Stealth gaming,has it peaked?

[sullynathan]

Making my way through Splinter Cell chaos theory and it's phenomenal. It's AI is very aware of its surroundings but I realize, this is a 10 year old game and I'm not hearing many examples of "good" stealth games in this day and age except for Styx and Hitman 2016.
So, what are other good examples and what could bring back this genre?

 

[~*´¨¯¨`*·~-.¸-AIN'T]

Stealth gaming peaked in 1998 with Thief. Then in 2000 Thief 2 reached the same peak. Nothing's come close since.

 

[Taka-Haradin puolipeikko]

X-ray vision becoming standard feature in stealth games has been major decline.

 

[DraQ]

Stealth gaming will peak once someone realizes that emphasis on stealth and ability to silently incapacitate patrols without the remaining ones getting suspicious don't synergize.
Same with emphasis on non-violence and unlimited, reliable non-lethal takedowns.

 

[Beowulf]

Stealth games with third person camera are more of a puzzle games, where you time your movements to the patrol routes, than stealth games per se.
The ability to freely observe without putting yourself in harms way (the possibility of detection) hampers the stealth element.

Youtube lately is full of videos with titles "Pure stealth", "100% Ghost" when refering for example to Dishonored or AssCreed games.
Just compare that to Thief playthroughs on expert.


Steady decline.

 

[sullynathan]

Stealth gaming will peak once someone realizes that emphasis on stealth and ability to silently incapacitate patrols without the remaining ones getting suspicious don't synergize.
Same with emphasis on non-violence and unlimited, reliable non-lethal takedowns.

Chaos theory tackles this issue by allowing guards the ability to search if a guard isn't at an outpost. For example, in an early level, certain guards a fixing elevators. If you rush in and take out the guard and remove him from his job, another guard comes in surprised and starts searching for him. It's just that this doesn't happen enough so far throughout the game. The guards or mercs won't search other outposts unless their provoked, or if it is in their AI path.
The non violence thing I think has been fixed by games like MGSV that don't allow you to incapacitate armored targets.

Stealth games with third person camera are more of a puzzle games, where you time your movements to the patrol routes, than stealth games per se.
The ability to freely observe without putting yourself in harms way (the possibility of detection) hampers the stealth element.

Not completely true.

 

[Gangrelrumbler]

Stealth gaming will peak once someone realizes that emphasis on stealth and ability to silently incapacitate patrols without the remaining ones getting suspicious don't synergize.
Same with emphasis on non-violence and unlimited, reliable non-lethal takedowns.

IIRC one of the unique features of Desperados was that the AI would get suspicious if people disappeared. Too bad the rest of the game was pretty bland.

 

[DraQ]

Youtube lately is full of videos with titles "Pure stealth", "100% Ghost" when refering for example to Dishonored or AssCreed games.
Just compare that to Thief playthroughs on expert.

At least Dishonored is pure FPP. The AI's ability to counter stealth is a bad joke, though.

Anyway, the main problem with "stealth" takedowns is that generally it's better for player to remove a threat once than to have to avoid it repeatedly.
If, in a stealth game, you give player tools to dismantle the whole security structure of a level without reacting as player does just that, you quickly no longer have a stealth game.

What you need to do is to counter-incentivize leaving security structure - patrols, security measures, lighting, etc. - alone if possible, to encourage player to devise and implement plans involving only minimal changes, and to react to their repercussion.
A level cleared of patrols shouldn't be the safe level for player to move around, it should be an obvious situation to whoever has posted the guards in the first place resulting in teams knowing you are there being specifically sent to find you - agressive, proactive and alert, as opposed to bored and reactive, also likely better trained and equipped than the regular guys.

Player should be conditioned that doing *anything* that may allow someone to infer they were there is a potential failure mode. In a true stealth game altering the state of the level should be similar to taking hits in a combat focused one.
Leaving the antagonist's stronghold with all the guards patrolling, all the doors in the same position as before you entered, all torches lit, all windows unbroken, no spent accessories left behind and only a copy of antagonist's plans (with original being safely locked in its safe) in your pocket as a proof you actually were there should be the perfect completion game measures you against.

 

[DJOGamer PT]

I'm not hearing many examples of "good" stealth games in this day and age except for Styx

"good" stealth games ... Styx

Stix as a great level design. But that's it. Gameplay wise is bad, the AI terrible.

