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Shadowrun Shadowrun: Hong Kong - Extended Edition

circ

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Great Pacific Garbage Patch
I see some people are disagreeing, yeah ok. It's a very linear story, you get a single actual mission that isn't really related to the main one, unlike the other two games. Ending was fine. But yeah, I had choices and dialogue checks throughout the campaign, I can't say the same for the other two games, and they went full-on emo on characters too. Maybe they'll find their balls some day, because they're gone with HK.
 

Lhynn

Arcane
Joined
Aug 28, 2013
Messages
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A big problem with HK is the horrible pacing born from the bigger amount of freedom the player is given. Missions in DF used to follow a formula. Missions in HK are more freeform allowing for a bit more player input.
They got overly ambitious in HK im guessing.
 

the_shadow

Arcane
Joined
Dec 30, 2011
Messages
1,179
I think the problem is that optimal completion of most missions requires that they be completed diplomatically/peacefully, which is sort of silly when one of the big draws of the game is decent tactical combat.
 

circ

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i've been playng some sammies in DF lately, got one to APEX again finally

one thing that pisses me off about SR and other games with similar design

WHY do I have to wait until the apex, so to speak, to use my end-game toys? best guns, best utilities, best armor, whatever

it's too late to really enjoy the stuff. developers take note, stop doing that repetitive shit, let the player get accustomed to their new toys, add some extra missions. if you're smart - debatable, design the game like an mmo. doesn't have to be one, but design it as openly as possible. it's been done, in nearly every genre, don't tell me it can't be done.

Jagged Alliance 2, open world technically, and big, though suffers from end-game-toyitis too I think?

Might and Magic 5-6-whatever, open world really, you can hop on down anywhere pretty early and get killed or not

see what I'm sayan? stop with this instant gratification, churn out turds as fast as possible as if you were Fearghus Urqhart and Obsidian.
 

circ

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haven't gotten to it yet so

Did play through two of the companion missions which meant I had to talk to them. Uh

Gobbet is garbage, mission too. Gaucho Marx mission is shit, but the convo was interesting, interesting character too. Is0bel, lol, seriously. Only because I feel like I need a decker are you even on the roster.

Speaking of deckers, I have no experience with the SR PnP sources other than quick browsing a few decades ago, but, are deckers in that more like the rogues of fantasy PnP, because in the game they're nothing more than really weak street sammies with occasional pointless extra cash and mini-gaming. I mean they have the potential with some imagination to be the battlefield buffers/debuffers or master tacticians seeing as how all tech is linked - like with Blitz's special ability, instead they get mark target. Aaw shit yeah.
 

Falksi

Arcane
Joined
Feb 14, 2017
Messages
10,538
Location
Nottingham
I reinstalled Dragonfall the other day and have been playing both it and HK consecutively. It's amazing how much better DF is at everything, except not having a single cyberweapon.

It's not just the length of the text dumps, it's better presented in DF. I'm just about done with all the sidequests in HK and I have not seen a single one that I thought was above really bad. No care seems to have been given to any design in the quests, no interesting details - where as in DF there's uniqueness everywhere, encounters are atleast passably interesting, quests make sense overall - but in HK I just get the feeling like doing anything quest related was painful to the developers so they didn't bother. A lot of quests in HK have non-lethal solution, but do I feel like it was worth it? Not even once.

Neither game has a party composition I'd use if I got a choice (why you don't I don't know, non-talkers is fine by me) but if I had to choose I'd go with DF again. When it comes to skills, they're just cloned, except the npc were stronger in DF.

Dialogue choices don't matter in either game, except the odd extra karma here and there. I'm guessing there are going to be diverging choices for the ending, but that's it. Why does a company with members that have backgrounds in actual PnP make such linear products?

Overall, it seems like HBS just took all critique and suggestions that would have applied to HK and shredded them and then went on a drinking binge and let some interns construct legos and write copious amounts of text with no purpose.

Just a quick suggestion of my own, or question, whatever. Why is there no point in shooting people, except clearing an exit or because you felt like it? In oh, several other games you'll make the effort for extra xp or potential loot - but neither applies to SR. Das boring mang.

You hit the nail on the head - aint what you do but the way that you do it.

Hong Kong needs editing badly to be anywhere near as good as Dragonfall. You mention the text dumps, but it isn't just those in isolation, it's the timing of them too and ultimate pacing. You tend to get hit with several on the trot, and it becomes a chore to absorb it all, and less fun doing so as you don't get any combat time to process what's happening, let it ferment, and think about it.
 

Jason Liang

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You get access to full vendors slightly past halfway in both Dragonfall and Hong Kong (not including the Hong Kong DLC vendor) so I'm not sure what the problem is. The only game where you get endgame stuff right before the last mission is DMS, which is already a shorter campaign.

Also, the fights are probably most enjoyable *before* the endgame gear. If you find the game too easy, try beating it with C Tier drones, etc... This is true since Shadowrun Genesis, where Heavy Combat Armor makes Yeshua basically invincible. That game is best played with armor no better than Armored Jacket. In Dragonfall your companions are so OP that your PC doesn't need to do anything anyway besides staying alive. Endgame gear like S-Class Drones or the topend Shottie, Assault Rifles and Sniper Rifles are way over the top in Dragonfall.
 

