers who believe they are experts at the law when they are not even smart enough to understand when something is illegal or just goes against regulations.


Lastly, claiming you know the morality of something is absolutely ridiculous. Morals would fall under Ethics, which is a school of philosophy along with epistemology and metaphysics. Also, general morals are impacted by culture, and regional norms and mors. Also, by group belonging. Just in the US democrats and republics cannot decide within their own parties what they morally expect from companies.


What I morally expect from a company is to be truthful to me so I know to support them or not. Just as in my grocer analogy. You may think someone deciding not to shop at a specific grocer because their perceived morals are not in line with what the customer believes is ethical food growing or animal rearing. But what you think does not matter. This only involves the grocer and the possible customer.


I have no desire to support a wannabe Bethesda. I do not wish to fund companies that I believe mismanage the funds provided to them. I believe they have a fiduciary duty to their funders and two companies blatantly failed to meet that duty. I will no longer fund these companies. I no longer like these companies. These company’s goals and my goals do not jive. I believe them to be immoral and unethical. See how I qualified that with I believe? That is the only sane way to use them.


You little kid dumbfucks can have fun jerking off to whatever you want, but don’t tell me what I feel and believe is somehow invalid when you guys can’t even make a coherent or reasonable point.


Does anyone really think all the kickstarter money for SRHK went to SRHK? Does anyone think the game has 1mil worth of improvements? Okay, you guys keep being monkey idiots and console fans and I’ll keep fighting the good fight and sticking it to them and watching out for the little guys.

Okay, you guys keep on having fun being stupid and wrong you fucking apologist bleaters.
 

agris

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Despite disagreeing with your belief, your argument is well developed and logical. KS is a means to an end; a capital raising scheme with a non-binding agreement of goods delivered at some point in the future. If you disagree with how those funds are raised and/or used, you have every right to sever your connection with the company.

What I don't understand is, after your logical build-up to your conclusion, you state this:

Does anyone really think all the kickstarter money for SRHK went to SRHK? Does anyone think the game has 1mil worth of improvements? Okay, you guys keep being monkey idiots and console fans and I’ll keep fighting the good fight and sticking it to them and watching out for the little guys.

So let's be specific. HBS raised $1.2 million USD for HK. Kickstarter takes a 5% cut and a variable 3 - 5% cut of payments processed via KS. Let's ignore the payment processing fee and just assume that HBS made 1.2 million minus 5%, or 1.14 million USD. SR:HK ended on 2/17/2015 (US system of dates, sorry), and went on sale 8/20/2015. That's six months of development time. Now lets make some assumptions, like 5 people working on the project full-time, and making $65k USD/mo. That's 1.95 million USD for a six month development schedule.

I'm not sure how a reasonable person can expect them to do more with 1.14 million than SR:HK. Yes, they were going to release the game with only $100k funding, so they had a budget to draw on. Still, with salaries being what they are in the US, what was produced in SR:HK isn't unreasonable for the money they raised and I don't believe that they diverted funds to anything else based on the scope of the game released.

I don't disagree that you dislike it, but I do disagree with your claims about their ethics. They didn't make an RPG, they made a hybrid CYOA-tactics game with an easy tactics layer and some RPG-lite systems used for conflict resolution and CYOA-gated content. I don't think this was them purposefully misleading people, I just think it's what they were capabable of when they initially made SR:R and the (shaky) foundation that they started with set the tone for the rest of the series. Which I enjoyed, I should say.
 
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Roqua

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Despite disagreeing with your belief, your argument is well developed and logical. KS is a means to an end; a capital raising scheme with a non-binding agreement of goods delivered at some point in the future. If you disagree with how those funds are raised and used, you have ever right to sever your connection with the company.

What I don't understand is, after your logical build-up to your conclusion, you state this:

Does anyone really think all the kickstarter money for SRHK went to SRHK? Does anyone think the game has 1mil worth of improvements? Okay, you guys keep being monkey idiots and console fans and I’ll keep fighting the good fight and sticking it to them and watching out for the little guys.

So let's be specific. HBS raised $1.2 million USD for HK. Kickstarter takes a 5% cut and a variable 3 - 5% cut of payments processed via KS. Let's ignore the payment processing fee and just assume that HBS made 1.2 million minus 5%, or 1.14 million USD. SR:HK ended on 2/17/2015 (US system of dates, sorry), and went on sale 8/20/2015. That's six months of development time. Now lets make some assumptions, like 5 people working on the project full-time, and making $65k USD/mo. That's 1.95 million USD for a six month development schedule.

