Strength and dexterity in RPGs

[varangos]

Look how tomm masterfully dual wield the katana to kill his enemies

 

[Jrpgfan]

If I'm not mistaken, I think M&B got that right. STR increased the damage dealt with bows and allowed you to pick longer/heavier bows. Actually when it comes to medieval warfare that game got a lot of things right. It's a shame it lacked proper quests and overall content. If it wasn't for that I'd probably have 600+ hours and counting by now instead of only 300.

 

[SymbolicFrank]

About katanas: why do the Japanese use wooden sticks instead of forks to eat? And ceramic spoons? Because they had no iron in Japan. In Europe, iron forks and spoons were common.


I agree about polearms as the most used and often best weapon.

Against chain mail, for slicing and piercing you have to hit the unprotected spots. But a hammer or morning star works well. And against plate mail, you want a maul, a pointy hammer or a two-handed sword.

As a maul is very unwieldy, that leaves a spear with a pointy hammer (that does have a name, but I don't know it) or a full halberd for the unarmored, and either a maul or a two-handed sword for the knight in plate armor. And certainly no spears or other piercing weapons for the knight. Because piercing weapons have the tendency to get stuck.

If you are well protected, you don't want to get swarmed. You want to be able to sweep an empty space around you. And you want to be able to harm an enemy knight if you encounter one. Both have the reach, the maul has the weight and the two-handed sword has the small contact area. And as an added bonus, it still could be used for a piercing attack if really needed.

Those Two-Handed Great Swords, or Doppelhänders were a lot heavier as well, two to four times the weight of a longsword (up to four kilogram). And up to two times as long. Those were the swords used in war.

 

[Mustawd]

Huh, it's kind of funny that you do see that somewhat in boxing. Since it's the day before weigh-ins, boxers drain down and rehydrate back up 10-20 pounds. Mass gives a clear advantage when everything is equal. That's why you see fighters draining down and trying to get a weight advantage over an opponent. It doesn't always work, Mayweather/Canelo, but sometimes it makes even the best fighters look like they're fighting a brick fucking wall, Lebedev/Jones.

Not that I know anything about swinging a sword, though. Just saying that mass is definitely a plus, and oftentimes, greater mass does come with greater strength.

Also, Mayweather's defense has a lot of names: shoulder roll, shell, and Hopkins calls it the turtle shell.

Thanks for the reminder on the stance. Shell is what I've heard it referred to the most. I always thought it was an awesome way to fight. I never got very far with my own boxing skills, but it would have been cool to explore that option. Then again, I'm a leftie, so it'd probably be goofy as hell. Sigh.

 

[Mustawd]

The more I think about, the more intelligence stat seems like a lost cause - there is no way to implement it without player's own intelligence leaking through and it looks too critical for about any successful character to meaningfully balance it, maybe add mental stats dealing with specific types of activity like focus for magic and eloquence for dialogue (if you really want your Fallout style dialogue experience) but drop intelligence as general stat. You still can have dumb NPCs if they are written and scripted like that and dumb PCs if they are played stupidly (synonymous with "dead")

Agree with this. It's hard to abstract being skilled enough to feint a thrust or to bait your opponent into making a mistake. Those are probably just going to be included in the weapon/fighting skill of the character.

 

[mutonizer]

Hmm, going back to the original topic, nobody mentioning GURPS here yet?
Not perfect but DEX governs most physical skills (with a couple ST based expections and IQ based options depending on situation), treats Muscle Powered range weapons properly (ST) and even makes differences in skills between actual combat skills and just sport skills and even demonstration skills. ST also impacts all damage you do as long as you're phyiscally involved in the energy generation for the attack somehow (ie: not for guns). Also handles reach weapons and close combat fairly decently (depends how far you want to push the rules really).

 

[Jrpgfan]

About katanas: why do the Japanese use wooden sticks instead of forks to eat? And ceramic spoons? Because they had no iron in Japan. In Europe, iron forks and spoons were common.

I always thought it was a tradition inherited from the chinese. Maybe in China they didn't have iron either?

Not trying to be a smartass. Just asking out of curiosity, this is a subject that interests me.

Here what I found on google:

"China, Japan, Korea, and Vietnam food is usually eaten with chopsticks; but it was the Chinese who were the earliest culture some five thousand years ago. Their food cooked in pots required twigs to remove it. Overtime, as population grew - people began chopping food into smaller pieces so it would cook more quickly thus minimizing the use of wood for cooking - twigs gradually turned into chopsticks

Some people think that the great scholar Confucius, who lived from roughly 551 to 479 B.C., influenced the development of chopsticks. A vegetarian, Confucius believed knives would remind people of slaughterhouses and were too violent for use at the table.

