Star Wars Battlefront 2 - now with lootbox drama

[Clockwork Knight]

 

[circ]

let the games die motherfuckers. buy manure with your savings

 

[Mark Richard]

I'm just wondering what the word at ActiBlizz is at the moment. I imagine there's a lot of rumbling about those fucking retards at EA/DICE that reached too far and now may end up buttfucking them all.

The gall of ActiBlizzard reps to throw shade at EA for loot box gambling while claiming their Teen rated game Overwatch doesn't belong in the conversation. Pretending to be the gamer's best friend isn't going to help against government regulation now that the cat is out of the bag.

 

[nodar]

Remember back when gamers were loudly against governments poking their noses into gaming and game industry rather than celebrating their meddling, like with violence in games debate back in 90s... Good times.

 

[Lahey]

http://www.cbc.ca/news/entertainment/video-games-loot-boxes-1.4373079

"ESRB does not consider loot boxes to be gambling," the North American games ratings organization told Kotaku. "While there's an element of chance in these mechanics, the player is always guaranteed to receive in-game content (even if the player unfortunately receives something they don't want)." The European games ratings board PEGI echoed that statement. "It's not up to PEGI to decide whether something is considered gambling or not — this is defined by national gambling laws," a representative told Eurogamer.

The discussion has even reached the British Parliament, after an MP asked the government "to help protect vulnerable adults and children from illegal gambling, in-game gambling and loot boxes within computer games." The government replied by saying only games where items can be exchanged for real money would fall under the purview of Britain's Gambling Commission.

Also: http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/inde...ed-posts-allowed.57009/page-1183#post-5388040

https://www.reddit.com/r/gaming/com...f_hawaii_announces_action_to_address/dq62w5m/

That post is at 9.6k now, and the parent is at 21.6k. Needs to blow up more.

 

[Santander02]

I know the Duke Nukem impersonator is a troll but I'll make this counter argument availible for ctrl-cing in case anyone else runs into some publisher plant making the same argument he's making outside this thread.

Despite being prompted multiple times by multiple goverments no study has ever being able to prove that violence in videogames provoked violent behaivour in children, meaning any sort of regulation beyond what is already in place would be utterly pointless and unjustified. Loot boxes on ther hand HAVE been proved to be linked to addictive behaivour that could harm children's, and adult's, mental health. so regulation in this one specific respect is wholly justified.

That and violence makes games awesome while microtransactions makes them suck. QED.

 

[Clockwork Knight]

other titles that could get shafted for encouraging gambling come to my mind...

Activision - Destiny 2 has a premium items store in-game. The items are cosmetic and can be found as drops, but you're still paying for random content.

Fun fact, a streamer banned me from his channel for pointing this out (also, the free pre-order weapon that is otherwise a rare drop) soon after release.

(edit: actually, one of the items raises reputation gain for the user and his party, which nets you regular items from quest givers, so it's not entirely cosmetics.)

Nintendo has the Badge Arcade, a crane game. You get free tries every day and the items are purely for decoration, but it's possible to pay and get nothing if you're going for a difficult piece.

(funny enough, I noticed Animal Crossing's Isabelle badges are ALWAYS placed in the hardest spots. Nintendo knows.)

more pics and deeper explanation in the links.

 

[Alienman]

Disgusting. Didn't think Nintendo was into that shit also.

 

[Lahey]