I'm not sure how a reasonable person can expect them to do more with 1.14 million than SR:HK. Yes, they were going to release the game with only $100k funding, so they had a budget to draw on. Still, with salaries being what they are in the US, what was produced in SR:HK isn't unreasonable for the money they raised and I don't believe that they diverted funds to anything else based on the scope of the game released.

I don't disagree that you dislike it, but I do disagree with your claims about their ethics. They didn't make an RPG, they made a hybrid CYOA-tactics game with an easy tactics layer and some RPG-lite systems used for conflict resolution and CYOA gating content. I don't think this was them purposefully misleading people, I just think it's what they were capabable of when they initially made SR:R and the (shaky) foundation that they started with set the tone for the rest of the series. Which I enjoyed, I should say.

65k a month? That's a big salary. That's over three quarter million a year. I wish you were my boss. I assume you mean 65k a year. We'll give them a nice even 100k a year to make the numbers easier. 100k divided by 2087 is 48 an hour, which is good money so we will say that is their total comp package instead of just salary and don't have figure in benefits, etc. So, we'll double the people working on the game since they didn't need many art assets or engine building since only the matrix, some models, music, were added. The implant thing in the body line was really the only brand new content. So we have 10 people with total comp packages of 100k working we'll say for 1 year, that is 1 mil. Of course they have to pay for music and maybe some other assets, as well as needing operating expenses for plant, property, and equipment. I never seen a company that doesn't have debt, as it is a good idea to run with some debt (for everyone, btw, including countries and individuals. Being debt free is usually not the smartest way to operate financially. If you have no debt and own a house you could mortgage a % of the house for 3 or 4% and invest that money and make an average return of 7% that's 3 or 4% profit for doing nothing. 3 or 4% of 100k isn't nickels and dimes. But that's another story.) So we can say in my example that doubles your number of employees and development time and increases their total comp package, we would probably be around 1.4 mil total operating expense. But, the issue with this is its all guess work. We don't know anything beyond what we know for certain. Our examples are both nonsense. We don't know how much backer rewards cost them, etc. What was raised, collected, what we got, and what was stated we will get going forward is what we know for certain.

Now, assuming SRR, DF, and HK made some profit, we know that profit didn't go to fund Battletech since they KSed it. So it went into non-crpg things like their new action rpg-less game.

My beef comes to this - now that they have the assets all built, and a formula that sells, they are abandoning it. Treating it like a sunk cost. Nothing. Gone. They stated they will revisit Shadowrun in the future but not with the current engine or assets. They want to go full 3d and bring Shadowrun to a wider audience. A full 3d Shadowun game was made before for a wider audience and did not give Shadowrun fans what they wanted. They are in a position to give the fans that funded the current engine an assets more of what we like. I highly doubt their cash flows would disallow them to pump out a 25 or 30 hour module at least once a year.

That statement shows me they do not want what I want. I want a more complex, more options, better crpg. I want a real inventory, party, and questing, the whole nine. I want them to cater to the market that put them on the map. Give back to and only consider those that made you something else besides a shitty app maker.

I am against anyone and any company who is against crpgs and the furtherance of the creation of more crpgs. Not depthless, one trick pony crpgs either. Real ones.

I am also against companies that seem to fail to learn from the obvious mistakes of the past. LArian makes a console game that is only supported by PC players and it almost breaks them. Larian goes to crpg gamers and asks us for help funding a crpg. We do, its a success, and then their EE fixes nothing and is just superficial console bullshit. Then they come back to us and ask us for more funds so the can fix what was wrong with DOS 1 in DOS 2 such as extremely poor chardev, etc. Why didn't you fix this with the EE edition like inXile did with WL2? WL2 was clearly a better game in the DC. DOS was clearly a more console audience focused game with almost all improvements going to superficial, expensive unnecessary bullshit like voice acting. Fuck you. ConsoleSven wants to be a bigshot console developer and I didn't give my money knowing then what seems clear now. What kind of crpg developer prefers playing games with a fucking savage controller like console trash?

I fucking hate console games. They destroyed my love - crpgs. I am sick of rpg-lite, being forced into a role, 95% of the budget spent on superficial art and motion capture and shit that does not matter one bit to crpg players who just want more good crpg games. I want meaningful chargen and a compelx, meaningful and significant chargen. I want tough choices, tough combat, and grey-area quests. Something console games do not do. Its just shit for shitheads.