The use of chopsticks reflected chinese pragmatism and frugality in overcoming the difficulties of life. Famine, drought were common in ancient China; therfore food need to be shared between family members; picking only small morsels with chopsticks to accompany bowls of rice. (Fork-&-spoon would have enabled a user to take large portions - inconsiderate and selfish when food is scarce.) "

 

[SymbolicFrank]

About katanas: why do the Japanese use wooden sticks instead of forks to eat? And ceramic spoons? Because they had no iron in Japan. In Europe, iron forks and spoons were common.

I always thought it was a tradition inherited from the chinese. Unless in China they didn't have iron either?

Not trying to be a smartass. Just asking out of curiosity, this is a subject that interests me.

China is strange, in many ways. They invented a lot, but it was a slave culture. Like most of the region up to today, really. Japan as well. And yes, they were the example for most of the others.

With "slave culture", I mean that there were only masters with no respect for human life, and servants who got punished severely for doing or thinking anything not directly ordered. Independent thought was often punished by death.

That's why it has stayed mostly the same over the millennia. And the poor people have very little of any value.

Only very recently has that started to change. But the Chinese and Japanese still have a problem with independent thought. That's why they copy stuff, but don't come up with new things.

 

[SymbolicFrank]

The main difference between China and Japan was, AFAIK, that while China has long been a nation ruled by warlords, they had a strict hierarchy in place. Japan was a warrior culture where every warlord (samurai) was quite independent.

So, while in China climbing the hierarchy was the game, it was open warfare between the samurai in Japan. Weapons and armor (smiting) were the cultural highlight. In China it was more poems and backstabbing.

 

[Haba]

About katanas: why do the Japanese use wooden sticks instead of forks to eat? And ceramic spoons? Because they had no iron in Japan. In Europe, iron forks and spoons were common.

Damn shame they didn't have trees

oh wait.

The honourable and upright man keeps well away from both the slaughterhouse and the kitchen. And he allows no knives on his table.

Must've been the lack of iron.

 

[Beastro]

In reality, the primary thing you need to effectively use a bow is strength. Great strength for longbows and composite bows. About 50 kg on average for a bow used in war. And you need to be able to keep it drawn for a bit, so you can aim.

Someone found himself Lindybeige's youtube channel I see.

Pole-arm users would mildly benefit from strength for endurance in long-lasting battles. But as individual battles lasted mere seconds and even in large battles with many combatants the actual fighting tended to be over in minutes, that wasn't a concern very often.

Why use strength for a weapon that requires endurance.

If only there was another stat for that...

But playing along, another wep that would require that would be a rapier, since the way they're used often means constantly holding them up around head length that is far more taxing than other swords that came before them.

1. women (male attribute strength vs female attribute dexterity/agility)

Haven't played a game in awhile with gender differenced stats, but IIRC, isn't high constitution and lower more the thing for females?

 

[Jrpgfan]

About katanas: why do the Japanese use wooden sticks instead of forks to eat? And ceramic spoons? Because they had no iron in Japan. In Europe, iron forks and spoons were common.

I always thought it was a tradition inherited from the chinese. Unless in China they didn't have iron either?

Not trying to be a smartass. Just asking out of curiosity, this is a subject that interests me.

China is strange, in many ways. They invented a lot, but it was a slave culture. Like most of the region up to today, really. Japan as well. And yes, they were the example for most of the others.

With "slave culture", I mean that there were only masters with no respect for human life, and servants who got punished severely for doing or thinking anything not directly ordered. Independent thought was often punished by death.

That's why it has stayed mostly the same over the millennia. And the poor people have very little of any value.

Only very recently has that started to change. But the Chinese and Japanese still have a problem with independent thought. That's why they copy stuff, but don't come up with new things.

I partially agree to that. Japan still has some of that "master-servant" mentality imbued to them, but nowadays hardly anyone comes up with something new. To be more specific, since after WW2, everyone copies America. We watch american TV and try to make american TV. We listen to american music and try to make american music. We play american games and try to make american games. We try to imitate all sorts of american habits. In sum, we wanna be americans, just like most people wanted to be roman when the Roman Empire ruled the world. So I think it's kinda unfair to imply only Japan does that and put the blame on their culture. Maybe if they didn't lose the war it would be different, maybe if it was them who bombed the USA and fucked them up they were gonna be the ones copying Japan. Just my 2 cents.

