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Baron Dupek

Arcane
Joined
Jul 23, 2013
Messages
1,870,765
who cares
beth sure not
cause spice must money already flow
no matter what
borked ductaped engine? promised feature removed?
check mah bank account where zeroes flow
but his fuck single 0
 

Jazz_

Arcane
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Jun 13, 2016
Messages
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Sea of Ubiquity
For me the main problem of Skyrim is that, like Oblivion, it is clichè and generic as fuck, take Morrowind, it had the same shit gameplay of Oblivion and Skyrim but exploring was a joy in that game, such an imaginative alien-looking world.
 

Skittles

He ruins the fun.
Joined
Apr 20, 2011
Messages
983
Am creating this thread to discuss how Bethesda could have made a much better game. Codexers tend to know much more about RPGs than I do, so you'll be able to tell me if there is any value in the following ideas.
  1. Non-linear quest lines with consequences. Would be fun to have more choice in quests than take-it-or-leave-it.
  2. Non-linear dungeons. This isn't just more realistic. It also increases the 'apparent size' of the setting far beyond the increased area.
  3. A superior combat system. This one doesn't even require creativity. There must be some good swordplay game whose mechanics could be easily stolen.
Nominations:

  • Magic overhaul. Mods do a fair job of this, so it's not a big priority.
  • Followers with something to say, like the Inigo mod.
  • Complex, adventure game style puzzles. (Not needed at all but I like the idea of an RPG/adventure game hybrid.)
Please, discuss your ideas for the three most needed improvements.

Sorry, I have five:

1. Get rid of the start. Shoving the central conflicts of the game into your face at the beginning is a shit way to do an open world cRPG. Instead, why not just tell the PC that they're free to quest for glory/wealth/power and let them stumble kind of naturally into the real underlying conflict? That way you avoid the "the world is ending, but let me go fight random bandits for 20 hours" derpiness.

2. More interesting character creation system. I'm thinking something like selecting a basic background and then having you select stuff like what your character's profession was at certain intervals starting at like age ten and then every few years after that. Your starting skills and stats would be based on that. It could be even more interesting if you could keep playing it for higher starting skills but worse physical stats if you have someone who's like fifty at the start instead of twenty.

3. A more interesting magic system. Like rather than generic spells, something themed like invoking particular divinities for specific effects? Or maybe an alchemy system that would let you craft weapons and things as well instead of just minor stat buffs? You could make learning alchemical recipes more interesting than just combining random ingredients ad hoc.

4. Rather than improving companions, maybe party-based would be more interesting. You could go through the same party creation process for each of them. That keeps the devs from having to write characters and go down the Bioware derp route. Not that you should be banned from having pregenerated companions every now and then.

5. Chuck the setting. Something better than a generic "high fantasy" setting would be great. Like say Medieval Germany?

If these changes were made, I would buy Skyrim tomorrow.
 

vonAchdorf

Arcane
Joined
Sep 20, 2014
Messages
13,465
Non-linear dungeons. This isn't just more realistic. It also increases the 'apparent size' of the setting far beyond the increased area.

Taking the Bethsoft dungeon creating skills into account, knowing that at the end of a dungeon will be a shortcut to the exit is one of the reasons that I was willing to enter them.
 

Deleted Member 16721

Guest
I would turn the combat into a real-time-with-pause system, add the stat interactions and dice rolls back from Morrowind but add turn-based "rounds" ala Baldur's Gate. Balance the encounters to be more meaningful, a bit longer, a bit more challenging and deadly so you have to utilize your different weapon attacks, spells, items/scrolls, etc., and I think it would be cool. The Quest is sort of like a turn-based Morrowind with grid-based movement, mine would be a RTwP Morrowind with free movement.
 

Dux

Arcane
Joined
May 26, 2016
Messages
635
Location
Sweden
Skyrim is carefully engineered with such principles to suit as many people as possible, whether it's PC or console gamers. These types of gamers tend to desire certain elements in their games like fast-paced gameplay and convenience. The developers work to satisfy these needs, of course. Anything else would be madness, especially from a business point of view.

