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Shadowrun Shadowrun: Hong Kong - Extended Edition

Zenith

Arbiter
Joined
Apr 26, 2017
Messages
296
Still only a few hours into it so far, like the initial setup, but it's definitely more of a slog than the previous 2.
Will persist, still got elements I am enjoying, but there's a real lack of rythm & engagement compared to Returns & Dragonfall, both of which I thought were mint.
Advice: ignore the NPCs in the hub. Except maybe the surgeon guy. Plus info from the mystic shop girl might affect the ending choices, I don't quite remember. The rest of them are entirely pointless and just offer irritation when they don't have anything new to say, or disappointment when they do.
 

Falksi

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Still only a few hours into it so far, like the initial setup, but it's definitely more of a slog than the previous 2.
Will persist, still got elements I am enjoying, but there's a real lack of rythm & engagement compared to Returns & Dragonfall, both of which I thought were mint.
Advice: ignore the NPCs in the hub. Except maybe the surgeon guy. Plus info from the mystic shop girl might affect the ending choices, I don't quite remember. The rest of them are entirely pointless and just offer irritation when they don't have anything new to say, or disappointment when they do.

Cheers mate. Just did some pointless mini-quest from a dude wanting his money back for some dodgy stims he'd been sold. Felt totally out of place & pointless.

Assuming there's many folk like that who just chat bollocks? I enjoy it if it adds to the experience, but stuff like that example above doesn't in any way.
 
Joined
Feb 11, 2007
Messages
2,951
Well, there's more like that (only even worse). They each give like 1 point for completing the whole thing, so really, don't bother.

There are exceptions - you need to talk to magic shop girl repeatedly if you want the best ending (and Duncan and Isobel; and then you need to select one specific dialogue option at certain point or you get locked out if it; the whole thing feels very awkward).

Oh and there's another exception that actually has some content behind it - the tech guy that sells decks and programs. He can buy info about the missions from you and if he does he can get into trouble later on.
 

almondblight

Arcane
Joined
Aug 10, 2004
Messages
2,549
they seemed to have nailed a lot more of the combat elements in Hong Kong

I thought the combat in HK was a huge step down from Dragonfall.

Oh, and if you haven't done the fengshui mission yet, I suggest shooting your way through the first floor. I think that was the only encounter in HK that I really enjoyed.
 

Falksi

Arcane
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they seemed to have nailed a lot more of the combat elements in Hong Kong

I thought the combat in HK was a huge step down from Dragonfall.

Oh, and if you haven't done the fengshui mission yet, I suggest shooting your way through the first floor. I think that was the only encounter in HK that I really enjoyed.

It's only eraly days, but I like the combat balance so far. Still, will see what I think after some more time at it. Done 1 run so far and came away feeling more drained than buzzing. Will give a few more a go & see whether I continue or not.
 

Falksi

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This is starting to get on my tits now. I'm having a conversation about a life I never lived in the Barrens. It feels well out of place, and it doesn't help that the other dialogue which is thrown at me is often by the bucketload, and rarely contains anything of interest.

Not far off quitting tbh. Really don't enjoy "roleplaying" things which I've not experienced, just feels cheap.
 
Last edited:

Darth Roxor

Royal Dongsmith
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careful out there, you're about to be visited by half a dozen faggots who will tell you 'zomg but do u have to read everythang also u suk and its all well written'
 

Falksi

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careful out there, you're about to be visited by half a dozen faggots who will tell you 'zomg but do u have to read everythang also u suk and its all well written'

Ha, some gamers just don't understand gaming. I'm not a spectator gamer, I want to be involved as much as possible, even if that's just often at an illusionary level.

Returns & Dragonfall had a brilliant rhythm of dialogue which usually engaged the player, and mostly made them stop & consider each response. There were exceptions, but overall it felt mostly as if my response could carry weight, even if it often didn't.

But Hong Kong?......bleergh. SO much filler & bollocks. Had it been spread out better fair enough. You only have to look at say Glory's back story & mission in Dragonfall to see how to pace such a thing - it was done superbly, and proper drew me in.

But I've just had the Rigger in the lower deck's life story, followed by me playing a part of Duncan's back story. The first felt like a bombardment of totally pointless, unrelated tripe; the second was jarringly weird as I commented on fake memories which I'd not been involved in.

Had to quit now. It's not about volume or even quantity, it's just there's ways to do things, and Hong Kongs storytelling & dialogue aren't handled in good ways unfortunately.

Gutted, coz Returns & dragonfall are two of my fave RPGs this year.
 

Jason Liang

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Crait
join the club

but this is alarming. at least I enjoyed Hong Kong the first time through well enough.

but then unlike many people I enjoy the new matrix. Simon number games are so much easier in Chinese than in English that it feels like cheating.
 
