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KickStarter SR:HK one of Kickstarter's greatest successes, BT4 a dismal failure

almondblight

Arcane
Joined
Aug 10, 2004
Messages
2,549
How they act has nothing to do with it.

Well, how they (and most other KS projects) acted evidence that their asking price reflected conservative estimates rather than a desire for headlines. What evidence do we have that their asking price was a publicity stunt? The fact that they made much more than they asked for? I guess going by that we could also say the $900k goal of Torment was a publicity stunt.

If anything, I respect Fargo for not playing these games.

What games? They stated they were going to make the expansion either way, but the scope of it depended on what they raised on KS. Was Larian playing games when they asked for $400k?

I don't know enough about miniature board games and how well they do on KS, but I think that 500k is pretty good.

Yeah, and $100k is pretty good for a video game. Sure, there are videogames that make more, but there are also miniature game Kickstarters that pull in $3+ million.

But the point is, for their second Kickstarter they only hit their goal in the last day. Being a few hours away from a failed Kickstarter is going to make you a bit conservative the next go around, particularly if you're not sure what kind of reception you're going to have. If I remember right, you were even talking about how it was a bit of a tough sell - doing a KS for more of the same when the reception to the first game was lackluster and the sales of the second lagged far behind it as a result.

If you look at the Codex predictions thread, most were predicting that they were going to get less than their first KS (and you can see similar reasoning - KS having lost its luster, doing another KS for more of the same, the Dragonfall under-performing). And they were right, it only made 2/3 of the first.

Yeah, in hindsight everyone knows that they were going to get exactly 2/3 of the funding for the first got rather than 1/5; and everyone who was saying "of course this is going to be difficult" before hand suddenly starts saying "of course this was going to be easy" after. And I'm sure if they had asked for $900k, and only got $850k, the very same people would be saying how obvious it was that this was a more difficult, that it was obvious that they were going be getting only a fraction of the money the first KS pulled in, and that they should have had a lower goal.

My point is that 100k isn't a real goal. You can't make a game or even a sequel for 100k as after dedications it would be barely enough to pay 2 people for a year.

Eh...

We're totally committed to making Shadowrun: Hong Kong and we're already several months into development. The project is budgeted, fully staffed, and on-schedule for a mid-2015 release.

...

By backing the project, you'll increase our production budget and get more features, more improvements, and more game. Take a look at the funding goals below to see all the stuff we want to add.
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
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Messages
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So you pour money into a feature-making box and count to 3? And here I thought that you either hire more people or keep the existing people on your payroll longer. How embarrassing...
 

almondblight

Arcane
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Aug 10, 2004
Messages
2,549
So you pour money into a feature-making box and count to 3? And here I thought that you either hire more people or keep the existing people on your payroll longer. How embarrassing...

I guess they mistakenly believed that most people had a good enough grasp of logic to realize that money would be spent on more team members (and keeping existing members) which would lead to better features. But for the people who didn't quite grasp this and thought money comes from throwing money in feature-making boxes, they did have a few updates about the new members of the team they were adding as a result of the successful KS.
 

Nyast

Cipher
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Jan 12, 2014
Messages
609
For example, I think we can get 150-200k on KS. I can ask for 200k because it's a realistic amount and then struggle to hit it or I can ask for 30k, hit it early, get "OMG! AoD2 Kickstarter is a smashing success, funded in 24 hours!" free media coverage, then hit 150k and get "OMG!!! AoD2 campaign is on FIRE! Iron Tower gets 5 times (!) the asking amount! Looks like Bethesda Softworks will have some serious competition in year 2050!"

So what do you do if you hit 50k ? You're funded but you're far from you really need, and now you're bound to delivering what you promised, otherwise you might get your ass sued. Even if you can continue development after you run out of funds ( like working part time on your project ), it'll suffer from significant delays / bad PR. Basically, it sounds like a recipe for a trainwreck.
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
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Messages
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You're far from what you need in any case (that's the beauty of KS). Both Pillars and WL2 got millions and ended up costing millions more. Imagine what Pillars would have looked like if Obsidian got only 1.1 mil and couldn't get more elsewhere.

