Shadowrun Shadowrun: Hong Kong Pre-Release Discussion [GO TO NEW THREAD]

[veevoir]

Will ruin the atmosphere. Already irritates me that they included clothing with magical boni out of thin air. I actually like that SRR is not about getting the uber loot. Your character should be deadly in his or her own merit, not because you god UBARR00XXOR cannon XTZ101. -.-

In a cyberpunk game you should absolutely have characters that are deadly because they have a UBARR00XXOR cannon, or a DOOMHAMMER XT MURDERKILL cyberarm or whatever.
They should be able to use it, of course, but it fits the setting.

But not if it's the ONLY one in the game and makes you a demi god compared to all others. SR should try to stay relatively fair and not make you into a demi god who walks into the room and blasts away the opposition in 2-4 rounds like it's the case with most cRPGs.

Have you met our Lord and Saviour Adrenal Pumped,Hasted, Jazz drugged street samurai with rifle? Pretty possible to do aleady.. Though that status is achieved by giving away too much XP - rifles and drugs (and gasoline) have one thing in common. They're cheap. And abundant.

But hey , it's shadowrun - as far as I am concerned those games were always about alpha strike. Either you do or you're done.

 

[Sykar]

Play the pnp game then, if you are looking 1:1 mechanics, then computer rpg's are not for you.

Or for you. Beautiful argument that works both ways. Especially when crpg being close to PnP is a bad thing

Is not getting money as loot enough? Do you need to gather 123 random crap pistols to sell at the shop and get the money anyway? Or is it an atrocity that shop has the best items, because we all know that best items *have* to be found during missions/quests.

Loot drops in most RPGs (not talking about Diablo-likes that are all about loot) is just a unnecessary timesink. Go pick up, repeat, go to shop, sell junk. I'd rather have a longer kist of stuff to buy or some unique pieces as a reward for doing the run exceptionally well (optional paths during run) than run around and collect loot like an idiot.

I'm not talking about diablo level of loot, im interested in some enemies dropping a unique item you can use. Does it make sense to face grenade throwing enemies and not be able to replenish your own grenades unless they are looted from a container? If you can scavenge some items for example, it would make sense.

Shifting goal posts now, aren't we.

Will ruin the atmosphere. Already irritates me that they included clothing with magical boni out of thin air. I actually like that SRR is not about getting the uber loot. Your character should be deadly in his or her own merit, not because you god UBARR00XXOR cannon XTZ101. -.-

In a cyberpunk game you should absolutely have characters that are deadly because they have a UBARR00XXOR cannon, or a DOOMHAMMER XT MURDERKILL cyberarm or whatever.
They should be able to use it, of course, but it fits the setting.

But not if it's the ONLY one in the game and makes you a demi god compared to all others. SR should try to stay relatively fair and not make you into a demi god who walks into the room and blasts away the opposition in 2-4 rounds like it's the case with most cRPGs.

Have you met our Lord and Saviour Adrenal Pumped,Hasted, Jazz drugged street samurai with rifle? Pretty possible to do aleady.. Though that status is achieved by giving away too much XP - rifles and drugs (and gasoline) have one thing in common. They're cheap. And abundant.

But hey , it's shadowrun - as far as I am concerned those games were always about alpha strike. Either you do or you're done.

So why make matters even worse with ubarr0zz0r loot? You guys kill me with your shortsightedness. And no, I didn't since I refused to use so called combat "drugs" which had no drawback whatsoever. At least they could have given you severe withdrawal mali after usage if they cannot add an addiction system into it.

 

[Kem0sabe]

Play the pnp game then, if you are looking 1:1 mechanics, then computer rpg's are not for you.

Or for you. Beautiful argument that works both ways. Especially when crpg being close to PnP is a bad thing

Is not getting money as loot enough? Do you need to gather 123 random crap pistols to sell at the shop and get the money anyway? Or is it an atrocity that shop has the best items, because we all know that best items *have* to be found during missions/quests.