 

[Norfleet]

"Troop vs troop" is more about strategy/tactics. You know, the Roman cohort(?) where it is much about attrition, focus on shield defense while trying to get kills with the gladius, and then the first rank moving to the rear while the second line takes over when the first line is tired, etc. Not sure if short spears would be as more or less or equally useful, though. But just from historical fact that's how it was done.

Well, that's pretty much what happened. The original Roman Hastati used the hasta, the spear. They were rearmed with the gladius because this made them more mobile than spear formations, with the shields evolving to the big rectangular scutum we associate with the Roman legion to give the protection needed now they they had traded in their long, pointy sticks. Eventually, faced with the fact that pointy sticks were both cheaper and more effective against the increasingly cavalry-equipped enemies they were fighting, they went back to pointy sticks.

Haven't played a game in awhile with gender differenced stats, but IIRC, isn't high constitution and lower more the thing for females?

Not really. Females have better endurance and stronger immune systems, but still lack the physical toughness of males and cannot withstand as much damage before dying. CON in RPGs being typically the attribute that controls how many hitpoints you get, would be higher in males as well. Females would at best receive a bonus to rolls vs. disease and poison.

The flipside of this is that when the difference in strength between a human and a hobbit is only -2, the difference between a human male and a human female doesn't even register. The simple truth is that while the average male will exhibit superior or equal performance in pretty much all lines of adventuring career where the stats are portrayed realistically, characters are not generally average people: They are freaks. If someone wants to play a female warrior with an 18 strength, I see no reason to stop them. Of course, a female with an 18 strength looks like an East German wrestler...might be worth pointing that out.

 

[Prime Junta]

Fuck, you guys really don't know the first thing about Chinese history. But by all means, carry on.

(Or, if you like, here's an easy-to-read primer: http://www.amazon.com/China-History-John-Keay/dp/0465025188 )

 

[varangos]

true that,but really it wasnt possible for a longbow arrow to pierce plate armour at standard battlefield distances.

 

[Beastro]

true that,but really it wasnt possible for a longbow arrow to pierce plate armour at standard battlefield distances.

Being too obvious with your prodding.

 

[Ludo Lense]

"VDing it up"

I think we agree more than disagree yet you sound very contentious.

Also keep in mind that every system and mechanic needs to have proper content to highlight the interaction thus there is a limit to how much can be crammed into a game to cater to every approach. For example, I hate weight limits when they are there just for "realism" sake and at no point do they offer meaningful gameplay beyond stopping my adventure to go sell garbage.

 

[Beastro]

I partially agree to that. Japan still has some of that "master-servant" mentality imbued to them, but nowadays hardly anyone comes up with something new. To be more specific, since after WW2, everyone copies America. We watch american TV and try to make american TV. We listen to american music and try to make american music. We play american games and try to make american games. We try to imitate all sorts of american habits. In sum, we wanna be americans, just like most people wanted to be roman when the Roman Empire ruled the world. So I think it's kinda unfair to imply only Japan does that and put the blame on their culture. Maybe if they didn't lose the war it would be different, maybe if it was them who bombed the USA and fucked them up they were gonna be the ones copying Japan. Just my 2 cents.

The Japanese have that more pronounced in a very pragmatic way.

Once it's clear a certain way is superior they quickly adopt it, and adapt it, into their culture if only because it's clear it works better. The Meiji period revolved around them acknowledging that Western society was superior, so they took as much of it as they could and made it Japanese until WWII when they then acknowledged that Western government produced superior and so adopted and adapted it.

Compare that to the Chinese who actively ignored and undermined reform, because they were the center of the universe and everyone emulated them, not the other way around until they were broken and the West's bitch.

I find it all the more amusing post-WWII comparing them to the Germans, who have since then spent their existence as a culture haunted, tormented and remorseful for WWII (and far beyond that going overboard) while the Japanese just don't give a fuck what they did to Eastern Asia and have only changed to make themselves better.

 

[baturinsky]

Katana is a kind of sabre - light blade intended to cut cloth and flesh, not crushing through shields, armour and bones.
Which is why it stayed relevant later than broadswords.