Joined
Feb 11, 2007
Messages
2,951
Well to be fair I did find at least some interesting content in it. It's not a bad game, and for someone that liked previous games I think it's worth a play.
 

the_shadow

Arcane
Joined
Dec 30, 2011
Messages
1,179
Oh and there's another exception that actually has some content behind it - the tech guy that sells decks and programs. He can buy info about the missions from you and if he does he can get into trouble later on.

If you're min-maxing it's best to sell all your info to him just before the final mission so that you can get as much of the cash as possible.
 

Iznaliu

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Joined
Apr 28, 2016
Messages
3,686
If you're min-maxing it's best to sell all your info to him just before the final mission so that you can get as much of the cash as possible.

I find min-maxing to that degree quite painful for minimal payoff, personally.
 

Falksi

Arcane
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Messages
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Well to be fair I did find at least some interesting content in it. It's not a bad game, and for someone that liked previous games I think it's worth a play.

I might go back to it at some point, but after around 12 hours I really stuggled to stay interested.
 

Jason Liang

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If you've ever read Malcolm Gladwell's Outliers, he explains that Chinese language speakers have an innate math advantage since it's a lot easier to memorize a long string of numbers in Chinese than in English, due to how short the number words in Chinese are. In Chinese you can say about 12 numbers in 2 seconds. Like for example, it takes < 2 seconds to count to 10 in Chinese, but about 4 seconds in English even if you spit it fast.
 

Iznaliu

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Messages
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If you've ever read Malcolm Gladwell's Outliers, he explains that Chinese language speakers have an innate math advantage since it's a lot easier to memorize a long string of numbers in Chinese than in English, due to how short the number words in Chinese are. In Chinese you can say about 12 numbers in 2 seconds. Like for example, it takes < 2 seconds to count to 10 in Chinese, but about 4 seconds in English even if you spit it fast.

That sounds highly dubious; even if you can count faster in Chinese vs. English (the words aren't that much shorter; in both languages most numbers are unisyllabic, the only exception is English "seven"), that doesn't necessarily translate to a mathematical advantage.
 

circ

Arcane
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I'm butchering it, but I guess counting in chinese just flows smoother than it does in say english: Yi er san su u liu chi ba jo shi. Although I don't really see that helping.

That said, it wouldn't make a difference because I gave up on that dumb shit mechanic and just brute forced every matrix door. I don't get why they can't just give deckers shit to do other than a matrix run which 99% of the time is worthless, except for some extra cash which totals like 1k. Why does everything have to be a game. Jack in, do a turn based battle with one, two ICE programs and you get goods. One screen, no pointless running around dodging shit, not like there are any choices in the game.
 

Lacrymas

Arcane
Joined
Sep 23, 2015
Messages
18,013
Pathfinder: Wrath
I found the number memorization thing easy, but I didn't try to memorize the numbers, but the placement of the lights. It just felt too repetitive at the end and I got bored, so I also started brute forcing it.
 

circ

Arcane
Joined
Jun 4, 2009
Messages
11,470
Location
Great Pacific Garbage Patch
I reinstalled Dragonfall the other day and have been playing both it and HK consecutively. It's amazing how much better DF is at everything, except not having a single cyberweapon.

It's not just the length of the text dumps, it's better presented in DF. I'm just about done with all the sidequests in HK and I have not seen a single one that I thought was above really bad. No care seems to have been given to any design in the quests, no interesting details - where as in DF there's uniqueness everywhere, encounters are atleast passably interesting, quests make sense overall - but in HK I just get the feeling like doing anything quest related was painful to the developers so they didn't bother. A lot of quests in HK have non-lethal solution, but do I feel like it was worth it? Not even once.

Neither game has a party composition I'd use if I got a choice (why you don't I don't know, non-talkers is fine by me) but if I had to choose I'd go with DF again. When it comes to skills, they're just cloned, except the npc were stronger in DF.

Dialogue choices don't matter in either game, except the odd extra karma here and there. I'm guessing there are going to be diverging choices for the ending, but that's it. Why does a company with members that have backgrounds in actual PnP make such linear products?

Overall, it seems like HBS just took all critique and suggestions that would have applied to HK and shredded them and then went on a drinking binge and let some interns construct legos and write copious amounts of text with no purpose.

Just a quick suggestion of my own, or question, whatever. Why is there no point in shooting people, except clearing an exit or because you felt like it? In oh, several other games you'll make the effort for extra xp or potential loot - but neither applies to SR. Das boring mang.
 

Jason Liang

Arcane
Joined
Oct 26, 2014
Messages
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Location
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I reinstalled Dragonfall the other day and have been playing both it and HK consecutively. It's amazing how much better DF is at everything, except not having a single cyberweapon.