https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2017...ing-hawaiian-legislator-calls-them-predatory/
http://mashable.com/2017/11/22/belgium-loot-boxes/#ivb2FPy_ZmqR
https://www.polygon.com/2017/11/22/...-hawaii-belgium-banned-regulation-investigate
https://thenextweb.com/gaming/2017/11/22/belgium-loot-boxes-gambling/
https://www.cnbc.com/2017/11/22/sta...online-casino-preying-on-kids-vow-action.html
https://www.slashgear.com/battlefront-2s-loot-boxes-just-got-unexpectedly-serious-22508917/
http://www.mirror.co.uk/tech/loot-boxes-controversy-what-they-11566776
http://www.independent.co.uk/life-s...wars-battlefront-banned-belgium-a8070106.html
https://www.gamespot.com/articles/us-state-senator-says-star-wars-battlefront-2s-loo/1100-6455147/
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/gaming/news/hawaii-crack-predatory-loot-boxes-video-games/
http://dailycaller.com/2017/11/22/hawaii-launches-investigation-into-ea-over-gambling-concerns/
http://www.businessinsider.com/ea-star-wars-hawaii-gambling-2017-11
https://www.gamasutra.com/view/news...tboxes_banned_but_investigation_continues.php
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2...es-belgian-gaming-commission-hawaii-chris-lee

 

[Tehdagah]

I know the Duke Nukem impersonator is a troll but I'll make this counter argument availible for ctrl-cing in case anyone else runs into some publisher plant making the same argument he's making outside this thread.

Despite being prompted multiple times by multiple goverments no study has ever being able to prove that violence in videogames provoked violent behaivour in children, meaning any sort of regulation beyond what is already in place would be utterly pointless and unjustified. Loot boxes on ther hand HAVE been proved to be linked to addictive behaivour that could harm children's, and adult's, mental health. so regulation in this one specific respect is wholly justified.

That and violence makes games awesome while microtransactions makes them suck. QED.

Nothing big will happen, at best devs will be more careful with the content of lootboxes/microtransactions. Videogames (especially MMORPGs) are linked to addictive behaviour too.

 

[Santander02]

Mumorpeges have become and continue to be regulated in east asia already and it's about time the west catched up with it too.

Anyway Mr. Oracle be sure to come back here and tell all of us how much nothing has changed once this mess is all sorted out. As I said before I am done talking with you publisher asslickers.

 

[Parabalus]

other titles that could get shafted for encouraging gambling come to my mind...

Pmuch Valve's entire multiplayer lineup fits the bill. Nobody complained because they are cosmetics, and that's kinda where the line is drawn.

Regulatory suits on the other hand probably don't get the distinction.

 

[Edward The Mediocre]

Don't forget valve's defacto commodities market as well too.

 

[Cael]

The discussion has even reached the British Parliament, after an MP asked the government "to help protect vulnerable adults and children from illegal gambling, in-game gambling and loot boxes within computer games." The government replied by saying only games where items can be exchanged for real money would fall under the purview of Britain's Gambling Commission.

That is the loophole I mentioned before. Flash MMOs get around it by saying that they do not allow trading of items, which of course, has the side effect of people with multiple alts having to gamble with each alt to get the same stuff because you can't transfer between them. And to cover their arses even more, they say that the items belong to them, so it has no real world value either.

Interestingly enough, even back in the Diablo II days, exchanging items, even toons, for real money was a thing, but it was not considered gambling because you don't actually spend real money to acquire stuff. You just played the game.

It is the confluence of both in lootboxes (i.e., real money spent and chance factor) that makes it gambling.

 

[Lahey]

https://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/te...-gambling-regulator-says-20171123-gzr3ek.html

Loot boxes in video games 'constitute gambling', regulator says
The proliferation of "loot box" mechanics in high profile video games, particularly those available to children, is legally questionable and constitutes gambling, according to a Victorian regulator.

In email correspondence with a local university student, the Victorian Commission for Gambling and Liquor Regulation (VCGLR) confirmed loot boxes — where players use real money or currency earned in the game to purchase packs of random in-game rewards — were considered gambling under current legislation, but were hard to regulate.

The VCGLR is the body that issues licenses for bartenders, proof of age cards, and generally regulates venues where alcohol and/or gambling will happen. Video games isn't typically one of those industries, but with all the recent controversy around Star Wars Battlefront 2 and loot boxes in general this year, the student got in touch and asked: do they constitute gambling?