Edit: if you notice, I said "I think we can get...", not "I think we need..."
 

Infinitron

I post news
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Messages
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Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
You're far from what you need in any case (that's the beauty of KS). Both Pillars and WL2 got millions and ended up costing millions more. Imagine what Pillars would have looked like if Obsidian got only 1.1 mil and couldn't get more elsewhere.

Edit: if you notice, I said "I think we can get...", not "I think we need..."

Wasteland 2 ended up costing "millions more", but I'm not sure Pillars of Eternity did. Obsidian got a pretty large additional sum from preorders and had a larger budget to begin with. As far as I can tell from doing the math, they ended up with about the same amount of money that WL2 spent, for the same amount of development time.
 
Self-Ejected

Sacred82

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Wasteland 2 ended up costing "millions more", but I'm not sure Pillars of Eternity did. Obsidian got a pretty large additional sum from preorders and had a larger budget to begin with. As far as I can tell from doing the math, they ended up with about the same amount of money that WL2 spent, for the same amount of development time.

In one video interview Feargus related how he convinced some compadres that he could do the game for 10 million.
 

Infinitron

I post news
Staff Member
Joined
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Messages
97,236
Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
I've watched all interviews and I'm quite certain he never said that, or if he did it wasn't about PoE.
 

Turjan

Arcane
Joined
Mar 31, 2008
Messages
5,047
Wasteland 2 ended up costing "millions more", but I'm not sure Pillars of Eternity did. Obsidian got a pretty large additional sum from preorders and had a larger budget to begin with. As far as I can tell from doing the math, they ended up with about the same amount of money that WL2 spent, for the same amount of development time.
PoE has one peculiarity in its funding setup as part of the money was already for the expansion pack. Not sure how much this was though.
 

Infinitron

I post news
Staff Member
Joined
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Messages
97,236
Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
I really don't think they earmarked and set aside that money for expansion development - that would be pretty pointless. It all went into the base game
 

Turjan

Arcane
Joined
Mar 31, 2008
Messages
5,047
I really don't think they earmarked and set aside that money for expansion development - that would be pretty pointless. It all went into the base game
Sure, but they are still supposed to deliver the goods, so this doesn't really matter.
 

Fenix

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Russia atchoum!
I don't think all these % make sense, be it 1000% or 1500%, because it is a relative numbers rather than absolute, and man-hours are paid in absolute.
And while DMS was a mediocre at best, DF was among best Top 3 RPG of year (yep, that was bad year).
 

Tigranes

Arcane
Joined
Jan 8, 2009
Messages
10,350
I disagree at 9999999999999999999999999999999999%. A sequel doesn't have and shouldn't have to reivent the wheel. It is supposed to be faithfull to the previous one.

Didn't everybody throw a lot of shit at King's Bounty for basically doing the same thing?

Mind you, this is exactly what HBS should be doing with their particular funding model. As VD says, they're doing very well at do-more-with-less. But let's not pretend that DF and HK are sequels.
 

naossano

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Marseilles, France
DF was initially a DLC (rather an add-on, IMO), but became a sequel, while HK is a sequel at release, while having its own DLC (the mini-campaign as stretch goal).

Some of the best sequels i played if not all the best sequel i played, didn't have a fully different engine. They had the same engine at heart and mostly added new stories, new bestiary, some little gameplay improvements. I think of Fallout 2, Myth 2, The Commando whole series (before they fail with their FPS), BG2, Civilization/AOE series in a way, Metro series, etc...
I am not pretending they are sequels. They ARE sequels and YOU are pretending they aren't.
 