Loot drops in most RPGs (not talking about Diablo-likes that are all about loot) is just a unnecessary timesink. Go pick up, repeat, go to shop, sell junk. I'd rather have a longer kist of stuff to buy or some unique pieces as a reward for doing the run exceptionally well (optional paths during run) than run around and collect loot like an idiot.

I'm not talking about diablo level of loot, im interested in some enemies dropping a unique item you can use. Does it make sense to face grenade throwing enemies and not be able to replenish your own grenades unless they are looted from a container? If you can scavenge some items for example, it would make sense.

Shifting goal posts now, aren't we.

I'm shifty that way, you are lucky im not outright editing my posts to conform with my new arguments.

 

[veevoir]

Will ruin the atmosphere. Already irritates me that they included clothing with magical boni out of thin air. I actually like that SRR is not about getting the uber loot. Your character should be deadly in his or her own merit, not because you god UBARR00XXOR cannon XTZ101. -.-

In a cyberpunk game you should absolutely have characters that are deadly because they have a UBARR00XXOR cannon, or a DOOMHAMMER XT MURDERKILL cyberarm or whatever.
They should be able to use it, of course, but it fits the setting.

But not if it's the ONLY one in the game and makes you a demi god compared to all others. SR should try to stay relatively fair and not make you into a demi god who walks into the room and blasts away the opposition in 2-4 rounds like it's the case with most cRPGs.

Have you met our Lord and Saviour Adrenal Pumped,Hasted, Jazz drugged street samurai with rifle? Pretty possible to do aleady.. Though that status is achieved by giving away too much XP - rifles and drugs (and gasoline) have one thing in common. They're cheap. And abundant.

But hey , it's shadowrun - as far as I am concerned those games were always about alpha strike. Either you do or you're done.

So why make matters even worse with ubarr0zz0r loot? You guys kill me with your shortsightedness. And no, I didn't since I refused to use so called combat "drugs" which had no drawback whatsoever. At least they could have given you severe withdrawal mali after usage if they cannot add an addiction system into it.

You missed that part where I'm on the same side of the argument about not having uberzoor loots and looting as a greater mechanics than it already is.

 

[Damned Registrations]

Shadowrun loot has always been about the money in my eyes. I suppose really low level punks could profit off selling some guns, but even moderately skilled runners are likely to be taking runs that make carting around a duffel bag full of pistols to sell to a fence later a waste of time. Guns might run you hundreds or thousands of nuyen, but something like military grade armour or heavy weaponry quickly goes into the 5 digit range, while things like decent cyberware, vehicles and magical talismans head into 6 digit territroy. Programs for decking can get obscenely expensive for marginal benefits as well. And none of that shit is the sort of thing you're going to loot off some security goon.

The only time I could imagine finding decent shit to loot on a run is if thats the purpose of the run, like you set up a heist of an armoury or something and intend to make off with crates of guns and shit. If the item in question is something like a prototype weapon, it's going to be under heavy guard and way more valuable when sold to another corp than when used on its own. I mean, do you want to keep the cyber-rifle +1 or sell it for enough money to buy a god damned helicopter (equipped with a minigun)?

 

[Sykar]

Shadowrun loot has always been about the money in my eyes. I suppose really low level punks could profit off selling some guns, but even moderately skilled runners are likely to be taking runs that make carting around a duffel bag full of pistols to sell to a fence later a waste of time. Guns might run you hundreds or thousands of nuyen, but something like military grade armour or heavy weaponry quickly goes into the 5 digit range, while things like decent cyberware, vehicles and magical talismans head into 6 digit territroy. Programs for decking can get obscenely expensive for marginal benefits as well. And none of that shit is the sort of thing you're going to loot off some security goon.

The only time I could imagine finding decent shit to loot on a run is if thats the purpose of the run, like you set up a heist of an armoury or something and intend to make off with crates of guns and shit. If the item in question is something like a prototype weapon, it's going to be under heavy guard and way more valuable when sold to another corp than when used on its own. I mean, do you want to keep the cyber-rifle +1 or sell it for enough money to buy a god damned helicopter (equipped with a minigun)?