Lacrymas

Arcane
Joined
Sep 23, 2015
Messages
17,948
Pathfinder: Wrath
I agree with Esh, but maybe not in the context of the nu-Shadowruns. The problem is that some classes, like riggers, only buy drones. There is no reason to save money for other stuff, there is no other stuff, which will make riggers even more overpowered than they already are. They only spend karma on the Intelligence line, so they also get faster access to high-level drones. This is also probably why HBS decided to artificially gate equipment like that, some classes have an inherent advantage otherwise.
 

Sykar

Arcane
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Dec 2, 2014
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Turn right after Alpha Centauri
I found the number memorization thing easy, but I didn't try to memorize the numbers, but the placement of the lights. It just felt too repetitive at the end and I got bored, so I also started brute forcing it.

I still wish they would have done it somewhat similar to the Matrix in the Genesis Shadowrun game. That one was actually fun.
 

Jason Liang

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Yep, Drones are a great 2nd focus for Deckers.
But, my point is that then you would spread your Karma and ¥¥¥ thin, and wouldn't be able to afford the high-end Programs/Cyberdecks too early anyways, so your build would be balanced regardless if you lift the merchant limits.

Um... no. Have you even played Dragonfall? You get some much fucking money. My Rigger had all the Drones in her inventory by the end game.

Even if vendors had full inventories at the start of the game, HBS could have, as you said, gated highend equipment indirectly by increasing the price of the highend gear. The point of the current set up is so you don't have to bother managing that, and neither does HBS.

But again, what's the point? To make your PC even more imbalanced? You want to fuck guys up with an endgame assault rifle by the 3rd mission? That's retarded, if your idea of fun is to take all the challenge out of the game.
 

V_K

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Nov 3, 2013
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at a Nowhere near you
I'm much more annoyed by the fact that AP are tied to plot advancement and not character development than any sort of equipment gating.
 

SCO

Arcane
In My Safe Space
Joined
Feb 3, 2009
Messages
16,320
Shadorwun: Hong Kong
They aren't though. Not directly. They're tied to the total Karma gained (it was done like this to 'automatically' upgrade in mods).

Anyway, these games combat systems are kind of lame compared to many many other 'actual tactical' games for several reasons beaten to death. They're not either challenging or particularly interesting after a while. It's something to do in between finding icons to click on the environment i guess. I'll take a Valkyria Chronicles arena over this any day.
 
Last edited:

circ

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Messages
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Great Pacific Garbage Patch
Pls. How do you make SMG work? I've tried, but it loses to every other tree in everything. Melee and thrown are better at flushing, even AR. A few burst pistols too and better crits I think. What's the point?
 

baturinsky

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Apr 21, 2013
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Russia
One thing HK has over DF is that it has likeable decker. So you are not forced to choose between learning decking yourself and enduring Blitz company.
 

Jason Liang

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I'm much more annoyed by the fact that AP are tied to plot advancement and not character development than any sort of equipment gating.
That's probably the least balanced part of Shadowrun's combat system. The game completely breaks down once you have 4AP + 1AP for Wired Reflexes + Haste. I'd say just keep 2AP throughout the game but that makes Wired Reflex/ Haste even more OP, so the best choice is probably just 3AP flat for characters and opposing critters (and get rid of all the AP manipulating Cyberware like Wired Reflexes, Reload Arm and Jolt Arm).

AP is controlled by a flag that you can set when you create a campaign so when you make a mod with the editor you can change this easily.
 

circ

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How would you have 4 AP, did you mean 3 AP by endgame, which is effectively 5 with reflexes and haste?

Anyway, I've been thinking of an adept character, sword guy, a little confused though.

Adept can get a 3 hit melee attack for 2 AP and boosted crits, immunity to crits and spells pretty much too. Street sammy gets 2 with a lower crit chance. Why would you ever play a melee street sammy? I can maybe see the benefit of hybrid of the two, but you lose out on some stats. Fully cybered you get about +2 strength, but that still doesn't sound better than 3 crit hits per turn.

Wondering if I'm missing something here.
 

ERYFKRAD

Barbarian
Patron
Joined
Sep 25, 2012
Messages
28,235
Strap Yourselves In Serpent in the Staglands Shadorwun: Hong Kong Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
Why would you even melee. And unarmed dude with multiple brass knuckle weapons can keep doing that AP-ripping, armour-shredding, bleeding punch at least once every turn. All you need in close combat, frankly.
 
Self-Ejected

aweigh

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Aug 23, 2005
Messages
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i remember adept-swordsman self-buffer with AP boosts was the most broken thing in Dragonfall, dunno if they re-balanced anything for HK as I decided to go generic-rifleman for my HK run (which I never finished because HK sucks balls).
 

RK47

collides like two planets pulled by gravity
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Not Here
Dead State Divinity: Original Sin
Carter's armor is obviously not my size...

what-armor.jpg


But hey, kevlar undies, man. Armor is definitely 2. So it works.

what-armor2.jpg
 

Iznaliu

Arbiter
Joined
Apr 28, 2016
Messages
3,686
Carter's armor is obviously not my size...

what-armor.jpg


But hey, kevlar undies, man. Armor is definitely 2. So it works.

what-armor2.jpg

Those images don't seem to be embedded properly, which is disappointing, unless that is intentional or something.
 

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