Roguey

Codex Staff
Staff Member
Sawyerite
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Messages
35,659
Was Curse of the Azure Bonds a sequel to Pool of Radiance? +M
 

Monocause

Arcane
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Aug 15, 2008
Messages
3,656
This thread is ridiculously dumb in places. Fargo's "hopes" are clearly PR-speech, and most likely have no bearing on what their actual expectations were. It's taking ""I hope we will raise something around the score of Torment: Tides of Numenera" completely out of context of when it was said, who said it and what followed, and then pretending you're doing clever analysis.

It's not clever analysis, it's retarded. It's like grabbing Monsanto CEO's words about "hoping for a better future" and then talking about it as if it's his aim to bring peace and prosperity to earth.

Also:

roshan said:
1. Divinity Original Sin asked for money to complete and polish their game but still released a product completely unfinished beyond Cyseal.
2. Wasteland 2 promised a tactical RPG that turned out to have no other tactic than "shoot", but turned out to be a detailed container opener simulator.
3. Pillars of Shitternity promised an IE style game combining the best of BG, IWD and PST but turned out to be a hollow single player World of Warcraft clone made by interns.
4. Shadowrun Returns promised an old school RPG but turned out to be a simplistic tablet game.
5. Dead State turned out to be an incomplete, buggy mess.
6. Haven't really managed to comprehend why, but Banner Saga turned out to be disappointing for most too (possibly because the game implemented actual consequences which butthurt lots of people, but perhaps there were promises here too that were undelivered).

And then you go:

I'm not saying they were bad games

What is wrong with you dude? You're basically throwing a bucket of shit on five titles and then claim you actually don't mean it. Not to mention your opinion about each of the 6 titles you mentioned is edgelord-worthy. And cringeworthy.

BTW, I really dig how you call SR a simplistic tablet game but then go on to defend Banner Saga and 'fail to comprehend' how come people were kinda disappointed with the game's depth... :D
 
Last edited:

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
Joined
Jan 7, 2003
Messages
28,024
This thread is ridiculously dumb in places. Fargo's "hopes" are clearly PR-speech, and most likely have no bearing on what their actual expectations were. It's taking ""I hope we will raise something around the score of Torment: Tides of Numenera" completely out of context of when it was said, who said it and what followed, and then pretending you're doing clever analysis.

It's not clever analysis, it's retarded. It's like grabbing Monsanto CEO's words about "hoping for a better future" and then talking about it as if it's his aim to bring peace and prosperity to earth.
This.
 

roshan

Arcane
Joined
Apr 7, 2004
Messages
2,426
This thread is ridiculously dumb in places. Fargo's "hopes" are clearly PR-speech, and most likely have no bearing on what their actual expectations were. It's taking ""I hope we will raise something around the score of Torment: Tides of Numenera" completely out of context of when it was said, who said it and what followed, and then pretending you're doing clever analysis.

It's not clever analysis, it's retarded. It's like grabbing Monsanto CEO's words about "hoping for a better future" and then talking about it as if it's his aim to bring peace and prosperity to earth.

Hilarious.... I would fucking laugh if the claims above were not so utterly stupid. So now it is considered "good PR" to announce that you are hoping to raise a large amount of money on Kickstarter and miss that goal by 63%. Apparently is it also good PR to go on the record saying you will probably not be able to deliver on audiovisual goals unless said budget is reached.

What is wrong with you dude? You're basically throwing a bucket of shit on five titles and then claim you actually don't mean it. Not to mention your opinion about each of the 6 titles you mentioned is edgelord-worthy. And cringeworthy.

BTW, I really dig how you call SR a simplistic tablet game but then go on to defend Banner Saga and 'fail to comprehend' how come people were kinda disappointed with the game's depth... :D

Dude are you daft??? None of that actually reflects my views on the games, several of which I have not even played. I was explaining why several of the big Kickstarters proved to be either disappointing or lackluster to backers. Seriously the reasoning and comprehension abilities of some people on this site are not even comparable to that of my cat.
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
Joined
Jan 7, 2003
Messages
28,024
The full quote:

If you hired such a talented and renowned singer I assume you have a large budget for this game...