Thing is you don't run around with 20 AKs in your backpack and another 50 Predator pistols on top of that. Weight and space would prove to be rather troublesome in that regard. You also want to be lightweight and mobile most of the time.

 

[agris]

I think a big part of this problem is that the concept of loot has been convoluted with itemization- principally by me.

I don't want 100 pieces of shit to loot/sell per mission, I want itemization of armor / weapons / cyber / spells / totems etc that offer me choices and tradeoffs, so that the choice of a given piece of gear isn't limited to a single or two pieces per 'power tier'. If there are special and unique items (principally weapons and armor) to be found/quested for in the world, I think the game would benefit from that. Not every drek-head dropping the equivalent of padded armor to be sold for 10 nuyen.

 

[Damned Registrations]

Since when are you killing 70 guards in a single run (unless said run is paying you hundreds of thousands of creds)? I'm talking about taking a gun or two here or there and selling them immediately after the run.

Using Dragonfall as an example, I could see swiping whatever pistols the enemies had to sell later on the hotel run since you're so strapped for cash and they're easy enough to carry out with a party of 4 guys after all the fighting is done. Maybe grab an assault rifle to replace your own if it's better.

But what really would have made sense is if you could have swiped the drug or money stash. They run the whole building, they must be making some decent change, and if you're going to be ventilating a dozen guys anyways... Instead you waste time doing a favour for some druggie because you're such a nice guy and really want that 300$. That was the part that confused me the most frankly, the effort the player goes through for such chump change. All but the later runs paid like ass, and even then they paid way less than they should have (the amount the lodge gave me for personally threatening an executive inside a secure building was insulting, I could have gotten more than that by nicking the guy's watch.)

 

[tuluse]

Haven't you people already got enough loot hoarding in DOS, MMX and, basically, any other game released in past 10 years at least? Would it really hurt you that much if this one series stays free from that shit?

The only alternatives are no differentiation or shitty cargo cargo Diablo style loot?

 

[Sykar]

Haven't you people already got enough loot hoarding in DOS, MMX and, basically, any other game released in past 10 years at least? Would it really hurt you that much if this one series stays free from that shit?

The only alternatives are no differentiation or shitty cargo cargo Diablo style loot?

No, but the person I quoted seemed to want something like this. Personally, I was fine with Dragonfall items overall, could have just used some more variation. I prefer cash over loot so I can decide for myself what I can get. I would prefer an upgrade system like Fallout New Vegas maybe. Being able to modify your stuff for a personalized touch appeals more to me and feels more "Shadowrunny" than getting random loot or some hand placed loot, especially if it worsens the balance even more.
Also would love to see some Cyberware for skill softs, letting you use skills you haven't learned but your minicomputer in your brain can help you with that.

 

[Lhynn]

Am I the only ones jonesing for better itemization? Something like DF:DC with Baldur's Gate-level gear selection options would be amazing.

I would like to see gear like in cyberpunk, with chrome books and expansions, etc. Give more of a feeling of tools of a trade and less of weapons that only increase your firepower.

 

[tuluse]

No, but the person I quoted seemed to want something like this. Personally, I was fine with Dragonfall items overall, could have just used some more variation. I prefer cash over loot so I can decide for myself what I can get. I would prefer an upgrade system like Fallout New Vegas maybe. Being able to modify your stuff for a personalized touch appeals more to me and feels more "Shadowrunny" than getting random loot or some hand placed loot, especially if it worsens the balance even more.

There's nothing cool to buy in either Shadowrun game either.

 

[V_K]

Haven't you people already got enough loot hoarding in DOS, MMX and, basically, any other game released in past 10 years at least? Would it really hurt you that much if this one series stays free from that shit?

The only alternatives are no differentiation or shitty cargo cargo Diablo style loot?