It's not just the length of the text dumps, it's better presented in DF. I'm just about done with all the sidequests in HK and I have not seen a single one that I thought was above really bad. No care seems to have been given to any design in the quests, no interesting details - where as in DF there's uniqueness everywhere, encounters are atleast passably interesting, quests make sense overall - but in HK I just get the feeling like doing anything quest related was painful to the developers so they didn't bother. A lot of quests in HK have non-lethal solution, but do I feel like it was worth it? Not even once.

Neither game has a party composition I'd use if I got a choice (why you don't I don't know, non-talkers is fine by me) but if I had to choose I'd go with DF again. When it comes to skills, they're just cloned, except the npc were stronger in DF.

Dialogue choices don't matter in either game, except the odd extra karma here and there. I'm guessing there are going to be diverging choices for the ending, but that's it. Why does a company with members that have backgrounds in actual PnP make such linear products?
FASA's actual published Shadowrun adventures are extremely linear, and feel almost exactly like Shadowrun Returns: DMS. Each adventure is a series of chapters and each chapter is centered around one set piece, and gameplay involves the party figuring out how to use their characters' skills and resources to get into and out of set set piece (so to speak) bthe ut overall the adventures are written linear like a novel.

I also assume this is the influence of Battletech and war simulation in general, where a historic campaign is organized as a linear series of battles (see Ultimate General: Civil War).

Overall, it seems like HBS just took all critique and suggestions that would have applied to HK and shredded them and then went on a drinking binge and let some interns construct legos and write copious amounts of text with no purpose.

Just a quick suggestion of my own, or question, whatever. Why is there no point in shooting people, except clearing an exit or because you felt like it? In oh, several other games you'll make the effort for extra xp or potential loot - but neither applies to SR. Das boring mang.

SR: Hong Kong is shamefully rushed and unfinnished. If you use Shadowrun Editor to look at the resource files, you can tell that several missions were meant to be two or three times as long but were barely started. Basically the way they produce these games is they had several small teams of writers/ coders, each of whom were responsible for 1-2 missions. The way they built the Editor is designed to allow the games to be completed modularly, so several teams can work on the game simultaneously. Unfortunately what seems to have happened is that when the deadline came many of those teams weren't even close to finnishing their missions or perhaps some teams quit and their missions were shuffled to other teams, but barely started. Whatever the case, the game was grossly unfinnished when released, and HBS didn't have the decency to go back and finnish it with patches either.
 

circ

Arcane
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Jun 4, 2009
Messages
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Great Pacific Garbage Patch
So my first new Shadowrun experience was with DF. At the time people said to skip DMS because it's crap compared to DF, so I never played it until now.

Ok, the interface got improved in later games, but DMS is actually the superior game of the three, by far. And even with the interface improvements, the DMS interface had the advantage of having shortcut keys for your weapon skills.

So DMS story feels much more like a classic Shadowrun story, I get the feeling with this one that the devs actually played the SNES game. The architecture is a little overdone, reminding me of Syndicate and some noir story which doesn't exactly fit the setting, but it's grandiose which the later games never achieve again. You're limited to small areas as usual, but the central hub is a small interior location and you get a larger sense of scale constantly traversing from one location to the next than you do with the later ones. The story is interesting to read, and so are the characters. A little cliched, but atleast they're not constant text dumps from angry emo people. I don't understand where the emo came from in DF and HK, it was all fine in DMS and it was working. The pacing's a little too fast though. The story had darker elements, but it wasn't focused on those, it understood storytelling.

Just about everything I can think of is done better in the first one. Groupmates are just hirables from a roster like in Jagged Alliance, or sometimes just transients that you barely get to know and it makes you curious. The worldbuilding and world is more descriptive but keeps it interesting. It knows when to mix in investigative gameplay and combat, without long slogs of nothing but the former like in HK. The world is more reactive and there is C&C, sometimes with immediate obvious results. Dialogue actually gives different responses, unlike in HK where I had 4 different choices that all gave the same response for example and constantlly tried to undermine the player for no particular reason. The are also a lot more skillchecks from what I can tell, charisma choices and charisma for that matter actually come into play often. Karma is also handled differently - it's no longer a large dump at the end of events, but small increments during the events, which makes you feel like the individual elements in the events matter more.

There's more that I forget, but DMS feels like it was made by a completely different team than DF and HK. Some things got refined, but at the same time, most other things got much, much worse. That said, I wish you could get the DMS experience with some of the later improvements like the better UI of HK and cyberware.
 

SCO

Arcane
In My Safe Space
Joined
Feb 3, 2009
Messages
16,320
Shadorwun: Hong Kong
You can play DMS from Dragonfall. You just need to copy the campaign files over.
Still waiting for a 'complete edition'. I just know modders won't be able to resist.
 

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