Console developers to me, are like the big chicken companies who cage the chickens and do whatever mean things they do to the chickens that the organic, free-range chicken raisers don't do. Like the crazy people who really give a shit about organic, free range chickens this is a big deal to me. I do not want my money going to what I consider to be evil. People that don't give a shit can shop at super markets that have poorly treated chickens for sale, but for people who care, they don't want to shop at a small organic shop that is using them and abusing their trust as a stepping stone to become a big chain super market selling poorly treated chickens. I'm sure the chicken hippy would not ever shop there if they knew the small grocer's true motives. The would rather give their business to a company that shares their chicken beliefs and that they don't see as evil and part of the problem.
 

agris

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Messages
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Thanks for catching my fuck-up with the math, that was a big one. You know, I fundamentally agree with you. Including your Larian / Sven console rant. And personally I wish that HBS would build on what they've accomplished with the SR games in Unity, including their now huge art asset pool, and develop a real RPG with proper party inventory management and itemization that isn't as linear as a children's book. I don't really understand their desire to move to 3d outside of wanting to broaden their audience. If I were them, I'd want to get as much mileage out of the art assets as possible.

But this is the codex so uhhhh, fuck you!
 

Roqua

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YES!
Honestly, that has never made any sense to me. In my job I am supposed to understand sunk cost, but I don't and never have. I bothers me. Maybe because I was born and raised poor and hate waste and sunk cost is just a huge waste.

I think it can go a little too far, like with Spiderweb. But my bone with them is their refusal for pricing parity with the audience that has kept them going all these years. Why fleece the people who kept you employed all these years?

When a company is going to be stupid and treat the engine and assets they made as a sunk cost, at least build a little good will with your community and release the source code and dev tools so the people in the community that can do things with it can make crpgs with them for profit.
 

DramaticPopcorn

Guest
Men, share some info on new Shadowrun mini-campaing, please. When will it release? What's the premise? Will it be standalone or do I have to replay main game to get to new content?
 

Akratus

Self-loathing fascist drunken misogynist asshole
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Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire Make the Codex Great Again! Grab the Codex by the pussy Insert Title Here Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
http://steamcommunity.com/gid/103582791438347577/announcements/detail/859428513061182505
SHADOWRUN: HONG KONG - EXTENDED EDITION RELEASED TODAY ON STEAM
5 FEBRUARI - HAREBRAINED SCHEMES
6+ HOUR BONUS CAMPAIGN INCLUDED IN FREE UPGRADE FOR ALL PLAYERS

Shadowrun: Hong Kong - Extended Edition adds the all-new, 6+ hour Shadows of Hong Kong Bonus Campaign to the game. The Extended Edition also adds over 100 minutes of Developer Audio Commentary and a long list of improvements since the game’s initial launch - including new visual effects, updated dialogue, and editor features (for User-Generated Content).

For current owners of Shadowrun: Hong Kong, Deluxe Version, or the Shadowrun Triple Pack, the Shadows of Hong Kong bonus campaign and other Extended Edition upgrades are FREE!Simply download and play!

Shadows of Hong Kong Bonus Campaign
Set in the weeks following the events of the main campaign, the Shadows of Hong Kong bonus campaign will give you -- and your team -- the opportunity to turn the tables on the elite corporate police force that once hunted you. Through layers of corporate greed and urban strife, you will contend with dangerous enemies, uncover a deadly conspiracy, and cement your reputation as a Prime Runner… assuming that you survive, of course.

Key Features
  • A Classic, Story-Driven RPG:Shadowrun: Hong Kong hearkens back to the golden age of computer RPG’s with a novel-like, non-linear narrative full of sharp prose and deep character development.
  • A One-of-a-Kind Cyberpunk Setting: Experience the unique tech-meets-magic dystopian future of Shadowrun, a fan-favorite game for over 25 years. Shadowrun: Hong Kong is a perfect entry point to the setting for those with no prior Shadowrun experience, while providing plenty of classic Shadowrun characters and tech for veteran players to sink their teeth into.
  • Command Your Team: Just like Shadowrun: Dragonfall, Shadowrun: Hong Kong features a crew of flawed, dangerous runners with backstories that could only be possible in the tech-meets-magic Shadowrun setting. The members of your team are designed to play contrasting roles during missions, and each has a distinct set of skills, abilities, strengths, and weaknesses. Each team member also has challenges to face in their own lives, which you can choose to brush aside or play an important part in.
  • Gripping, Turn-Based Tactical Combat: When you’re running in the shadows, every turn matters. Choose your actions wisely - move to better cover, charge into melee, or lob a fireball into a crowd of enemies. With over 200 weapons and spells at your disposal, every turn is filled with meaningful choices.
  • Skill-Based Character Progression: Choose a starting character archetype and build from there! Street Samurai and Physical Adepts use advanced combat skills to dominate the battlefield, Shamans and Mages summon powerful allies and cast deadly spells, while Riggers and Deckers provide critical technological support, projecting their consciousness directly into drones and computer systems. Shadowrun: Hong Kong’s classless skill system allows you to grow your character in any direction you choose.