Non-linearity? C&C? Complex puzzles? There are games out there which offer these things. Skyrim, however, is an open-world action adventure game: at most an RPG Light. It is exactly what the developers wanted it to be, as well as the majority of those that bought it. It doesn't need fixing, does it? Players are free to run around without stress - doing this and that - while never having to feel lost or confused. They can fight dragons using cool-looking and instantly gratifying powers. To me, however, it's just a boring game. Even if certain things were to be implemented - like some of the examples already mentioned - it would still be a boring game. Boring world, boring side quests, boring story line, boring characters. Boring everything.

Nonetheless, Skyrim is the best game Bethesda has ever made because it ensured their place as a giant in the industry and has created a legion of die-hard fans. You - on the other hand - don't really seem to be one of those. It sounds like you, as I do, crave more challenging and deeper RPGs. Look, there's nothing wrong with a random theoretical discussion on how it could be "better" but it seems pointless. If it was about a game that perhaps had hinted that it could have been something more then I would understand. Skyrim never did. Not even once. It is unapologetically and perhaps triumphantly mediocre.
 

octavius

Arcane
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Bjørgvin
1. Get rid of the start. Shoving the central conflicts of the game into your face at the beginning is a shit way to do an open world cRPG. Instead, why not just tell the PC that they're free to quest for glory/wealth/power and let them stumble kind of naturally into the real underlying conflict? That way you avoid the "the world is ending, but let me go fight random bandits for 20 hours" derpiness.

But that would alienate the hordes of wankers who have never read a book but play video games "for the story".
 

Luzur

Good Sir
Joined
Feb 12, 2009
Messages
41,395
Location
Swedish Empire
1. Get rid of the start. Shoving the central conflicts of the game into your face at the beginning is a shit way to do an open world cRPG. Instead, why not just tell the PC that they're free to quest for glory/wealth/power and let them stumble kind of naturally into the real underlying conflict? That way you avoid the "the world is ending, but let me go fight random bandits for 20 hours" derpiness.

But that would alienate the hordes of wankers who have never read a book but play video games "for the story".

Yeah the average joe gotta be the chosen, get every girl, foil every evil plot, brutal grimdark dualwield impossible swords hero for some hours each week, otherwise he could stop consuming games!!!
 
Joined
Dec 17, 2013
Messages
5,110
Most RPGs ever made were flawed in some way. With some of them, you can look at their good stuff, and say, hey if only A, B, and C were better, this would be a heck of a game.

You cannot do this with any Bethesda game. If you take a Bethesda game, and change combat, writing, exploration, world design, character development, AI, itemization, and challenge, well, yeah you might just have something, but then it wouldn't exactly be a Bethesda game.

In fact, if you did ^, you'd end up with Gothic. ;)
 

DraQ

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Chrząszczyżewoszyce, powiat Łękołody
1. Get rid of the start. Shoving the central conflicts of the game into your face at the beginning is a shit way to do an open world cRPG. Instead, why not just tell the PC that they're free to quest for glory/wealth/power and let them stumble kind of naturally into the real underlying conflict? That way you avoid the "the world is ending, but let me go fight random bandits for 20 hours" derpiness.
Yeah, I could go with that, although Skyrim was rather inoffensive for its premise - cliffracers 2.0 dragons keep to the background as much as possible and for a good portion of the MQ you don't actually know that the world is ending. Still, a more organic beginning would be better for an open world game.

2. More interesting character creation system.
Like basically *any* character creation system. Other than cosmetics and race (which is also largely cosmetic in vanilla) Skyrim has precisely none.

3. A more interesting magic system. Like rather than generic spells, something themed like invoking particular divinities for specific effects? Or maybe an alchemy system that would let you craft weapons and things as well instead of just minor stat buffs? You could make learning alchemical recipes more interesting than just combining random ingredients ad hoc.
Other approach:
Skyrim actually did a few nice things to its magic system:
  • Added wielding mechanics where spells could be equipped in one or both hands slots (dynamic combination of spells or spells and other equipment for hybrids or power casting)
  • Added more environmental interactivity to spells - necromancy actually raising dead, aforementioned walls, flammable substances, ability to position your summons, ability to use physics in gameplay
  • Added interesting new ways magic could be applied - runes, walls, continuous cast, in addition to self, target, area at range and (restored from Daggerfall) area around self.
And then...
  • Removed the thing that would make the above shine - spellmaker. Want to make a rune that tries to raise any nearby corpses when triggered? A magic necromantic leach animating corpse as long as it's actively cast? Maybe a rune that explodes, then tries to raise anything it killed? NOPE.
Slap spellmaker back on, restore a few removed effect and Skyrim could easily have the best magic system in series.