If you are seeking the best shealth games out there, here's a list:

• Hitman 2016 - Get it when the full game as come put. When all the bugs and AI problems are all fixed
• Metal Gear Solid V: The Phantom Pain - The only great game that Kojima-san as made. Gameplay wise this game is a masterpiece, with various factors and small details that affect your performance (such as weight, equipement, camouflage, weather, terrain in general, light, the enemy revenge system and even the quality of your base), one the best AI's there is in gaming, the econimic and base are pretty solid systems. Its problems, the level design is most of the times mediocre but there are some great levels, some mission are a little repetive and poorly made (but the mission where you have to assinate, sabotage, some rescues and a stealing mission are fenomenal), the world outside the level is pretty empty and it's biggest problem is that the vannilla game is just to damn easy (SO BE SURE TO INSTALL THE HARDCORE MOD - seriously otherwise you be bored pretty soon)
• The Dark Mod - It's almost perfect, just get it (specially since it's free)
  
• Thief 1 and 2 - For obvious reasons (but the dark mod is better)
• Hitman 2 and Blood Money
• Splinter Cell 1, Pandora Tomorrow, Double Angent - IMO chaos theory is the best but these ones are also good
• Deus Ex 1, Human Revolution Directors Cut, Humankind Divided - they are not tottally shealth games but it's amazingly done, with various ways of achieving your goal, most codexers might tell you the new ones are shit (just because it uses the Deus Ex name) but they are spetacular games none the less in both gameplay, level and missions (in the last one the side quests are better than the main ones though), if you are going to try out Human Revolution download the Directors Cut instead (I truly mean it)
• Dishonered - The level design and the ways you can acomplish your missions are truly different, it's a shame that blink when maxed out let's you bypass most pretty much the entire level, and due to the brain dead beta testers the game's AI has been dumbed down by the developers, still download the game of the year edition (the expansions are worth it) and slap in the difficulty mod and you'll have a good experience.

Well can't remeber anymore good shealth games for the moment, so that's it.

 

[sullynathan]

DJOGamer PT I've played SC 1 & Pandora tomorrow, Human revolution and I own Teef 1, 2, Hitman 2 & Blood money. I've played MGSV, and I liked the gameplay and the AI reactions but the game was really easy. Its highly forgiving.

Youtube lately is full of videos with titles "Pure stealth", "100% Ghost" when refering for example to Dishonored or AssCreed games.
Just compare that to Thief playthroughs on expert.

Leaving the antagonist's stronghold with all the guards patrolling, all the doors in the same position as before you entered, all torches lit, all windows unbroken, no spent accessories left behind and only a copy of antagonist's plans (with original being safely locked in its safe) in your pocket as a proof you actually were there should be the perfect completion game measures you against.

Splinter Cell from the original to chaos theory allows you to do most of that on most levels.

 

[DraQ]

Splinter Cell from the original to chaos theory allows you to do most of that on most levels.

But does it cost you if you don't?
What I have in mind are consequences like this:

That broken window? More patrols posted later on.
Stuff physically taken when copying information would have sufficed? A safehouse raided.
Vanished guard? An ally turning up dead in the ditch after being taken for interrogation.
Left a rope arrow behind? A spooked fixer/informant.
Etc.

 

[Mustawd]

Hitman was pretty gud. Didn't play the rest of the sequels though.

 

[sullynathan]

Splinter Cell from the original to chaos theory allows you to do most of that on most levels.

But does it cost you if you don't?
What I have in mind are consequences like this:

That broken window? More patrols posted later on.
Stuff physically taken when copying information would have sufficed? A safehouse raided.
Vanished guard? An ally turning up dead in the ditch after being taken for interrogation.
Left a rope arrow behind? A spooked fixer/informant.
Etc.

nah, each level of Splinter Cell is separate and takes place in different locations around the world. For example one mission will be in china and you will be dealing with Chinese guards, the next will be in the USA and you try not to kill any police officers, then next mission you try to infiltrate a ship with mercs. From a narrative perspective it wouldn't make sense either since Sam is a spy and usually gets sent on missions to infiltrate different locations pertaining to certain individuals or to get certain info. He works for the NSA, so I don't know who would have the balls to attack them.

 

[Wirdschowerdn]

Stealth and 3rd-person is an oxymoron.

 

[DraQ]

Splinter Cell from the original to chaos theory allows you to do most of that on most levels.

But does it cost you if you don't?
What I have in mind are consequences like this:

That broken window? More patrols posted later on.
Stuff physically taken when copying information would have sufficed? A safehouse raided.
Vanished guard? An ally turning up dead in the ditch after being taken for interrogation.
Left a rope arrow behind? A spooked fixer/informant.
Etc.

nah, each level of Splinter Cell is separate and takes place in different locations around the world. For example one mission will be in china and you will be dealing with Chinese guards, the next will be in the USA and you try not to kill any police officers, then next mission you try to infiltrate a ship with mercs. From a narrative perspective it wouldn't make sense either since Sam is a spy and usually gets sent on missions to infiltrate different locations pertaining to certain individuals or to get certain info. He works for the NSA, so I don't know who would have the balls to attack them.