Of course not. They could go the Quest for Glory route and cut equipment altogether. But I doubt it'd fit the setting all too well.

 

[Sykar]

No, but the person I quoted seemed to want something like this. Personally, I was fine with Dragonfall items overall, could have just used some more variation. I prefer cash over loot so I can decide for myself what I can get. I would prefer an upgrade system like Fallout New Vegas maybe. Being able to modify your stuff for a personalized touch appeals more to me and feels more "Shadowrunny" than getting random loot or some hand placed loot, especially if it worsens the balance even more.

There's nothing cool to buy in either Shadowrun game either.

Is it supposed to be "cool"? Most of the time they are upgrades and the enemies can have them as well. At least in that department the odds are even, which I prefer over "cool" stuff which shift the balance into the players favor even more. It feels also more believable to me.

 

[tuluse]

Is it supposed to be "cool"? Most of the time they are upgrades and the enemies can have them as well. At least in that department the odds are even, which I prefer over "cool" stuff which shift the balance into the players favor even more.

I'd prefer to have something interesting to buy that adds novel effects. If it's just +1, +2, +3, drop equipment altogether and be done with it.

(shadowrun is marginally better than +1,+2,+3 so I'm not advocating them dropping items, just making a theoretical point).

 

[Damned Registrations]

I thought the genesis game handled loot pretty well. Characters had a simple 6 slot inventory, which equipment also occupied. So you'd have your gun, body armour, prolly a medkit or grenades or something, and a couple spare slots in case you find something you want to take back (like guns, medical supplies, or grenades.) 3 character party, so a decent number of spare slots. Obviously this was very abstract (deckers didn't need a slot for their gear, assault rifles take up the same space as pistols, trolls carry the same shit as dwarves, etc.) but it was good enough. It's not like you were looting everyone of random possessions, just the stuff that you could use yourself, a small enough load you could hide it in a trenchcoat easily enough.

 

[SarcasticUndertones]

No, but the person I quoted seemed to want something like this. Personally, I was fine with Dragonfall items overall, could have just used some more variation. I prefer cash over loot so I can decide for myself what I can get. I would prefer an upgrade system like Fallout New Vegas maybe. Being able to modify your stuff for a personalized touch appeals more to me and feels more "Shadowrunny" than getting random loot or some hand placed loot, especially if it worsens the balance even more.

There's nothing cool to buy in either Shadowrun game either.

What would you buy though? Is there a place in the game for something other than weapons, armour, spells and support kits.?

A bigger equipment range would probably require an entirely different scaled game...

 

[Kem0sabe]

Apparently none of us knows exactly what he/she/it wants exactly in terms of loot and itemization in general for shadowrun, just that it's not that good as it stands the previous games.

 

[Sykar]

Is it supposed to be "cool"? Most of the time they are upgrades and the enemies can have them as well. At least in that department the odds are even, which I prefer over "cool" stuff which shift the balance into the players favor even more.

I'd prefer to have something interesting to buy that adds novel effects. If it's just +1, +2, +3, drop equipment altogether and be done with it.

(shadowrun is marginally better than +1,+2,+3 so I'm not advocating them dropping items, just making a theoretical point).

But that's what SRR loot has been, just to a minor degree compared to a game like let's say D:OS, and now people ask for even more of that stuff.

 

[tuluse]

What would you buy though? Is there a place in the game for something other than weapons, armour, spells and support kits.?

A bigger equipment range would probably require an entirely different scaled game...

More different kinds of weapons where you actually are making a decision instead of just upgrading tiers.

More different kinds of armor where you actually are making a decision instead of just upgrading tiers.

And oh yeah, there was this whole cyber path that does the most boring effects possible when it's supposed to be entirely about cool stuff.

 

[Sykar]

Apparently none of us knows exactly what he/she/it wants exactly in terms of loot and itemization in general for shadowrun, just that it's not that good as it stands the previous games.

I know exactly what I want and don't. Items which stay true to it's P&P roots with no added silly stuff like +1 Willpower on some leather clothes "cuz reasons".