Harebrained Schemes Social Media Channels
Website: http://harebrained-schemes.com/
Twitter: @WeBeHarebrained
Facebook: HarebrainedSchemes
 

Infinitron

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Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/webeharebrained/shadowrun-hong-kong/posts/1483465

The Shadows of Hong Kong Bonus Campaign Is Here!!

We are pleased to announce that the Shadows of Hong Kong bonus campaign is now available as part of a free update to Shadowrun: Hong Kong.This update also adds the developer audio commentary Kickstarter reward and a variety of small game improvements such as new visual effects, updated dialogue, and editor features for User Generated Content.

So, we’ve rebranded the title asShadowrun: Hong Kong - Extended Edition to reflect all the new content. Hong Kong has never been better!

The Extended Edition update is free for all Backers and existing owners of Shadowrun: Hong Kong - to receive the update, you just need to go to your chosen game store (Steam, GOG, or Humble) and download it as you would any other game update. (On Steam this should be automatic.)

11768a070fb6bc327523f8b2da01df86_original.png

Shadows of Hong Kong Bonus Campaign
Set in the weeks following the events of the main campaign, Shadows of Hong Kong will give you -- and your team -- the opportunity to turn the tables on the elite corporate police force that once hunted you. Through layers of corporate greed and urban strife, you will contend with dangerous enemies, uncover a deadly conspiracy, and cement your reputation as a Prime Runner… assuming that you survive, of course.

To play the bonus campaign: after updating to the latest version of the game, select “New Game” from the main title screen menu (see below) to find the new campaign and continue your adventure! Note: You must have completed the main Shadowrun: Hong Kong campaign in order to play Shadows of Hong Kong. When you start Shadows of Hong Kong you will be able to select a high-karma character to import from any valid "final save" file to continue the story with.

1a6907c5c9497cb6b4bd358d8dd6e05a_original.JPG

Over 100+ Minutes of Audio Commentary!
The team had a great time recording the Audio Commentary for the game.You’ll hear more about character motivations, the interesting choices you’re familiar with, or perhaps even some Easter Eggs you may have missed. (SPOILER ALERT: If you want to discover these things on your own, listen at your own risk - the Commentary assumes that you’ve already played the game!)

Interactive audio icons are spread throughout the game where the various areas are discussed. Our hope is that you have some extra fun along with us and learn a little something more about the game at the same time. Audio commentary can be enabled in the Options menu.

Here’s a quick taste of the audio commentary.

I Didn’t Get My Key for the Game Yet! What’s Up With That?
If you haven’t claimed your Shadowrun: Hong Kong reward key, just go to this BackerKit sitewhere you can enter your Kickstarter email address. You’ll receive an email from BackerKit with a link that will take you directly to your account. Just click on the Get Your Digital Rewards button and then copy and paste your key into the correct store.

Shadowrun: Hong Kong e-Novel and Into the Shadows Annotated Anthology
We’re happy to let you know that you can now download the Shadowrun: Hong Kong e-Novel by Mel Odom ($25 Backers), and the annotated version of Into the Shadows ($100 Backers). You’ll find download files or links to all of these in your BackerKit account. If you need help finding your account, just follow the directions given above to find keys. If there are any rewards you haven’t received, please contact us to let us know and we’ll be sure to follow up.

Your Shadowrun: Hong Kong Sourcebook ($75 Backers) still needs a smidge more love but we expect to make that available in the next week or so.

Finally...
One small request - if you like the game, please tell all your RPG-loving friends! As a small, indie company, we rely on word-of-mouth to spread the news about our releases. The easiest way to do this is to head over to Facebook or Twitter and share or retweet our release announcements - it's amazing how just clicking a button can help boost the signal.

The Extended Edition is on sale for 50% off for a limited time on Steam and GOG right now so it’s a great time to pick it up! (And if you know anyone that hasn’t played any of our Shadowrun titles yet, the Shadowrun Triple Pack is ALSO 50% off on Steam.)

We know we say it a lot but we really mean it - THANK YOU! Your support of our Shadowrun games and Harebrained Schemes means the world to us. We love making Shadowrun games for you and hope to return to the 6th World again someday!

Have fun!
HBS

6a66f10c8ad41ed370104cfaa4bab009_original.jpg

PS: We know y’all like your RPGs (obviously) but if you’re interested 3d action games, roguelikes, drop-in co-op multiplayer, or cool minimalist art, HBS’ new game Necropolis has got all your bases covered. It comes out on March 17th and is available for presale on Steam right now! Check out the trailer!
 
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