As for alchemy, a more dimensional system, with recipes still coming from built in logic, but consisting of more than just combining ingredients (for example combining ingredients AND right sequences of alchemical tools, methods and catalysts) would be good.

4. Rather than improving companions, maybe party-based would be more interesting. You could go through the same party creation process for each of them. That keeps the devs from having to write characters and go down the Bioware derp route. Not that you should be banned from having pregenerated companions every now and then.
Yeah, well, no.
TES has always been about running around as a single character with precise real time control over what you do. Followers are nice and generated followers have their merits, better party command interface would also be welcome, but TES should always be about the PC with party optionally tagging along, just like you wouldn't want a party based Deus Ex, System Shock or Doom.

5. Chuck the setting. Something better than a generic "high fantasy" setting would be great. Like say Medieval Germany?
Fuck you. The setting is still one of the upsides of TES. Skyrim doesn't fully realize it (then again, not even Morrowind did) but that's no reason to ditch it, especially given how vastly superior its realization was to that in Oblivion.
It's TES, not Darklands reboot.
Obviously more inspiration by well researched history would be welcome, but worldbuilding is ultimately more interesting than just taking a historical setting and rolling with it.
 

Jazz_

Arcane
Joined
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Messages
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Sea of Ubiquity
Disagree with Draq completely, the setting and world-building in Skyrim was banal shit boring, not that much of a step up from Oblivion. Morrowind's setting and world-building was 100 times better than both.
 
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Jaesun

Fabulous Ex-Moderator
Patron
Joined
May 14, 2004
Messages
37,241
Location
Seattle, WA USA
MCA
Am creating this thread to discuss how Bethesda could have made a much better game. Codexers tend to know much more about RPGs than I do, so you'll be able to tell me if there is any value in the following ideas.
  1. Non-linear quest lines with consequences. Would be fun to have more choice in quests than take-it-or-leave-it.
  2. Non-linear dungeons. This isn't just more realistic. It also increases the 'apparent size' of the setting far beyond the increased area.
  3. A superior combat system. This one doesn't even require creativity. There must be some good swordplay game whose mechanics could be easily stolen.

How does any of this help them sell more units on Consoles? That is the only suggestion they will ever do for their games.
 
Joined
Jan 28, 2015
Messages
891
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Canuckistan
My team has the sexiest and deadliest waifus you can recruit.
All I ask is that the next TES have better dungeons. The games have never had great ones really, but it's one area where a little effort could go a long way. The multi entrance big Dwemer cave in Skyrim as the only one worth anything, add in even a couple more like that and it could be better. Bringing back levitation would be great too, even if it's only for the dungeons. Having to have some vertical design taking levitate in to consideration can lead to good things. They started playing with the concept in Morrowind, but it was babysteps compared to where they could have gone with it.
 

NeoKino

RPGCodex Ninja
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Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire
The games have never had great ones really, but it's one area where a little effort could go a long way. The multi entrance big Dwemer cave
Daggerfall, that was the best thing about that game. It's a shame it had so few trap and enemy types that game could've of used more, skellies and tittymonsters where cool but they get boring after the 80th encounter, also the traps it did have just didn't cut in terms of dicking potential, fucking the player up by draining their magic or teleporting them into the bottom of a pool is nice but it isn't that reload creating rage inducing trite that players of old rpgs come to tolerate.
 

Junmarko

† Cristo è Re †
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The only thing Bethesda excel at these days, is being a non-intrusive publisher. They lost their talent for in-house development post Morrowind. They are better off just providing the tools, and then allowing more competent people design the core game. New Vegas was a prime example of this.
 
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Tabs

Novice
Joined
Sep 20, 2015
Messages
27
Location
Upstate
I think the area where change could be most impactful is the Perk trees. So many are just making numbers go up: see the Enchanting tree for example. Several mods do a pretty good job of reimagining the perks to promote more than shallow jack-of-all-trades perk taking.
 

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