Jarrod Wolfe, a strategic analyst in the Victorian regulators' compliance division, replied:

My name is Jarrod Wolfe and I am the Strategic Analyst for the Compliance Division at VCGLR. I have received your correspondence in regards to gambling functionality (loot boxes) being incorporated into games. Your research and suppositions on the matter are correct; what occurs with "loot boxes" does constitute gambling by the definition of the Victorian Legislation. Unfortunately where the complexity arises is in jurisdiction and our powers to investigate. Legislation has not moved as quick as the technology; at both State and Federal level we are not necessarily equipped to determine the legality of these practices in lieu of the fact the entities responsible are overseas.

Wolfe went on to say that the VCGLR has been "engaging with interstate and international counterparts" to work on policy changes that would "modernise and inform both federal and state based legislation". It's also particularly concerned with the proliferation of gambling-based mechanics being targeted at minors, which Wolfe said was "not just morally reprehensible, but is also legally questionable".

The real kicker, as Wolfe wrote in a second email, is one of jurisdiction.

Gambling isn't necessarily "Unauthorised gambling" so there are a lot of variables at play. For perhaps a real world example think of overseas betting agencies. Such as Bet 365 – Australians can and do use this service; yet it is clearly administered and run from the UK. This isn't illegal. However, if that company set up "shop" in Victoria or started specifically advertising and offering gambling products to Victorians. Then we could investigate and it could be considered a breach of legislation and we would pursue, overseas or not. One of the downfalls is that using overseas based products, Victorian residents do not have us to investigate any complaints or issues they have.

The VCGLR analyst noted that the regulator could potentially work with other Australian bodies to keep a closer eye on gambling elements in video games.

For instance, the Classification Board could get involved. "If these companies want to include significant elements of gambling in their products then perhaps we should work with 'The Australian Classification Board' to ensure than any product that does that and monetises it gets an immediate R rating," Wolfe proposed. "I could imagine that this would send ripples through the industry and it would support the objectives of the Gambling Legislation to ensure minors are not encouraged to participate in gambling."

Game publishers EA and Activision-Blizzard have been contacted for a comment on these developments.

:australia:

 

[Drakron]

That is the loophole I mentioned before. Flash MMOs get around it by saying that they do not allow trading of items, which of course, has the side effect of people with multiple alts having to gamble with each alt to get the same stuff because you can't transfer between them. And to cover their arses even more, they say that the items belong to them, so it has no real world value either.

Actually the way they got around so it wasnt gambling was that you always won something, that is every loot box give you something ... lets take the game at hand, Battlefront 2. You always got something and you turned duplicated into points, you never lost money but the system was set in a way that you had to grind for a very long so you could unlock.

They all do it, I still play STO kinda and Lock Boxes give a minimum of 4 Lobi Crystal (a currency type to buy exclusive items) so they can claim players always at least got 4 Lobi Crystal and some shitty idea, I have been playing since it gone F2P in 2012 and I always read some story of someone that wasted over $200 opening then so he could get the grand prize a exclusive ship ... the ships on the Lobi store? they cost 900 Lobi Crystals, I could go on about STO model but that is kinda unique to that game.

How is this damaging to MMOs? because eventually all they produce is around loot boxes, mechanics are introduced around then so you cannot really progress, because they dont fucking care Gold Sellers step in and just sell you the contents, this causes the economy to tank and you either are a whale, a bitter vet that was just ahead of the curve or you have to be a gold farmer to get anywhere.

What EA did was well beyond crossing the line, Overwatch at least its smart on it being just skins and emotes ... you dont need then to unlock characters, you also dont need then to unlock gear and because they are cosmetic they can get away with it, iBattlefron 2 wasnt even a fuckiing F2P game but a $60 one, it was greed and that greed been for a long time now, they were just the first to go over the line and how they gone over the line.

Interestingly enough, even back in the Diablo II days, exchanging items, even toons, for real money was a thing, but it was not considered gambling because you don't actually spend real money to acquire stuff. You just played the game.