Well, we’re hoping to get a large budget for the game. Basically, I make games for the budget I can get. I hope we will raise something around the score of Torment: Tides of Numenera but I can’t count on that. We have all the marks checked but I tend to be skeptical and careful about everything. Besides, I don’t worry too much about attracting new people. I’m going to focus on my base audience and make them happy. However, I think when people see the visual side of the dungeon they’ll say: “They are super-ambitious and it is so full of personality.” When I’ve announced The Bard’s Tale IV on Twitter I had more retweets than ever before. Of course, there’s been some other dungeon-crawlers – like Legend of Grimrock and Might & Magic X – and they’re great but we are making something bigger.

There is a HUGE difference between saying "I hope we raise as much as Torment did; we really fucking need it and it's the only way to make a quality game" and saying "I hope we raise as much but I can't count on it; besides, our focus is on the core audience..."

It's kind of like me saying "I hope to sell 70,000 copies but I can't count on it". It's not a mission statement, it's not a stated goal, it's an off-hand remark that doesn't mean anything.
 

Mexi

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The full quote:



There is a HUGE difference between saying "I hope we raise as much as Torment did; we really fucking need it and it's the only way to make a quality game" and saying "I hope we raise as much but I can't count on it; besides, our focus is on the core audience..."

It's kind of like me saying "I hope to sell 70,000 copies but I can't count on it". It's not a mission statement, it's not a stated goal, it's an off-hand remark that doesn't mean anything.

You're full of shit if you think he's going to come out and say, what someone said, "We need 1 million or we're fucked." This is the dude that made Wasteland: 2. He's a bullshitter and fed us that garbage of a game... and didn't you write, or co-wrote (whatever), that abortion of a review on it?
 

roshan

Arcane
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Apr 7, 2004
Messages
2,426
The full quote:

There is a HUGE difference between saying "I hope we raise as much as Torment did; we really fucking need it and it's the only way to make a quality game" and saying "I hope we raise as much but I can't count on it; besides, our focus is on the core audience..."

It's kind of like me saying "I hope to sell 70,000 copies but I can't count on it". It's not a mission statement, it's not a stated goal, it's an off-hand remark that doesn't mean anything.

Less than a couple of hours after agreeing with a post claiming Fargo's statement was "PR speech", you then claim it is "an off-hand remark". Seems you are grasping at straws and pretty desperate to find any sort of excuse to write off what Fargo said.

Fanboys. Fanboys never change.
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
Joined
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Messages
28,024
Less than a couple of hours after agreeing with a post claiming Fargo's statement was "PR speech", you then claim it is "an off-hand remark". Seems you are grasping at straws and pretty desperate to find any sort of excuse to write off what Fargo said.

Fanboys. Fanboys never change.
First, I'm not a fanboy and WL (neither the original nor the sequel) isn't exactly my cup of tea. I'm excited about Torment - :I want to believe: - and I'm cautiously optimistic about BT4 because I like blobbers. Fargo tends to oversell and overhype, which makes him a very unreliable source. However, inXile is sticking with TB and I'll support them (as in back their games) for this reason alone.

Second, I agreed that the quote was taken "completely out of context of when it was said, who said it and what followed" (which is why I posted the quote in full later) and with the Monsanto analogy. Was I supposed to remove the two words (PR-speak) I didn't agree with?

You're full of shit if you think he's going to come out and say, what someone said, "We need 1 million or we're fucked."
There are different ways of saying it and it does add some urgency, so there are certain benefits of taking this road. However, my point is that saying "would be nice to triple the goal, but I can't count on it" is nothing but an off-hand remark and you can't say that he totally meant the first part of the sentence but not the second.

This is the dude that made Wasteland: 2. He's a bullshitter and fed us that garbage of a game...
Wait, you really thought the game was going to be exactly like the vision document described?

...and didn't you write, or co-wrote (whatever), that abortion of a review on it?
:butthurt:
 

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