It doesn't need to be those exact failure modes - diplomatic crises, spy networks getting rooted out, and overall stink being raised, possibly to the point where getting rid of one own agent starts to look like a better solution are just as good.

The important thing is that without those failure modes there is no reason WHY the game should be stealth focused in the first place.

 

[sullynathan]

It doesn't need to be those exact failure modes - diplomatic crises, spy networks getting rooted out, and overall stink being raised, possibly to the point where getting rid of one own agent starts to look like a better solution are just as good.

The important thing is that without those failure modes there is no reason WHY the game should be stealth focused in the first place.

Sam is a splinter cell that works for the NSA. NSA does the the spy thing to get sensitive information without the need for the army, so he gets outfitted with the items he needs to infiltrate, get shit done then pulled out. It's not like he goes to the same place twice, and for certain missions, a clean up team will be sent afterwards.

 

[Ivan]

FP: Thief
TP: Mark of the Ninja, Splinter Cell

MGS5 plays amazingly well but there isn't a good campaign to be found to back it up.

 

[sser]

DraQ have you played the Splinter Cell games...? Fisher is an NSA agent often going into foreign countries. In one mission you even sneak into the CIA. Rarely are there missions that seem like they could have been better handled by a Rainbow Six-type conceit.

Edit: unless you mean for gameplay reasons. But even then more often than not nobody is going to know who was in-and-out of there so it's fairly moot. Some ghost killing people in one location isn't going to raise the suspicions of people in an entirely different area of the world, for example. IMO, fail-states are better kept to the levels until some stealth game comes up with a very open-world type approach, but I have a hard time picturing that being a thing.

 

[sullynathan]

DraQ have you played the Splinter Cell games...? Fisher is an NSA agent often going into foreign countries. In one mission you even sneak into the CIA. Rarely are there missions that seem like they could have been better handled by a Rainbow Six-type conceit.

Edit: unless you mean for gameplay reasons. But even then more often than not nobody is going to know who was in-and-out of there so it's fairly moot. Some ghost killing people in one location isn't going to raise the suspicions of people in an entirely different area of the world, for example. IMO, fail-states are better kept to the levels until some stealth game comes up with a very open-world type approach, but I have a hard time picturing that being a thing.

I don't think he has. What he mentions seems more like what MGSV was going for. I didn't get very far, but from what I've read, in MGSV, if you get enough head shots on enemies, then later missions in the same location start having enemies with helmets or armor so you can't take them down with close quarters combat.

 

[Unkillable Cat]

Thief set the standard back in 1998, and even though many games have tried, they haven't been really able to top that standard.

However, there is room for improvement in stealth games...but for some odd reason, we haven't seen it happen yet. Enemy AI spotting/tracking threats by shadows being cast is just one example.

 

[ortucis]

Splinter Cell, Styx or any other such third person "stealth" game aren't really stealth games.

Games like Thief and DeusEx had real stealth. You can't cheat and look around corners in FPS view, so it actually feels challenging.


Also, I quit playing Styx half-way through. That game does absolutely nothing new or unique with the formula and worse, it fucking repeats same shtick that you get bored of after first hour of the game. The shit story didn't help. As far as Splinter Cell is concerned, the new one was good but my favorite still is Conviction. Do keep in mind, I don't consider SC games to be any more stealthy than games like Styx or Hitman so I enjoyed Conviction's presentation and story (I play all SC games for that).

 

[sullynathan]

my favorite still is Conviction

 

[an Administrator]

Hitman 2016.

Hitman games were more murder simulators than 'stealth' games.
I recall most of time i was getting the Silent Assassin ranking just with switching some disguises and not sneaking around.

 

[dunno lah]

Hitman 2016.

Hitman games were more murder simulators than 'stealth' games.
I recall most of time i was getting the Silent Assassin ranking just with switching some disguises and not sneaking around.

Hidden Valley in Hitman 2 could be considered a stealth mission.

 

[an Administrator]

Hitman 2016.

Hitman games were more murder simulators than 'stealth' games.
I recall most of time i was getting the Silent Assassin ranking just with switching some disguises and not sneaking around.

Hidden Valley in Hitman 2 could be considered a stealth mission.

In Hitman 2 almost every mission could be a stealth mission cause disguise system was rigged. Like guards will detect you if you stay like 5 seconds around them on higher difficulties.