 

[Kahr]

I find it all the more amusing post-WWII comparing them to the Germans, who have since then spent their existence as a culture haunted, tormented and remorseful for WWII (and far beyond that going overboard) while the Japanese just don't give a fuck what they did to Eastern Asia and have only changed to make themselves better.

The US establishment isn't in the hands of a chinese/korean banking elite as far as i know.

 

[Beastro]

Katana is a kind of sabre - light blade intended to cut cloth and flesh, not crushing through shields, armour and bones.
Which is why it stayed relevant later than broadswords.

I find the lack of evolution in the design a sign of that as well. European swords turned into a multi-tool with the blade being only one of the many pieces of it that could be used against an opponent or used to better protect the hand of the wielder.

People like to focus on the katana's blade, but it's guard is its worst feature. It doesn't even protect the hand all that well.

 

[DraQ]

"VDing it up"

I think we agree more than disagree yet you sound very contentious.

Admittedly I wasn't sure of your stance so I opted for Codex's standard "flame the fuck out of every-thing/-one, then discuss! with the survivors" approach.

Hope you don't mind.

Also keep in mind that every system and mechanic needs to have proper content to highlight the interaction thus there is a limit to how much can be crammed into a game to cater to every approach. For example, I hate weight limits when they are there just for "realism" sake and at no point do they offer meaningful gameplay beyond stopping my adventure to go sell garbage.

True, OTOH the game without an idea of what to do with its systems will suck either way and going with simulationism at least gives it a chance to hit the mark by accident.
Also, do you like selling tons of garbage loot in any case? With limited inventory you at least have some disincentive to picking everything up (even if it's limited to metagame) meaning you have less garbage to sell.

 

[Jrpgfan]

I partially agree to that. Japan still has some of that "master-servant" mentality imbued to them, but nowadays hardly anyone comes up with something new. To be more specific, since after WW2, everyone copies America. We watch american TV and try to make american TV. We listen to american music and try to make american music. We play american games and try to make american games. We try to imitate all sorts of american habits. In sum, we wanna be americans, just like most people wanted to be roman when the Roman Empire ruled the world. So I think it's kinda unfair to imply only Japan does that and put the blame on their culture. Maybe if they didn't lose the war it would be different, maybe if it was them who bombed the USA and fucked them up they were gonna be the ones copying Japan. Just my 2 cents.

The Japanese have that more pronounced in a very pragmatic way.

Once it's clear a certain way is superior they quickly adopt it, and adapt it, into their culture if only because it's clear it works better. The Meiji period revolved around them acknowledging that Western society was superior, so they took as much of it as they could and made it Japanese until WWII when they then acknowledged that Western government produced superior and so adopted and adapted it.

Compare that to the Chinese who actively ignored and undermined reform, because they were the center of the universe and everyone emulated them, not the other way around until they were broken and the West's bitch.

I find it all the more amusing post-WWII comparing them to the Germans, who have since then spent their existence as a culture haunted, tormented and remorseful for WWII (and far beyond that going overboard) while the Japanese just don't give a fuck what they did to Eastern Asia and have only changed to make themselves better.

But what nation that didn't adopt superior things from other cultures has survived or atleast succeeded as a nation?

Until the late 18th century Japan was a very underdeveloped country in terms of technology. If they wanted to survive or become a powerful country that was the natural thing to do at the time. They developed really fast and became a first world country because of that. Losing the war and having the USA "help" them rebuild their country only strengthened that mentality. So in my opinion it has more to do with being smart(or not dumb for that matter) and with certain circumstances than with their particular culture like many people like to state.

 

[mutonizer]

Just transform the process into a simple potentially interesting mechanic if "garbage to sell" is part of the game while removing the tedious and unrealistic.

For example, you can go ultra simulationist but have some kind of henchman system that you can either rent after you clean up an area to basically pack shit up for you, or who are actually with you with a cart, mules and shit, making that inventory important in some more strategical situations, while your own characters's inventory is important in tactical ones.

Again, I'd mention GURPS, but GURPS: Dungeon Fantasy has everything needed to handle proper loot whoring and shit. Heck, I read some players setting up entire caravan routes to help clean up their loot from a dungeon run, down to nails on doors, marble floors and shit.
After that, it can be as involved or laidback as anyone wants.

 

[Mustawd]

Fuck, you guys really don't know the first thing about Chinese history. But by all means, carry on.

(Or, if you like, here's an easy-to-read primer: http://www.amazon.com/China-History-John-Keay/dp/0465025188 )

On China is also a good one. It gives a brief history based on the view of global politics.