It is the confluence of both in lootboxes (i.e., real money spent and chance factor) that makes it gambling.[/QUOTE]

Well its not gambling, RMT been something around for a long time, I know it existed in EverQuest as I remember ... people even sell accounts, its not regulated because its regulated, its against the Terms of Service or in Diablo IIII it was allowed by Blizzard under specific rules (AKA, in their own store) but Second Life allows the selling of user created content.

In the end the issue bogs down to this, they could sell it for $9.99 but they make more money if they put it on a Loot Box and sell then at $0.99 ... its a disgusting way to sell content by making people gamble for it.

 

[Archibald]

Explanation that you always get something doesn't really work for me, if you are not new player that "something" is often crap that you don't care about nor need so it might as well be "nothing".

 

[Cael]

Actually the way they got around so it wasnt gambling was that you always won something, that is every loot box give you something ... lets take the game at hand, Battlefront 2. You always got something and you turned duplicated into points, you never lost money but the system was set in a way that you had to grind for a very long so you could unlock.

They all do it, I still play STO kinda and Lock Boxes give a minimum of 4 Lobi Crystal (a currency type to buy exclusive items) so they can claim players always at least got 4 Lobi Crystal and some shitty idea, I have been playing since it gone F2P in 2012 and I always read some story of someone that wasted over $200 opening then so he could get the grand prize a exclusive ship ... the ships on the Lobi store? they cost 900 Lobi Crystals, I could go on about STO model but that is kinda unique to that game.

How is this damaging to MMOs? because eventually all they produce is around loot boxes, mechanics are introduced around then so you cannot really progress, because they dont fucking care Gold Sellers step in and just sell you the contents, this causes the economy to tank and you either are a whale, a bitter vet that was just ahead of the curve or you have to be a gold farmer to get anywhere.

What EA did was well beyond crossing the line, Overwatch at least its smart on it being just skins and emotes ... you dont need then to unlock characters, you also dont need then to unlock gear and because they are cosmetic they can get away with it, iBattlefron 2 wasnt even a fuckiing F2P game but a $60 one, it was greed and that greed been for a long time now, they were just the first to go over the line and how they gone over the line.

Well its not gambling, RMT been something around for a long time, I know it existed in EverQuest as I remember ... people even sell accounts, its not regulated because its regulated, its against the Terms of Service or in Diablo IIII it was allowed by Blizzard under specific rules (AKA, in their own store) but Second Life allows the selling of user created content.

In the end the issue bogs down to this, they could sell it for $9.99 but they make more money if they put it on a Loot Box and sell then at $0.99 ... its a disgusting way to sell content by making people gamble for it.

The thing is, EA is not even the one that crossed the line the furthest. One of the worst I have found? This one, which is why I harp on it.

Super powered exclusive items. Items so powerful that it increases your power rating by hundreds of thousands of points each (note that starting level 1 characters have power ratings <500). Items that you MUST pay over $600 for in order to get and costs you several components that each requires you grind for months to get, or you can pay for those components as well. That has probably gone up with the next tier of upgrades by now for even more money. I walked away years ago after seeing what kind of game it is.
Exclusive items that ONLY appear in lootboxes that you MUST buy, BUT! There is only a <0.2% chance of it dropping from a lootbox.
Chance based upgrading of items. To upgrade to the next tier, you need two of the previous tier. Base L1 items costs $20 each and there is a limited number of different types you can buy and they have low max bonus limits. In order to get other types that give much higher stats, you have to buy lootboxes and hope for the drop. And if you FAIL to upgrade (remember it is chance based?), you LOSE one of the items. There are 10 tiers of upgrading per item. That's right, on a failed upgrade, you can lose an item that cost you $20*2^8 (=$5120) to make, assuming that you somehow avoided failing even once before.
In-game minigames that you "roll dice" for that requires you use real money (to buy their equivalent of Lobi Crystals which you spend for dice rolls).
And EVERYWHERE, and I do mean EVERYWHERE, they are tempting you to spend money. "Oh, you need one more roll to get to the end of today's weekly minigame? You can have it, if you pay $2. It is only $2, right? No biggie!" "Oh you are out of looting attempts for the day, but this guy attacked you? Well, you can have more attack attempts, just pay money." "Weekly arena and you are out of attempts, the ranking is about to be finalised in 1 minute and you got kicked to 100 spot because the ranked 100 guy won against the dumbass AI version of you? You can get back your position if you pay money."