What would you buy though? Is there a place in the game for something other than weapons, armour, spells and support kits.?

A bigger equipment range would probably require an entirely different scaled game...

More different kinds of weapons where you actually are making a decision instead of just upgrading tiers.

More different kinds of armor where you actually are making a decision instead of just upgrading tiers.

And oh yeah, there was this whole cyber path that does the most boring effects possible when it's supposed to be entirely about cool stuff.

Well they will add integrated cyberweapons so that's a start. More variation is something I want myself. What I don't want is crap like D:OS did in it's itemization which I find just jarring and ruins some of my suspension of disbelief.

 

[SarcasticUndertones]

What would you buy though? Is there a place in the game for something other than weapons, armour, spells and support kits.?

A bigger equipment range would probably require an entirely different scaled game...

More different kinds of weapons where you actually are making a decision instead of just upgrading tiers.

More different kinds of armor where you actually are making a decision instead of just upgrading tiers.

And oh yeah, there was this whole cyber path that does the most boring effects possible when it's supposed to be entirely about cool stuff.

Valid criticism, but I, personally, think that most of that would just be icing of an already deliucious cake, cakes can always be made taster with more good ingredients... at least they made a good quality sponge.

 

[Kem0sabe]

I know exactly what I want and don't. Items which stay true to it's P&P roots with no added silly stuff like +1 Willpower on some leather clothes "cuz reasons".



Well they will add integrated cyberweapons so that's a start. More variation is something I want myself. What I don't want is crap like D:OS did in it's itemization which I find just jarring and ruins some of my suspension of disbelief.

And what is the entire shop weapon list in shadowrun if not a succession of +1 upgrades?

There's no flavor involved in equipping your runner, just numbers. And for me the shadowrun setting is more about uniqueness and character than rolling dice.

 

[V_K]

More different kinds of weapons where you actually are making a decision instead of just upgrading tiers.

More different kinds of armor where you actually are making a decision instead of just upgrading tiers.

And oh yeah, there was this whole cyber path that does the most boring effects possible when it's supposed to be entirely about cool stuff.

I'm fine with weapons the way they are. They did a pretty good job with differentianting the types of weapons, and that's already more than can be said of most games. Being able to modify them would be cool tho.
Armor sucks, I agree. Strange how it never came up in the kickstarter comments.
Redesigned cyber is already promised.

 

[Sykar]

I know exactly what I want and don't. Items which stay true to it's P&P roots with no added silly stuff like +1 Willpower on some leather clothes "cuz reasons".



Well they will add integrated cyberweapons so that's a start. More variation is something I want myself. What I don't want is crap like D:OS did in it's itemization which I find just jarring and ruins some of my suspension of disbelief.

And what is the entire shop weapon list in shadowrun if not a succession of +1 upgrades?

There's no flavor involved in equipping your runner, just numbers. And for me the shadowrun setting is more about uniqueness and character than rolling dice.

It doesn't culminate into your character's own stats provide less than 40% of your total stats. Your character stats make up about 70%-80% of your total power which is much more believable. Furthermore in terms of spells this is not really true and Cyberware could also offer more than minor stat boni.

More different kinds of weapons where you actually are making a decision instead of just upgrading tiers.

More different kinds of armor where you actually are making a decision instead of just upgrading tiers.

And oh yeah, there was this whole cyber path that does the most boring effects possible when it's supposed to be entirely about cool stuff.

I'm fine with weapons the way they are. They did a pretty good job with differentianting the types of weapons, and that's already more than can be said of most games. Being able to modify them would be cool tho.
Armor sucks, I agree. Strange how it never came up in the kickstarter comments.
Redesigned cyber is already promised.

I consider this to be really great distinction compared to many other games, where weapon types is just flavor and eye candy, nothing more. Here you have to make some active decision what kind of weapon you want to use and there is a distinc difference between let's say Shotguns and Assault Rifles, more so than many other games like Fallout for example.