Everything is chance based. It is horrendous. And that is not even including the fact that they merge servers every other week, forcing newbies who have become the top of their server to suddenly compete with people who were months older with more time and legacy items under their belt to encourage spending, knowing the top guys would all have invariably spent to get to that position in the first place and would hate to have their positions lost. Even worse, they have regular "Who is the most powerful by power rating" competitions, which encourages spending even more, and even more regular "If you spend X amount, you get FREE stuff! Time to spend it BIG!" events complete with a table of spend thresholds.

And the paid trolls and shills that are put in-game to enrage other players to get them to spend. And more. You can write a whole novel on the ways and means they use to get people to spend and gamble.

They have multiple servers dedicated to America, Europe, etc., and have been operating for at least 6-8 years, and yet nothing have been done about them, even though I have seen 14 year old kids running around in the game. Where are the politicians screaming their heads off about this kind of games, most of which are out of China?

 

[Dexter]

So, apparently people are doing this with the new Steam Awards:

 

[Average Manatee]

Explanation that you always get something doesn't really work for me, if you are not new player that "something" is often crap that you don't care about nor need so it might as well be "nothing".

Yeah, I don't see that working. Else slot machines would pay you back 10 cents every time to skirt the law.

 

[Daedalos]

So Joe finally reviewed it, and he gave it a surprising 6/10. Surprising to me, because all the other bandwagon reviews have been scores like 2/5 4/10 5/10 etc. just being edgy.

But Joe has been one of the most vocal and angry of them all, and he still gave it a 6/10. Not bad I guess ;D

 

[fantadomat]

The angry pendejo give it 6/10, then it is a must buy. Sorry guys i will go and run toward steam now!

 

[CreamyBlood]

Yesterday at 1:08am

Furthermore, the slowness of progression is not THAT bad. I've gotten all the best shit in under 30 hours of playtime. Not too shabby imo.

Yesterday at 4:51am
...except I have been extremely vocal on reddit etc. about my unhappiness with the current state of the slowness of progression system in SWBF2, and also,...

Like I said, the whole lootbox MTX drama have entirely, and I do mean, entirely unaffected me and my playtime during 70+ hours.

So confusing.

 

[Daedalos]

Yesterday at 1:08am

Furthermore, the slowness of progression is not THAT bad. I've gotten all the best shit in under 30 hours of playtime. Not too shabby imo.

Yesterday at 4:51am
...except I have been extremely vocal on reddit etc. about my unhappiness with the current state of the slowness of progression system in SWBF2, and also,...

Like I said, the whole lootbox MTX drama have entirely, and I do mean, entirely unaffected me and my playtime during 70+ hours.

So confusing.

Just because I don't personally have a giant problem with it, doesn't mean I can't be vocal about it for the sake of others, understand?

Not everybody plays as much as me, and not everybody knows the tips and tricks to get progressions done faster. I always min/max my gameplay to get the best results.

The progression IS slow, but it's not gamebreaking slow, just really really annoying and unnessecary.

 

[Cael]

So Joe finally reviewed it, and he gave it a surprising 6/10. Surprising to me, because all the other bandwagon reviews have been scores like 2/5 4/10 5/10 etc. just being edgy.

But Joe has been one of the most vocal and angry of them all, and he still gave it a 6/10. Not bad I guess ;D

Oh wow! Let's post the one and ONLY rating above 5/10 because that would so TOTALLY prove my point that the game is worth sinking money into. No, I didn't waste my money! You are so mean to say that! I spent my money well! It is the best thing I have ever done, well, since the other time I spent money on the best game EVAH (also by EA)... Or the time before that, or the one before tha- Shut up! Just shut up! Battlefront II is the best EVAH! Neener! Neener! I can't hear you!